Talk:Radu the Handsome

Reference number 2 The Traveler: Ibn Battuta, Saudi Aramco World
The second reference listed tells a story about Ibn Battuta who lived 100 years before Radu, and Radus name is not mentioned at all in the article. A wrong link perhaps? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.24.163.238 (talk) 17:22, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

mother
did he and Vlad the impaler have the same mother ?, the Spanish wiki says otherwise. Lagonx (talk) 15:12, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Untitled
"...by the end of that year Radu was Prince once more, and remained so until the following year when he died of syphilis, and was naturally succeeded by Basarab. He left a daughter, Maria Voichiţa, who afterwards became the wife of Ştefan cel Mare."

Who wrote this crap? Radu died in 1475. But if you look just "over the fence" in the page about syphilis:

"The earliest references to the disease now known as syphilis come from the 1490s, when it broke out among German troops besieging the city of Naples. The disease swept across Europe from its early epicenter at Naples. As Jared Diamond describes it, "when syphilis was first definitely recorded in Europe in 1495, its pustules often covered the body from the head to the knees, caused flesh to fall people's faces, and led to death within a few months." In addition, the disease was more frequently fatal than it is today. Diamond concludes that "by 1546, the disease had evolved into the disease with the symptoms so well known to us today."

So, how the hell could he die in 1475 of syphilis if the syphilis was first recorded in 1494?


 * I'm by no means an expert on syphilis, but I did see a documentary on Vlad Tepes last night, and it also stated that Radu died of syphilis. Perhaps it is a case of retro-diagnosis?  Perhaps the syphilis page notes only the first times it was recorded by doctors?  I'm not sure, but I have heard that syphilis was the cause.  I didn't write the article though.


 * Also, I propose that searching for "Radu the Handsome" redirects here, as I had to do a bit of hunting to find this article. VincentValentine29 16:01, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This no longer seems plausible or necessary to me. VincentValentine29 17:34, 2 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Update--I did a bit of looking on the web about Radu, and according to one page I found so far (http://www.romerica.com/rom/hist_ad1400_70.htm) he had a homosexual lover. Though it warrants further investigation, it might merit mentioning if I can find more sources that report this.  In addition, it would seem to add credence to the syphilis argument.  In addition, the syphilis page (which I just looked at) notes that the instances cited by the first person who commented here were the first "well-recorded" and other such terms that clearly show that it was by no means necessarily existing only after 1475.


 * Also, if no one objects in the next day or so, I'll have "Radu the Handsome" redirect to the page. -VincentValentine29 20:52, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

People seem as though they keep removing anything that might even hint at the possibility of him being involved in gay relationships. From what I've seen across a few sources, this seems premature, at best. I'll do some more research and hopefully come up with some phrasing that leaves possibilities open, yet NPOV at the same time. VincentValentine29 15:33, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

The "popular culture" section begins "Radu features in the game Legendary Warriors" but the "legendary warriors" link goes to a movie with the same name that does not seem to be related to the game. I am not familiar with the game or movie, but the entry that is linked to has no mention of any characters named Radu. I am still really new to editing WP, so I'm not changing anything yet, but I think the link should be removed if this is so. (I'll try to verify the game) Uncle Chevitz (talk) 06:45, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I could not verify the existence of any such game, a lot of Vlad and Radu's contemporaries are also reffered to as characters in and linked to the same movie, I think this is an error (the game may exist, but this movie is not related to it) Uncle Chevitz (talk) 06:55, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I never heard anything about Vlad and Radu having different mothers. Where's that listed? For all I knew, they had the same mother and only one older brother.

Also, just because Syphilis wasn't listed as a disease by the time Radu died, it doesn't mean that he didn't catch it. The first outbreak may be in the 1490's but that doesn't mean it didn't exist before then. Diseases are usually not named before an actual outbreak, so the symptoms are not recognized yet. So how did they know Radu died of Syphilis? Someone must have recoreded the symptoms he had and they matched up to be Syphilis. 71.113.87.7 (talk) 00:43, 25 August 2008 (UTC)B.K.

