Talk:Ramapough Mountain Indians

New York State Recognition
"New York does not have a separate process of recognition of Indian tribes and never recognized the Ramapough".This is not true. According to NY Legislative Resolution 96 dated 2/82, it states "Whereas, although New York does recognize Indian tribes in order to qualify for state run aide-programs.." http://www.wiki.ramapoughlenapenation.org/wp-docs/NYResolution.pdf Ramapoughnative (talk) 03:31, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Disagreement on State Recognition
Despite what the NCAI website states, the Ramapough are state recognized by resolution. refer to ACR3031. This is still in effect and we are recognized, or there would no longer be a NJ State Commission of Indian Affairs.

About the Commission The New Jersey Commission on Native American Affairs was created by P.L.1134, c. 295, and signed into law on December 22, 1995, by Governor Christine Todd Whitman. It was placed within the New Jersey Department of State. Later legislation changed the name to the New Jersey Commission on American Indian Affairs. Its first meeting was held on April 18, 1997 and it continues to meet regularly in Trenton, usually on the third Wednesday of the month. The Commission is covered by the Open Public Meetings Act. The Commission serves as a liaison among the tribes and the State and Federal governments. It is empowered to develop programs and projects to further understanding of New Jersey's American Indian history and culture. There are nine members of the Commission: the Secretary of State, serving ex officio, and eight public members. The public members, who are recommended by their tribes and organizations and appointed by the Governor, consist of two members from each of the following: Nanticoke Lenni-Lenape Indians, Powhatan Renape Indians, Ramapough Lenape Indian Nation, and Inter-Tribal People. Inter-Tribal People refers to American Indian people who reside in New Jersey, but are members of federally and/or State-recognized tribes in other states.

Ramapoughnative (talk) 20:10, 22 June 2017 (UTC) Steven Burton, NJ Commissioner of Indian Affairs.

Found a recent link about New Jersey still recognizing the "Ramapough Lenape Indian Nation," so I assume that's the same group. Yuchitown (talk) 23:55, 22 June 2017 (UTC)Yuchitown

Yes sir it is and i am one of the State Commissioners of Indian Affairs in New Jersey as you can see on the page. So, I would know but thank you for following up. Ramapoughnative (talk) 02:15, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Ancestry
Has their DNA been tested, and, if so, what were the results? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 08:16, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Multiple issues tag (cleanup template)
I added a multiple issues tag drawing attention to these problems with the article:


 * This article's tone or style may not reflect the encyclopedic tone used on Wikipedia.
 * This article's text uses more words than are necessary.
 * The neutrality of this article is disputed.

I made an edit (diff) that provides an example of a sentence that was not written from a neutral point of view. Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/his/him] 20:16, 21 March 2021 (UTC)


 * The multiple issues tag was removed (diff) on 20 February 2022. Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/him] 15:52, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

BIA acknowledged Ramapough as Indian in Supreme Court Appeal
'The Ramapough Lenape Indian Nation states that their members are descendants of the Lenape, although the Bureau of Indian Affairs did not find evidence of Lenape ancestry,[4][5] a decision subsequently upheld upon appeal.[6]' This is not accurate. The Writ of Centorari- in Supreme Court Appeal - RAMAPOUGH MOUNTAIN INDIANS VS GALE A. NORTON – DOCKET 011703, MAY 16TH, 2002 Page 11, the BIA aknowledged the Ramapough are Indian. I added this yesterday but it has been removed including the history. See the link of the actual docket link below. https://tputaawii-xuwii-pambiilak.org/tribes/supreme-court-of-the-united-states-petition-for-a-writ-of-certiorari/ Ramapoughnative (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 04:12, 25 March 2021 (UTC)


 * I removed it because even if it was a valid and relevant point to make, it does not belong in the lead section. See MOS:INTRO.


 * There is a place for the quote, it seems to me, within the body of the article. Part of an addition/edit in the body of the article should acknowledge that the U.S. Supreme Court denied the writ of certiorari. Then, the quote from the plaintiff's Writ needs to be placed in context.


