Talk:Purple Heart/Archive 1

Medal Picture
Husnock, I personally think the gif image you just added might not be a good idea. The ribbon and the medal look blue, IMHO. What we could do is put the medal device at top, leave the ribbon in place and use a picture of George Washington later in the article (a different one). Zscout370 18:08, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Wiki crashed on me when I was experimenting with the images. They still need to be moved around the make the page looked good.  I'm get server and page errors when ever I try to save on large articles like this one.  Feel free to finish the job I started.  Thanks! -Husnock 18:31, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * The job is finished. Zscout370 18:38, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Really, I think this is perfect (now). I found a picture of the reverse and I put the picture of that and the ribbon together in a small table. Zscout370 11:19, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The pictures look great. Thanks -Husnock 02:00, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Orgins
I once read that the name purple heart originated from the use of purple heart (the wood) for cannon frames, because it was the only wood strong enough to stand up to the repeated blasts. If anyone can validate this please add it. Either way there should be at least some mention that purple heart is also a type of wood, maybe a line at the top that says, "it's also a type of wood" with wood linking. Vicarious 19:11, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Offering this without comment: http://www.allwords.com/word-Purple%20Heart.html - HVS

Alternate Meaning
'Purple Heart' is also the slang name for triangular blue Drinamyl amphetamines commonly used as recreational drugs in the 1960s. I have the feeling that this piece of information belongs in a different article with a disambiguation pointer in this one, but have not yet found a suitable place to deposit it. If anyone knows a place... ThomasHarte 11:20, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Bot Needed
I came across Category:Recipients of the Purple Heart medal today and realized that it did not list very many people. I figured it would be a clever thing to do to search Wikipedia for articles that contain the phrase "Purple Heart" and add any recipients to the category. Well, we have hundreds of articles on Purple Heart recipients. I have added the top 10 pages worth of Google hits, but now I'm wondering if someone could write a bot to do this. The automated process would have to take into accont that the award is linked to from non-bio articles, such as books, lists of medals, etc. We don't want them all tagged, just the people. Can anyone help with the creation of such a bot? Johntex\talk 20:48, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Supply & Manufacture
The Operation_Downfall page, and this source page says that the current supply of Purple Hearts was manufactured for WWII, and they have been using that stock ever since, with some limited manufacture in '76 and '00. There are supposedly about ~120,000 left from WWII. Should this be mentioned, assuming it's true? Also, who manufactures them? Identity0 09:34, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Recipients
If there's a list (I couldn't find one), might add this name: Lt Annie Fox, on 7 Dec 1941 first woman awarded. Trekphiler 15:13, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Merge Notice
I OPPOSE the merge with Badge of Military Merit. My reasons are listed on the talk page of the Badge of Military Merit. -Husnock 23:47, 10 January 2006 (UTC)


 * OK. Relax. I added the merge request, and just added another merge notice with Wound Chevron before reading this talk page. I was interested by the common thread of awards for wounds received, as I had always just assumed that the Purple Heart had continuously existed since Washington's time, and had always meant the same thing. Maybe an entirely separate article about Timeline for U.S. military awards or a global article about Awards for soldiers with wounds received in battle would be more appropriate, but I put the banners up to get discussion flowing, not to panic anyone. McNeight 03:01, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Contradiction
"During the Vietnam War, Korean War and World War II, the Purple Heart was often awarded "on the spot", with occasional entries made into service records, but this was often not the case."

"First part of the sentence says the purple heart was often awared.....this was often not the case"

I would recommend a clarification on this point. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.232.230.198 (talk • contribs) 13:22, 2 August 2005.


 * Almost positive the "often not the case" part refers to the "occasional entries made into service records." 70.172.212.3 20:25, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Stubby the Dog
The Sergeant Stubby trivia comes from the Wikipedia article on him that was featured on the main page. Can we put it back in? MamaGeek Joy 11:42, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I honestly have never heard of any regulation or procedure that allows a Purple Heart to be awarded to an animal. I verify these at the Military Personnel Records Center and have heard many rumors and tales of such things but have never seen an actual case.  We had someone try and get one for a horse one time, and it went all the way to Alexandria, VA which is where the Army Awards Determination Panel meets.  They laughed it out of the office and actually wrote on the response letter "quit horsing around"!  I think someone might of "honorarly" bestowed a PH on a dog but it was certianly be no means an offical award and shouldn't really be listed as such in this article. -Husnock 15:25, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Stubby was a rather specialcase: It was officially ranked as a sergeant, despite being a dog. SYSS Mouse 19:54, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Denial examples
For the record, those examples are straight from the regulation regarding issuance of the Purple Heart on file at the Military Personnel Records Center. There was an anon ip user concerned that it was original research. -Husnock 22:17, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Response from Armydude06
Thanks for the note. The Military Personnel Records Center is a respository, NOT the proponent for Awards....only a collection of awards. Clearly the information you cite is also quoted from 600-8, pull down the regulation and you will see this is the case. So it is odd, that you would censor my edit and cite quoting from a source as being against Wikipedia protocol. I am an active duty Colonel, i have been deployed to 5 combat theatres and appreciate your current service, but please do not misleadingly lead folks to believe that criteriaÂ for approval and disapproval for this award are adjudicated and validated by a collection center in Saint Louis, when they are in fact dictated by the leadership of the Armed forces in the form of legal regularions, in his case AR 600-8.Â I am a combat arms officer and feel your criteria is off base. That being said, you have taken the time to do what few others would. Great site and hats off for you to taking the time to work on all of the se articles. -email response 11Oct06