\\\\ It is well-known the disease came to Naples by the French troops of King Charles' Italian war (1493-95), who in turn got it from Spanish sailors importing it from the New World [Christopher COLUMBUS; Sept. 12th, 1492]. Why does no one know this? García, Nuremberg/Bavaria May 1st,2009 141.75.144.63 (talk) 15:50, 7 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Syphilis was a New World disease.  Radu did not leave Romania, go to the New World decades before Columbus, catch syphilis, come back, then die of it.  Nor was the disease in Europe prior to 1492.  Reliable sources ("Dracula: Essays on the Life and Times of Vlad Tepes," edited by Kurt W. Treptow, published by East European Monographs and distributed by Columbia University Press, 1991) assure us that Radu died in battle. Vermiculite (talk) 01:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

"As a new contributor I would like to point out several things. First, the cause of his death is officially unknown. He could have gotten sick, been poisoned, any number of things. Second, there is a HUGE discrepancy between the Romanian accounts and the Ottoman. He is still hated in Romania to this day. I have never been able to find any Ottoman accounts of Radu being homosexual. It may be a long standing propaganda meant to disqualify him from the throne. In fact it was an executable offense. Even today when it is referenced by most Romanian sources it is used in a negative connotation. The only reference that I can find stems from his brother Vlad stating it as a reason to keep him from the throne and to justify his death. Other sources appear to have no first hand knowledge and are simply referencing this one. In my opinion Vlad is simply not a reliable source in this matter. Some Romanian accounts state that he has interested in blood, torture, and sex. That he was a poor military leader. The Ottomans praise him for helping them to take the city of Constantinople and he was able to oust Vlad from power through military force. He was a general of the Janissaries." 2012 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.185.40.9 (talk) 23:09, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

The title 'Bey' is used to indicate his Turkish/Ottoman name on his wiki page. Bey actually means lord or general. It is not a surname. He was a recognized Ottoman Lord of Wallachia for a time and also an Ottoman general, so Bey is his Ottoman title, not his name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.165.123.158 (talk) 23:53, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

needs clarification .......
The following:


 * Meanwhile, his brother Vlad III, due to his harsh policies towards the Boyars (who's power struggles he blamed for the state of the realm) abandoned him.

makes no sense in English. I've got a couple books that deal with Dracula, and will try to find out what this is trying to say. Currently reads that Vlad broke off battle with his brother Radu because he dealt with the Romanian nobility cruely? HammerFilmFan (talk) 03:04, 20 July 2011 (UTC) HammerFilmFan

Title of page
His Romanian name is Radu cel Frumos, which, in literal translation, is not Radu the Fair or Handsome, but Radu the Beautiful. Thus I propose to change the name of the page in 'Radu the Beautiful' — Preceding unsigned comment added by WikiUser70176 (talk) 18:47, 26 March 2023 (UTC) 02:00, 28 October 2011

Moreover, the Romanian language has its own words for "handsome" or "fair" (i.e. "arătos", "chipeş") and none of these have ever been used in any Romanian historical text/document in relation with Radu cel Frumos.WikiUser70176 (talk) 18:47, 26 March 2023 (UTC) 18:25, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "Arătos" and "Frumos" are apparently interchangeable. See this. As such, "Frumos" could also be translated to mean "handsome". So, either "beautiful" or "handsome" should do. Plus, it's best to use the name most commonly referred to. Which one is it? Radu III the Fair, Radu III the Beautiful, Radu III the Handsome, or the current title itself?  Joyson Noel  Holla at me!  19:35, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I have temporarily locked the page at this name for a week so that contributors here can work out what the name should be. I am not expressing any opinion at this point, just putting the article back to the name it was created with until you can sort out the best name. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 20:38, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Dear Joyson,

Romanian language has many adjectives that can be used interchangeably with "frumos", as the dictionary link you have provided shows. And, it is also true, Romanian is more lax than English when it comes to applying this adjective to males or females. However, the closest translation to "frumos" in English is still beautiful, as several Romanian dictionaries contend (e.g. http://dictionare.com/phpdic/roen40.php?field0=frumos, http://www.dictionarromanenglez.ro/?cuvant=frumos).

Now, this is not the only reason why I want to change the name of the page. My second reason is that Romanians, at the time of Radu's rule, they gave him precisely, intentionally this nickname that one can use to refer to female physical attractiveness because rumor at that time was that his effeminate beauty made him a favourite of the sultan. Actually there are several accounts of Radu being the lover of Mehmed II, for example the geek historian Laonic Chalcocondyl explicitly states that during his captivity Radu became the sultan's lover (I am sorry, I don't have the direct source, only second-hand references to it, so I don't know how true it is). Less explicit are Romanian historians at the time like Miron Costin who writes approx. 150 years later that Radu was an unfit voievod, who was rather spending time with a man/partner from the Balcanic Peninsula, than with the reigns of the kingdom. Others say that he was raped by the sultan or, conversley, that he converted to Islam to enjoy sexual relationships with men, Islam being more forgiving at that time than the Christian-Orthodox church. Anyway, there are more references to Radu's homosexuality and hence his somewhat effeminate nickname of "Frumos" instead of "chipes" or "aratos" as a subtle indication of his sexual preferences. But since I did not read these accounts first hand, I was reluctant to put this as the reason behind the 'frumos' atribute or in the main body of the page (although the Romanian Wikipedia indicates that his nickname of "Frumos" comes from his effeminate attributes and sexual preferences in the main body of the article.)

And lastly, although you are also correct in pointing out that enghlish-based resources seem to go for 'handsome', since he is a Romanian historical figure, albeit minor and remembered mostly as traitor to Vlad, my opinion is that his name should go as close to his original Romanian name as possible, if not the original name itself, regardless of the preferences of historians or "would-be historians" who tend to be more concerned with facts and stories than linguistic quibbles. I hold this true for any historical figure or place or battle in any language. I may be wrong, but I think referring to a person/place in only one way limits drastically the possibility of confusion. And what better way that the original language, as long as it's letters and pronunciation are not too far off from the language of the reader? On a map, there is Los Angeles, not the City of Angels, people know of Ramayana, not Rama's Journey, of Wiesbaden, not Meadow Baths etc.

Finally, 'fair' is completely unacceptable as it can be interpreted as 'just', which is not how Radu is remembered by Romanians, but rather as a traitor, as previously mentioned (what can I say, the moirés of history).

So, in conclusion. I still think that "beautiful" is more appropriate than "handsome", even if my true preference is for "Radu cel Frumos".WikiUser70176 (talk) 18:47, 26 March 2023 (UTC) 18:10, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the interesting info! Well accordingly to Wikipedia policy, a article should be named after it's most common name. Radu Cel Frumos yields 2,550,000 results. Radu the Beautiful yields 2,450,000 results. Radu the Handsome yields 268,000 results, and Radu the Fair yields the least—2,390,000 results. So in my opinion, the article's title should stay as it is. Joyson Noel Holla at me!  18:38, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Have you lost a zero off your handsome count? On my lookup I get 13600 for that, and only 90 for Beautiful "Radu cel Frumos" give over 800,000 hits, so it sounds as if it is very popular. I used " " around the names. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 09:35, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
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Radu Dragwlea Voivod
Cheers,

I'd like to make some notes.

1 - If Radu and Vlad were sons of different mothers (that is, if one of them was a bastard, like Vlad Calugarul), then we would have been told by sources that there was another bastard. Since we weren't told, then they had the same mother. Until further notice, that is.

2 - Radu did not die of syphillis. He was executed for political/personal reasons. The mistery lies in why his body was so secretively buried in Tanganu Monastery by his sister and wife, according to Radu Florescu (Dracula's Bloodline: A Florescu Family Saga, p. 19). This syphillis thing might have been because, in a Letter to Brasov from 1474, Radu Voivod suggests that he lost the battle for Stephen because he was ill, "and could hardly ride a horse". That must have been the source of Florescu's "syphillis theory". Ok, let's see maybe Radu's got hey-fever? A sore throat? (I was going to say "hemorrhoids" but I thought I shouldn't. He was a Dragulea after all, who knows he might come up at night thru my window and ... well never mind.)