 * Regarding the context, it seems that a central issue is that just because the government (the Bureau of Indian Affairs) denies a group's request for federal recognition as an Indigenous people, that does not mean the people, in this case the Ramapough Mountain Indians, are not an Indigenous people with continuous existence within the borders of what is now the United States. Some people might think that statement contains an irreconcilable contradiction, but it does not.


 * In other words, one might ask, what evidence is required to declare a group of people as Native Americans? Federal recognition is one type of evidence, with the specific evidence needed derived from numerous U.S. statutes, treaties with Native peoples, Department of the Interior regulations, and case law. However, one can legitimately argue, it seems to me, that scholarly research, genetic studies, oral histories, current ethnic identification of a group, and more, can be marshalled to demonstrate that a group of Native peoples alive today are, in fact, ancestors of Indigenous peoples that lived and thrived on the continent prior to European colonization, oppression, and genocide. Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/his/him] 04:52, 25 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Stated a bit differently, it might be best to not concentrate too much on federal recognition, although that is obviously important, but to draw a distinction between the different types of evidence, which might be categorized as (a) Federal recognition; (b) State recognition; (c) Scholarly recognition; (d) Self-recognition, i.e., the fact that a group of people exists who trace their lineage to Indigenous peoples living in what is now New York, New Jersey, Delaware, etc., who identify as Native peoples, and who exhibit a recognizable and unique culture. ("Unique" might not be the best word, as I understand that many Indigenous peoples believe and experience an interconnectedness with related peoples with Native ancestry.)


 * These are simply my thoughts as I think about these issues. I am sure there has been a lot written about this topic with much greater sophistication and nuance than what I have written. And, relatedly, there are many people who know a lot more about this topic than I do, and I hope they also chime in here. Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/his/him] 05:05, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Examples
Here are some examples of problems with the article, all from the History section:


 * "A number of local historians, genealogists, and archeologists have written about the Ramapough people." → Citations to reliable sources needed.


 * "Accounts have changed related to research that has revealed more archeological, historical, linguistic, and other evidence, as well as because of social attitudes." → Needs copy editing for clarity; citation(s) to reliable source(s) needed.


 * "As with other multiracial peoples seeking recognition as Native American tribes, the Ramapough Mountain Indians have encountered differences of opinion over the significance of ethnic ancestry in contrast to cultural and community identity in being recognized as a distinct culture.: → As written, this sentence constitutes original research.


 * "The Ramapo were a Munsee-speaking band of the Lenape, an Algonquian language-speaking people who occupied a large territory throughout coastal areas of the mid-Atlantic states and along the Delaware River valley." → Does not conform with Wikipedia policy on verifiability.


 * "Bands were typically named after their geographic region. Early European colonists thought they were different peoples, but all were Lenape." → All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds material.


 * "Ramapo villages were recorded in the late seventeenth century in western Connecticut, near present-day Bethel and Ridgefield." → According to whom? As written, this sentences constitutes original research and thus violates Wikipedia policy. Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/his/him] 04:55, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Verifiable Resources
Thank you. Your suggestions are noted. I agree with you about the different ways to be recognized. Unfortunately, most people seem to be hung on Federal Recognition and DNA to prove it. This is what has been addressed in this wiki. We want to be sure the facts are presented. The questions you raise all had verifiable sources at one time but over time other editors have removed much of the sources by rewriting or removing them altogether. I will post all of these resources here again. Ramapoughnative (talk) 11:48, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Ridgefield Connecticut Ramapo lands
"Ramapo villages were recorded in the late seventeenth century in western Connecticut, near present-day Bethel and Ridgefield." → According to whom? As written, this sentences constitutes original research and thus violates Wikipedia policy. Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/his/him] 04:55, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

'''"Ridgefield is a community of over 25,000 people in west-central Fairfield County. It was founded in 1708 when 24 families from Long Island Sound settlements bought these uplands from the Ramapoo Indians." - https://ridgefieldhistoricalsociety.org/history/ https://tputaawii-xuwii-pambiilak.org/media/ramapo-village-1625/''' Ramapoughnative (talk) 18:33, 25 March 2021 (UTC)


 * ✅ Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/his/him] 10:20, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Ramapo Munsee speaking band
"The Ramapo were a Munsee-speaking band of the Lenape, an Algonquian language-speaking people who occupied a large territory throughout coastal areas of the mid-Atlantic states and along the Delaware River valley." → Does not conform with Wikipedia policy on verifiability.

