Talk:Punjab/Archive 3

Treaties
Many treaties on Punjab and Kashmir are linked.

Various scholars have written on the Instrument of Accession (Jammu and Kashmir), The Treaty of Lahore (9 March 1846) and the Treaty of Amritsar (16 March 1846).

Maharaja gulab Singh originally worked for the Sikh Empire. But then betrayed the Sikh empire by siding with the East India Company in the First Anglo-Sikh War. His name is mentioned in the treaty of Lahore too. He collected Taxes for the East India Company and the money was then given by him to the East India Company.

The Treaty of Lahore (9 March 1846) and the Treaty of Amritsar (16 March 1846) lapsed under Article 7 of the |Indian Independence Act 1947. The Act was passed by the British Parliament on July 18, 1947 to assent to the creation of the independent states of India and Pakistan. The aforementioned Article 7 provides that, with the lapse of His Majesty’s suzerainty over the Indian states, all treaties, agreements, obligations, grants, usages and sufferance’s will lapse.

The 7 year old Maharaja Duleep Singh Bahadur (Sikh) was under the control of the East India company when he sign The Treaty of Lahore on 9 March 1846 which gave Jammu and Kashmir and its people to the East India Company.

Under the British legal system and international law a treaty signed by the 7 year old Maharaja Duleep Singh Bahadur and under duress is not valid. (The International Court of Justice has stated that there "can be little doubt, as is implied in the Charter of the United Nations and recognized in Article 52 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, that under contemporary international law an agreement concluded under the threat or use of force is void.)

We need to add a section on the impact on the removal of Article 370 of the Indian constitution on The Instrument of Accession too.

Various scholars have written on these treaties, for example Alistair Lamb disputed the validity of the Instrument of Accession in his paper |'The Myth of Indian Claim to JAMMU & KASHMIR –– A REAPPRAISAL'

Where he writes ''"While the  date,  and  perhaps  even  the  fact,  of  the accession to India of the State of Jammu  &  Kashmir in  late  October  1947  can  be  questioned,  there  is  no  dispute  at  that time   any   such   accession   was   presented   to   the   world at large   as   conditional   and provisional. It  was  not  communicated  to  Pakistan  at  the outset  of  the  overt  Indian  intervention  in  the  State  of Jammu  &  Kashmir,  nor  was  it presented  in  facsimile  to  the  United  Nations  in  early  1948  as  part  of  the  initial  Indian reference  to  the  Security  Council.  The  1948  White  Paper  in  which  the  Government  of India set out its formal case in respect to the State of Jammu & Kashmir, does not contain the  Instrument  of  Accession  as  claimed  to  have  been  signed  by  the  Maharajah: instead, it reproduces  an  unsigned  form  of  Accession  such  as,  it  is  implied,  the  Maharajah  might have  signed. To  date   no   satisfactory   original   of   this   Instrument   as   signed   by  the Maharajah has  been  produced: though  a  highly  suspect  version,  complete  with  the false date  26 October 1947,  has  been  circulated  by  the  Indian  side  since  the  1960s. On the present evidence  it  is  by  no means clear  that  the  Maharaja  ever  did  sign an Instrument of Accession.''

Indian troops actually began overtly to intervene in the State’s affairs on the morning of 27 October 1947