3 - Radu was Mehmed II's legitimate lover. It is very strange indeed that Romanian edits are totally trying to conceal this. Homophobia? Oh, please. If you read carefully Chalcocondyl's source in Greek, you will know that he choses his words to describe the boy's status chez Mehmed: "nomizo" (according to costume), "xrestai" (to proclaim) and so on (AKHMETOVA, E., 2015, www.samlib.ru/e/elxfira_a). And, to tell you the truth, Chalc mentions the closeness between both back in 1444 (when Radu was just 5 years old). So -- Radu was taken good care personally by Mehmed since he was quite young, a protegé as early as 1444 --- and get your minds outta gutter, Radu was rekhin, a State Hostage, and a child then, so no sexual approachings until he'd reach the age of consent: for Ottomans/Persians, 12 for sexual relationships, according to AKHMETOVA, 2015.

4 - Radu was a good ruler. He was a quiet sort of person, not into fights, and impalements and so on. He just sat there and did his accountings (well, he did have to pay 12,000 forints to Mehmed yearly -- ' "Not going to make it easier for you, you pretty brat", quipped Mehmed'), and his letters and political moves and alliances. He kept Wallachia in some peace and prosperity for more than 10 years, while his brother Vlad --- whom Romanians are so attached to, and whom I admire for other reasons than these --- was into chaotic politics, and breaking treaties and faith with everyone, including the Turks whom he promised to keep up with while ruling (and, in fact, he rouse to the throne with Turkish support). THAT is cheating. Radu never broke his word: he was 100% with the Turks since the beginning of his reign, and thus he remained till his death. This is being faithful. And I don't agree if you'd say "But he was supportive of the infidel Turks!". Not only Radu was supportive of Turks, yes? Even the Hungarian king had his conversations with both Muhad and Mehmed after him. But Radu is the traitor... because he got sexually involved with nothing more, nothing less than Mehmed the Conqueror, envious peeps! And he watched as Constantinople fell in the coziness of Sultan's tent, probably having Iskandar Khebab while doing so. Now put up with this. It is indeed kind of symptomatic how a Nation ellects an impaler and a faith-breaker as a symbol, and erases + despises one who kept his land in peace, for commerce including, and all because of his sexual choices. That's so lame!

5 - Radu was NOT an Islam convert. I give you 13,000 forints if you back this allegation up with any faithful source. Google search is not valid. How would an Orthodox Wallachia swallow a Moslem Prince? This is nonsense. HOw do you think the Ottomans got all those lands? Being stupid? No no, they were rather clever. Being clever, they would not interfere with their vassals' religions, let alone Mehmed! He even created that law for which he is very well known, check his openess towards the Christians specially. So no convertion for Radu. Check Avni's ghazals as well: he is forever praising the Beautiful Frankish Young Man who has the Cross on his chest and the Zunar around his waist... <3

6 - Yes, this page should change two things: the Name and the Pic. The name is Radu III of Wallachia (aka The Handsome because he was handsome, not because he was gay), and that Picture, please. That is Not handsome. Try Pinterest for that matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rekhin veyis (talk • contribs) 00:22, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 16 November 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Page moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jerm (talk) 16:45, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Radu cel Frumos → Radu the Handsome – The present title is in Romanian. This encyclopedia is in English. The subject is predominantly known in English-language literature as Radu the Handsome, which is Radu cel Frumos in Romanian. Searching for "Radu the Handsome" "Wallachia" one gets 87 hits, whereas "Radu cel Frumos" "Wallachia" yields 36 hits. The proposed title is therefore the common name. Surtsicna (talk) 15:16, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Super   Ψ   Dro  00:07, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment. Why not Radu the Fair (compare with Philip the Fair)? Borsoka (talk) 01:28, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I did consider it but "the Handsome" is a lot more common according to Google Books search results. Surtsicna (talk) 09:07, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support. per nom. Borsoka (talk) 12:15, 22 November 2020 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.