'''The late Herbert C. Kraft of Seton Hall University, anthropologist and archaeologist, identified the Lenape Indians  living north of the Raritan river  as Munsee-speaking bands (Kraft, 2001). Today scholars appear to have adopted the name Munsee Indians to describe the Lenape from the lower Hudson and upper Delaware River valleys (Goddard, 2010; Grumet, 2009). -

Goddard, I. (2010). The origin and meaning of the name “Manhattan”. New York History, 4, 277-293. Grumet, R. S. (2009). The Munsee Indians: A History. Oklahoma: University of Oklahoma Press, Norman. Kraft, H. C. (2001). The Lenape-Delaware Indian Heritage 10:000 BC to AD 2000. NJ: Lenape Books.''' Ramapoughnative (talk) 19:20, 25 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Do you have access to this book?
 * → Grumet, Robert S. The Munsee Indians: A History. Oklahoma: University of Oklahoma Press, 2014.
 * If we can include a quote with the page number(s) in the reference, that would be great.
 * Thanks! Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/his/him] 10:11, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Local historians...
"A number of local historians, genealogists, and archeologists have written about the Ramapough people." → Citations to reliable sources needed.

'''William Harlem Jr. 1948 - https://tputaawii-xuwii-pambiilak.org/media/books-media/board-of-regents-of-the-smithsonian-institute/

F.G. Spect 1908 - https://tputaawii-xuwii-pambiilak.org/media/books/amrican-museum-of-natural-history-nyc/ Alanson Skinner

Ed Lenik 1997, 1999 - https://www.goodreads.com/author/list/1246694.Edward_J_Lenik'''

More to come Ramapoughnative (talk) 14:12, 27 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks! Very helpful. The links by themselves don't meet Wikipedia standards for reliable sources, but if you can find the actual books and cite the book, with page number(s), that would be great. Make sure to include all the required information in the reference. Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/his/him] 10:14, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

This will take awhile to gain. I hope you have the patience because this isnt my priority at the moment.

Ramapoughnative (talk) 04:02, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Writ
What happened to the reference to the Writ and the BIA recognition in court? You mentioned "Stated a bit differently, it might be best to not concentrate too much on federal recognition", but the lack of federal recognition is in the 1st paragraph read?

The State of New Jersey declared us as remnants of the Algonquin and Iroquois nations, so why does it say, "The Ramapough state they are descendents", instead of "The Ramapough are descendents"? "Be it resolved by the general assembly of the state of new jersey that the Ramapough Mountain People of the Ramapogh Mountains of Bergen and Passaic counties, descendants of the Iroquois and Algonquin nations, are hereby designated by the state of new jersey as the Ramapough Mountain Indians". reference is above. Ramapoughnative (talk) 04:33, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

NPOV
Um What happened to talking on the talk page BEFORE tagging it in dispute as NPOV? The NPOV rules state "Simply being of the opinion that a page is not neutral is not sufficient to justify the addition of the tag. Tags should be added as a last resort." Either we can talk about it or it goes. Ramapoughnative (talk) 21:11, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Multiple issues tag removed
I removed the multiple issues tag (diff) with the following edit description: "The article has improved since I placed the multiple problems tag. Thank you to all the Wikipedians who have contributed. The article still needs editing, but progress has been achieved." Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/him] 15:49, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
 * None of these issues have been addressed. The recent edits were minor copy-editing and removal of these statements: "Their president was listed as Duane Perry in 2016. Their treasurer was listed as Dwaine Perry in 2018," presumably obsolete. Yuchitown (talk) 01:18, 21 February 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown
 * Actually I was referring to edits made over the last 10 months since I placed the multiple issues tag on the article. But I'm not going to "tag war". I'll leave it to others to decide when and how to improve the article. Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/him] 05:29, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Updating nonprofit information
you can discuss the article here on its talk page. I found the 990s on GuideStar and can update later. Everything added needs a wp:reliable, published secondary source. Read wp:cite for more info. Yuchitown (talk) 23:23, 12 September 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown