Talk:Punti–Hakka Clan Wars

Untitled
While it is quite true that there were many conflicts between Min Nam people and Hakka, the topic of Punti-Hakka Clan Wars is limited to describe the bloody conflict in Kwangtung, especially, in the Pearl River Delta, in Sze Yup, in Taishan in 19th century. Some described the war with causalty of 20,000,000. It is no good to hijack the term to describe something beyond it. HenryLi 12:47, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

The text of this article is disjointed and ungrammatical, and needs to be cleaned up. 202.55.158.187

Punti and Cantonese
The term Cantonese is the result of poor transliteration in English. Canton is the English word for both Guangdong (province) and Guangzhou (provincial capital of Guangdong). When the word Canton is made into the English adjective Cantonese, it could mean Guangdongese and Guangzhouese. The language people commonly refer to as Cantonese is in fact Guangzhouese. Taishanese people speak Taishanese, a language that is unintelligible with Guangzhouese. Many Taishan people in China still do not speak or understand Guangzhouese. This is the norm in the whole of China concerning regional spoken languages. It is acceptable to say that Taishanese is one of the Guangdongese languages, but then so is Hakka. The conflict is thus not a conflict between a Cantonese (meaning Guangdongese) speaking people against a non-Cantonese speaking people as both peoples spoke Cantonese meaning Guangdongese, be it one spoke Taushanese and the other Hakka. Neither party could also be described as Cantonese (meaning Guangzhouese) speaking people as neither were Guangzhouese speakers at home.

If not about language differences, then what was the conflict about? The conflict was simply a conflict of economics. The Hakkas were seen as late comers who stole the show in a declining economy. 86.155.215.165 19:37, 11 November 2007 (UTC)


 * There's nothing call Guangdongese nor Guangzhouese. Canton is the capital (省城) of Kwangtung.  The speech of Canton, Cantonese, is also the representative of Kwangtung.  It is in fact the native languages along the course of West River, North River, East River and Pearl River are quite similar to the speech in Canton as there are frequent communication, trade or other activities.  Hence, the group of language is named Cantonese.  Toishan (Hoishan), however, is not one the course of these rivers.  The communication is not as frequent as those along the rivers.  Toishanese is not mutually intelligible to other Cantonese speech and remarkably distinct.  Toishanese is a remote branch of Cantonese.


 * Hakkas are originated from the hilly borderland among three provinces, namely Kwangtung, Hokkien, and Kiangsi. When massive new comers migrate to a new land, there are inevitably conflicts with indigenous people.  Both groups would compete for limited resources.  If the population of both groups grow quickly, the competition reaches fierce.  It was what happened in the 19th century, Punti vs Hakka.&mdash; HenryLi (Talk) 15:21, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Who were the aggressors in this conflict? It is wrong to suggest that the Guangzhouese (yes, a word invented in accord to English grammar) speech is representative of Kwangtung (by which one assumes you mean Guangdong) because Teochiu (Chaozhou) is also in Guangdong and people there speak Teochiu which is a Minnan (Hokkien) speech. 86.140.39.102 (talk) 04:19, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

HenryLi, please note by the time of this supposed conflict, the Hakkas have been in the location for several hundred years, and are not new comers. The earliest people from these lands have largely migrated to Guangxi and Vietnam over time, or have intermarried with Han invaders, so the "Puntis" are not the true natives of these lands. They are only "Puntis" because they call themselves "Puntis". Of course, with human and political development now, the whole of China is for all the Chinese, and there is in reality no such a term as "Punti". The conflict was more likely due to jealousy on the part of "Puntis" who saw their "Hakka" neighbours becoming more successful than them. 213.1.15.144 (talk) 03:08, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

guess somebody has to clean this up...
So many things wrong with this page....It's too late now to start fixing it. I'm not in college or getting paid, so someone else is most likely to alter it. I'm unpaid, so go to hell if you want the truth for free. Not happening. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.151.139.15 (talk) 00:42, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Not only a clean up, there is no references in the article. It quotes a figure of 1 million people killed. Well, a million people is a lot of people, and quite unbelievable. The article also says the Hakka people helped the Imperial troops to "beat" up the Puntis, but it was the Hakkas who were in rebellion against the Qing Empire. I hardly think the Imperial troops will trust the Hakkas. The Taishan (Toisan) people are of course "Puntis" of Taishan, but they are not "Punti" anywhere else in Guangdong. I think the term Punti-Hakka Clan Wars is itself incorrect. In fact Cantonese (meaning Guangzhouhua) speakers regarded (and still do regard) the Taishanese people as a rather rustic and backward people. 213.1.15.144 (talk) 02:54, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I think the article has to be largely deleted due to unreferenced claims. 213.1.15.144 (talk) 02:58, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

土客械斗
I think the Chinese name for this conflict sums up the situation. Note the term 土 and not "Punti" is used. 土 refers to rustic peoples, who are hot-headed, refusing to listen to reason, who are bullies and prone to using violence, eg 土匪, 土皇帝. It is easy to see who the aggressors were. 213.1.15.144 (talk) 03:21, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

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