''It is  now  absolutely  clear  that  the  two  documents  (a) the Instrument of Accession, and  (c)  the  letter  to  Lord  Mountbatten,  could  not  possibly  have  been  signed  by the Maharajah  of Jammu  &  Kashmir on 26 October 1947. The earliest possible time and date for their signature would have to be the afternoon of 27 October 1947. During 26 October 1947 the  Maharajah  of Jammu  &  Kashmir was  travelling  by  road  from  Srinagar  to Jammu. (The Kashmir State Army divisions and the Kashmiri people had already turned on him and he was on the run and had no authority in the state). His new Prime  Minister,  M.C.  Mahajan,  who  was  negotiating  with  the Government of India,  and  the  senior  Indian  official  concerned  in  State  matters,  V.P.  Menon, were still in New  Delhi  where  they  remained  overnight,  and  where  their  presence  was  noted  by many observers. There was  no  communication  of  any  sort  between  New Delhi and the travelling Maharajah. Menon and  Mahajan  set  out  by  air  from  New  Delhi  to  Jammu  at about  10.00 a.m.  on  27  October; and  the  Maharajah  learned  from  them  for  the  first time the result of his Prime Minister’s negotiations in New Delhi in the early afternoon of that day. The key  point,  of  course,  as has already been noted above, is that it is now obvious that  these  documents  could  only  have  been  signed  after  the  overt  Indian  intervention  in the  State  of Jammu  &  Kashmir on 27 October 1947. When the  Indian  troops  arrived  at  Srinagar  air  field,  that State   was   still   independent. Any  agreements   favourable   to   India   signed   after   such intervention  cannot  escape  the  charge  of  having  been  produced  under  duress. (The International Court of Justice has stated that there "can be little doubt, as is implied in the Charter of the United Nations and recognized in Article 52 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, that under contemporary international law an agreement concluded under the threat or use of force is void.)"''

Additionally Maharaja was on the run. The prevailing international practice on the recognition of state governments is based on the following three factors: first, the government’s actual control of the territory; second, the government’s enjoyment of the support and obedience of the majority of the population; third, the government’s ability to stake the claim that it has a reasonable expectation of staying in power. The situation on the ground demonstrates that the Maharaja was not in control of the state of Jammu and Kashmir and was fleeing for his life and almost all of Kashmir was under the control of the Kashmiri people and the Kashmiri Army that had rebelled against him. His own troops had turned on him. With regard to the Maharaja’s control over the local population, it is clear that he enjoyed no such control or support. The people of Kashmir had been sold by the East India Company and he charged them high taxes thetefore the Kashmir Muslims, Hindus Pandits and Buddhists hated him. Furthermore, the state’s armed forces were in total disarray after most of the men turned against him and he was running for his life. Finally, it is highly doubtful that the Maharaja could claim that his government had a reasonable chance of staying in power without Indian military intervention. This assumption is substantiated by the Maharaja’s letters.

Many of these treaties apply to Jammu and Kashmir. The | Kashmir conflict is already on Wikipedia. It is internationally recognized as a disputed territory under various United United Nations resolutions that are already listed on Wikipedia |United Nations Security Council Resolution 47, |United Nations Security Council Resolution 39,|UN mediation of the Kashmir dispute, |United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan. There is a lot of documentation on Jammu and Kashmir in the UN | archives already. If you look at the page | Kashmir conflict, it already contains sections on the "Indian view", "Pakistani view", "Chinese view", "Kashmiri views". May be we could do something like that with these treaty pages. The Treaty of Lahore was signed in 9 March 1846 and the Treaty of Amritsar 16 March 1846. They predate the creation of both modern day India and Pakistan. The Treaty of Lahore was signed between the Sikh Empire and the British government. It is an international treaty and comes under international law. Johnleeds1 (talk) 11:36, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Aurat (word)
Articles for deletion/Aurat (word) has been relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Bookku (talk) 07:44, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 16 June 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus. The discussion below splinters, and may need to be addressed with an RFC or two: (1) is the geographic region the primary topic for "Punjab" or is there no primary topic and (2) if there's no primary topic, what is the best title for the article about the geographic region. --  JHunterJ (talk) 11:18, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

– This is suitable for a disambiguation page. Punjab often refers to either the Indian or Pakistani state. Having this page merely named "Punjab" only confuses readers, as the title does not make it clear which "Punjab" is it referring to (one of the states, or the region). A much better solution is to rename this page to Punjab Region, as that is what it refers to, a region named "Punjab". The states named "Punjab" are not named just "Punjab" for this reason. That would be too ambiguous. Instead, searching "Punjab" should lead to Punjab's disambiguation page, where the correct page can be selected. I-82-I (talk) 01:22, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Punjab → Punjab Region
 * Punjab (disambiguation) → Punjab
 * Support No clear WP:PRIMARY TOPIC, disambiguation page should be at the base name.--Ab207 (talk) 13:06, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 13:31, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose as misleading. Instead of 'Punjab Region', which seems to imply some sort of official entity which does not exist, how about using The Punjab, the traditional name for the region? It is more WP:concise, and avoids creating the impression of an actual regional entity, which has not been constituted since partition. RGloucester  — ☎ 13:39, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:CONCISE. Khestwol (talk) 13:56, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
 * How is this not concise? Punjab could refer to one of three places, so Punjab region is as concise as we can get without leading to ambiguity. I-82-I &#124; TALK.  10:04, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment what about Punjab (geographical region)? That seems to address the concern that it could be mistaken as a unit of government. I-82-I (talk) 04:55, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Support as Punjab has too many different meanings, including two modern provinces, and there is not clear primary topic.--Bob not snob (talk) 07:11, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Support the article was previously known as Punjab region and then Punjab (region). I cannot recall who changed it to Punjab based on academia referring to the undivided area as Punjab and not Punjab region. The term Punjab region is more suitable than Punjab as it implies we are talking about an area and not a unified entity. This would be similar to the Balkans article which covers different political divisions.User:Malikhpur (talk) 09:19, 17 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose: Punjab is a geographical region. There are separate articles for Punjab in Indian side and Punjab in Pakistani side. So there is no confusion. The other things related to Punjab can me described in Punjab (disambiguation)> —  The Chunky urf  Al Kashmiri    (Speak🗣️ or Write✍️)  08:22, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * There is confusion. As you stated, there are articles on the region, as well as the Indian and Pakistani states. Since people could be looking for any of these (and they often are), we should send the there, to choose the right article. I-82-I &#124; TALK.  10:04, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose. No matter what the political entities may be today, the Punjab remains as a single region, as it has been since time immemorial. If it is moved then it should be to Punjab (region), as there is no such entity as Punjab Region. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:08, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Punjab is a single region, but has different states from different countries in it. Many people are looking for these articles, and therefore should be presented with the opportunity to choose those. I-82-I &#124; TALK.  10:04, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Which is why we have a hatnote. But the primary topic is the region as a whole. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:46, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose - it's a nice WP:CONCEPTDAB. If it must be moved, The Punjab isn't a bad suggestion, certainly better than the proposed title. Red   Slash  20:48, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Note that the Punjab is also commonly used to refer to the provinces and states, so this is pretty pointless and contravenes WP:THE in any case, as the definite article is almost never capitalised in running text. -- Necrothesp (talk)
 * I do not think I've ever seen the contemporary sub-national entities referred to as 'The Punjab'. 'The Punjab' clearly refers to the whole historical region, not to either sub-national division. I am aware of WP:THE, but considering WP:NATURAL, the use of the definite article is the most concise way to disambiguate this article. RGloucester  — ☎ 14:27, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The British province was most certainly referred to as the Punjab (e.g. Governor of the Punjab). And that existed for longer than the modern states yet have done and is just as notable. So even without WP:THE, it would be no disambiguation at all to retitle it The Punjab. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:25, 19 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Strong Support The disambiguation page provides a very relevant information with their respective links. Punjab region, Punjab state of India, Punjab provinces in Pakistan, other provinces in Afghanistan and also the Old historical geo-region and its provinces are very well mentioned. Any one who is reads wikipedia will find the disambiguation page more helpful than the punjab region page as the disambiguation includes the Punjab region as well as others too. This make wikipedia more useful and ease.for access to information to the users. I highlu support that Disambiguation page of Punjab gets easy access when one searches just 'Punjab'. Taal Saptak (talk) 01:52, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Support Per @Taal Saptak Ytpks896 (talk) 21:00, 22 June 2020 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Oppose I don't think adding "region" to the original name makes a whole lot of difference, but that's just my take. It's a matter of semantics.  Mar4d  ( talk ) 07:38, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

"Punjab (Province)" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Punjab (Province). The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 December 8 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Soumya-8974 (he) talk contribs subpages 08:43, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

"Punjab, region" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Punjab, region. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 December 8 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Soumya-8974 (he) talk contribs subpages 08:45, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

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