 * First issue with your statement is that it is an established fact that NPRC is empowered by the Department of the Army to verify Purple Heart entitlement based on info from service records. The Military Personnel Records Center has a published memo, known as an 1865 memo, which gives denial and award examples of the Purple Heart which is based on regs from all the servies (not just the Army).  In my line of work I have verified and denied hundreds of Purple Heart cases.  So, that is where that source comes from.  Contrary to popular belief, we are far more than just a warehouse of records.  We have legal authority to determine information from such records and, in cases of some records from before 1939, NARA actually owns them completly.


 * Second issue you bring up is the "censorship". Your info was not censored, rather it appeared you completely blanked the section on denial exampels and replaced it with a list cut and paste from the Army reg.  This article is not meant to be a mirror copy of the Army regulation, it is based on several sources only one of which is the Army reg.  Indeed, the list you provided was already in the article, it was simply worded differently to incorporate the denial examples.


 * Third and last issue was that your edits completely wiped out the existing syntax and you signed your user name in the article itself. Please be aware of the "Show preview" button on the article.  That can be easily understood, as you are a new user.  Please review our guidelines and instructions and edit some more in the future.  Post to talk pages if you have questions, most users will not answer or appreciate e-mails sent to private, personal addresses. -Husnock 20:42, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, am not sure how to use this user talk thing but as i said earlier, first few times on this site. Clearly no intent to wipe out anything or take credit for your hard work. on the contrary, i applauded your efforts. On some of your other points, i was under the belief that the Army Regulation is the proponent for this award, even in the other services as the only other governing regulation is an Executive Order which only authorizes its creation and does not prescribe the conditons for issue and award. I am in combat and in the fight, we had six purple hearts that went out to our troopers today alone, so getting this right is really less about having some debate with a guy who clearly knows the ins and outs of this website and knows a whole lot about the awards process. About a private email, i thought that was the more professional way to discuss this with you -- especially since i didnt realize my stuff had edited yours, when i checked it was still your original text and i just figured you read my note and disagreed. Sorry about any ruffled feathers. Thanks. -unsigned comment by User:Armydude06
 * No feather ruffling has occured, this is how new users learn things which is good. Also, about 9 months ago we had certian users who were going around blanking several medals articles and replacing them with cut and pasted text from Army regs.  It got very old very fast and since then we have been on the instant lookout for such users, some of whom use sockpuppets.  So, you had the bad luck to be on the tale end of that.  Thanks for the work over in the sandbox, maybe we'll bump into eachother.  P.S.- Sign posts by using the term "- ~ ~ ~ ~". -Husnock 21:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Great, ok, did not know about the e-vandals earlier in the year. I even came back and signed the comment, now that i know how.  Are you also in Baghdad?-Armydude06 18:53, 14 October 2006 (UTC)-"
 * We are in a remote location, actually. The Navy has said not to discolse where due to political sensativities with the host nation. -Husnock 20:56, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Criteria section cleanup
The section should probably be written as an encyclopedia, not as a lengthy recitation of a source document. Thoughts? --TeaDrinker 03:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Most awarded under trivia
Is there an actual source that can be cited for this? Curious because I'm working on an article for someone with 7, but don't want to say it's the second highest number without a citation.Horrorshowj 22:47, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Potential Inaccuracy
Moved here from WP:ODM by Woody (talk) 13:50, 27 February 2008 (UTC). Added to ODM on 2008-02-02 by with these edits: diff. The Purple Heart wiki article mentions (under the "History" sub-heading) that the Purple Heart medal was limited to qualifications "subsequent to 5 April 1917, the day before the United States entered World War I" and also mentions (under the "Retroactive presentations" sub-heading) that "The Purple Heart, however, is retroactive to 1917 meaning that it may be presented to veterans as far back as the First World War." But this is not entirely correct. There were veterans who served as far back as the Civil War who were awarded Purple Hearts because they were still alive and had applied for them after the Purple Heart was reinstated in 1932. In "VFW Magazine," Feb 2004, Fred Borch and Steve Kupecky state the following: "The War Department decided in 1932 that any veteran who had been wounded in any Army campaign could apply for the new decoration. As a result, about 10 Union veterans from the Civil War applied for--and received--the Purple Heart. So did a small number of soldiers who had served in the Indian campaigns, Spanish-American War (1898), Philippines War (1899-1902), Boxer Rebellion in China (1900) and the Punitive Expedition into Mexico (1916).  Several Union veterans proudly wore their Purple Hearts at the 75th reunion of the Battle of Gettysburg in 1938." Here is an online reference to the article: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0LIY/is_5_91/ai_113304762

What about
What about the Military Order of the Purple Heart? Philly jawn (talk) 15:08, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Lack of Citations
This article suffers from an overall lack of citations, made the more glaring by its length and (apparent) depth. While there are a few references, they appear to relate to sidelights and small issues, while the main part of the article consists of strings of unsourced statements (some of them rather dubious). Does anybody have real sources to contribute? --Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 15:54, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * NPRC has been granted authority to verify Purple Heart entitlements from service records as well as the handling of people who were awarded the Purple Heart who have service records which are now "archival" (older than 62 years). The release procedures and guidance of NPRC was the primary source that I have used when adding most of the information to this article.  The rest of it appears to have come directly from the Army regulations (in fact someone once simply cut and pasted the entire Army reg into this article; I attempted a while back to weed out the direct pastes).  The sources should be pretty obvious.  Which statements did you consider "dubious"?  I can probably tell you where the background material on them came from. -OberRanks (talk) 18:08, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Friendly Fire
So are Purple Hearts awarded for injuries sustained from friendly fire during battle? --Mcginnly 12:15, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The awarding authority makes the determination. Retroactive presentations are extremely rare and are usually denied.  This also something that has only really been around since the Gulf War.  Before that, the other side had to be shooting at you.  I've seen plenty of Vietnam/Korea/WWII friendly fire cases denied the Purple Heart whent eh same kind of incident today would probably be awarded the medal.  Its really all up to the service department and who is sitting on the reviewing panel. -Husnock 21:51, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * For one example of a rare retroactive friendly fire award, see the article for James Garner. Orville Eastland (talk) 00:59, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

It should also be noted that during the WWII and the Korean War that severe frostbite was considered an acceptable wound for the Purple Heart. Clearly the regulations today prohibits frostbite as an acceptable wound. Many veterans have appealed to the Board of Military Records Correction and been awarded the Purple Heart for frostbite.

Robert Mueller
It says he has got one on his page. Should he be listed under Notablle Recipients? -- Scythre Talk Contribs 06:27, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Unsupported Statement in History
The actual order includes the phrase, "Let it be known that he who wears the Military Order of the Purple Heart has given of his blood in the defense of his homeland and shall forever be revered by his fellow countrymen." This statement is not supported by any portion of the Washington Papers available via loc.gov, nor does it match any account of Washington's spoken words. The quote appears to be the title card from a 1944 movie starring Dana Andrews, and the source is of dubious authorship.Washhq (talk) 17:55, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Archival Records are closed to the Purple Heart
There are several references in the article that those wounded and families of those wounded from World War I and World War II may apply for this medal. As of 2008, this is no longer the case. Military service records older than 62 years (which is most if not all of the WWII and WWI files) have been transferred from the U.S. Army to the NPRC. Archival records are not updated with new medals and can no longer be transferred back to the military departments for determination of the Purple Heart. The standard procedure for people wanting Purple Hearts added or verified from such records is to respond that the medal may be privately purchased. The only exception if the veteran him/herself is writing for the medal and in such a case it must ALREADY be on file in either the original service record or the reconsturction folder (1973 National Archives Fire). I will update the article when I have time, but right now there is incorrect data here about these older records. -207.245.178.155 (talk) 18:50, 26 March 2008 (UTC):I also should point that one of the sections at the bottom of the article was cut and pasted directly from Army regulations and might be considered a copyright violation or, at the very least, un-original text copied from another website. -207.245.178.155 (talk) 18:55, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you, as a general rule if its from an Army regulation it is considered a government source and in the public domain.--Kumioko (talk) 19:00, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The "Criteria" section, with maybe the excpetion of one paragraph, was copied word for word straight out of Army regulations. I don't think it should remain as such since there has been much discussion on this site about copying and pasting medals regulations into the articles about medals, i.e. mostly that its a bad idea and constitues a "mirror" to an existing text or website.  Talk:Awards_and_decorations_of_the_United_States_military seems to sum it up pretty well although I agree thats its not a copyright violation, just very bad form. -OberRanks (talk) 19:24, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

BTW, the Army rescinded this policy but the Navy and Air Force did not. The Army will review and update the PH in archival military records for all veterans and NOK, but the Navy & Air Force will only do it for the veteran. -OberRanks (talk) 18:34, 9 May 2011 (UTC)