Talk:Ransom Everglades School

POVness
It's too cheerleaderish. I encourage those with sufficient information to rewrite it in a more neutral manner. --Nlu (talk) 16:55, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I am currently attending this school, and I agree that it might be too "cheerleaderish." For this reason, I have edited the parts that originally said that "it is Miami's premier prep school" to say that it is "one of Miami's preimer prep schools." I hope this makes the article more neutral. User:LongWalkShortPier 21:05, 24 May 2006 (EST)

Ransom Everglades is Miami's premier prep school. There are other good schools, but none match the repuatation and university matriculation statistics of which Ransom can boast. A higher percentage of the graduating class attends Ivy League Universities than any other high school in Florida and top 10 in the entire United States.

Where are you getting those statiscitics, bucko? Or is it another one of those typical Ransom delusions of their own greatness? You write like a bureaucrat and you think like one too. Wikipedia better not moderate this shit, it's the goddamn discussion page.

The Miami New Times voted Ransom Everglades the Best Private School in Miami for 2006. Here's a link: http://listings.miaminewtimes.com/gyrobase/BestOf/BestOfAward?Year=oid%3A118560&Section=oid%3A13683&oid=oid%3A120454 User: Longwalkshortpier

Bottom line is that Ransom is the best school in Miami by a long shot, best school in Florida, and damn near the best in the Southeastern United States. You guys can continue with your banter, but to be honest, your jealousy and inferiority complexes are just cluttering up this discussion page with forced criticisms like "cheerleaderish" and "one of the best". I mean let's be serious, if those are the worst two things you can say about a school that ranks number one in the state of Florida for putting out Ivy League attendees, then your argument honestly holds no water, and you're better suited getting off of Wikipedia and putting in a little more study time so that you can try to join us Ransomites at the top Universities and Colleges in the nation.

P.S. Let it be noted that we are speaking about a school that has produced the likes of "Los Tres Banditos" A.K.A Miguel "Stinky Pinky" Tamayo, Anthony "Oh So" Fine, and the incomparable Fernando "El Creep" Rodriguez-Vila.

It should be noted that the greatness refers only to academic standards, as Ransom athletics are a joke. I do realize that this is redundent after correction 1, but since non-Ransomites are reading this, I figured I should put it in layman's terms. Additionaly, the "Tres Banditos" have the honor of being the first students to ever be arrested on the Ransom Everglades campus. Icontainmultitudes 21:49, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Sigh. Ah, the self-righteousness of the rich. College and other bright people are going to come as a shock to some of you. That said, here are my rambling experiences at and views of Ransom-Everglades, biased as they are. I went to Ransom in the mid-80s, when the school was going through (yet another) shift: FROM being a small, good, somewhat-expensive-but-not-ridiculously-so private school with lots of middle class students and a -few- ultra-rich students, focussed primarily on academics and not on marketing, TO being a well-marketed breeding ground and finishing school for the rich. Basically, my fam. was on the losing side of the fight, and there was one, to try and keep it high-quality rather than luxe. Facilities were decent-ish, but not particularly special. Instead, the nouveau riche of the city and especially of various fascistic South American countries decided to use it as a launch pad for their families' ambitions in the United States, and a highway to the Ivies. According to the ---faculty--- who stuck around, some of whom I'm still in touch with, students have been generally declining ever since this fight was lost. There are certainly other private schools in Miami that are -as- good academically ---in the opinion of RE's current faculty themselves--- but certainly none with the connections that current students' families and recent alums have, Belen having faded over the years. My own sense is that the school used to be a -lot- more libertine and intellectually exploratory even though we certainly had our share of Hufflepuffs. I myself believe that approach to education and wisdom and life experience of faculty is more important than facilities or endowment, and I no longer see that approach in place at Ransom-Everglades. In my opinion, it's a decent school that is remarkably well marketed, with an excellent alumni base that helps promote the *owd sod*. If the place drives you ripshit, you're probably one of the smarter students there. If you think it's perfect the way it is, you're probably going to have a brilliant and successful career followed by an afterlife in the hot place. ;) -Fr. Wolf

Also, a question: What did three students get arrested for on campus? The faculty used to get quietly stoned on occasion with the students; please tell me it's not drugs and more of Ransom's current oh-so-politically correct in loco parentis bullshit/marketing. . . I read the garbage that comes out in the alumni newsletter, and just shake my head. -Fr. Wolf

Finally. . . we always sucked at athletics. I think it's just too small a school to be particularly good at it. We were usually evenly matched with Palmer, which was about our size. -Fr. Wolf

For current students or alumns interested in a longer discussion about the place, please feel free to visit my userid site on Wikipedia for a venue; this site does seem to be edited overly much. If any students or alums are currently dealing with drug-related issues or child abuse, and have no one else to talk to, feel free to contact me for support through the *email this user* option on my userid page. - Fr. Wolf

Gah. Three vandalisms of what I wrote in 24 hours, with no discussion on this board before junking my text. . . which is what this board is for. I also note that previous critics of the school have had "I am a fag" used to replace their userid data. That would, of course, touch upon the *intellectually exploratory* comment I made earlier, along with one I made tonight in the temp comments under News discussing *academic honesty*. . . thus proving the point of pretty much anyone on this page who criticized the school. If calling people fags and just erasing whatever they write is the best Ransom's defenders can do at this point, then the school - or its lackeys at the very least - really have gone to the dogs. - Fr. Wolf

Fr. Wolf, while I acknowledge your point of view of drug use during the 80's and 90's, because I was not present to hear about the actual drug use, I would like to dispute your claim that drug use at Ransom is "unlikely to have changed recently." I am a student here, and no rumors of drug use have passed my ears. The caption that you have added is an assumption, and as an encyclopedia article, that assumption has no place in this article. Also, overall, I have some general problems with overall neutrality. For example, when you say tuition is "remarkably" expensive, rather than just expensive. While I realize that you have issues with the school, I do not think this Wikipedia article is the place to vent them.

Ugh. The school really has gone to the dogs. Let's take your rebuttal apart point by point. Ok, to begin with, a primary source is usually not considered to be a point of view. So, you can acknowledge my *experiences* during the 80s and 90s, but calling them a point of view is an attempt to denigrate the quality of the information. Secondly: the sentence as published is "Certain alumni feel that . . . (and is not likely to have changed recently)." The sentence states that certain alumni feel the situation is not likely to have changed recently. Do you disagree that certain alumni feel that way? Third: If your position is that there is *no* drug use at Ransom today, then my sense is that you simply aren't aware of it, and either aren't old enough to be involved or are not connected to students who use drugs. If the school really did have *zero* drug use among students, it is likely that the school would be shouting this fact from the rafters. Tuition, at $21,600/year, is in fact remarkably expensive for a day school, or for many colleges. Note that the University of Florida is currently about $3,000/year for in-state students. . . if you don't feel $21k is a lot of money, then I'm certainly not going to convince you of that, but I would point out that the median income for a four-person family in Florida, *pre-tax*, is 58,605, which suggests a post-tax income of ~$38k. Note that the current endowment of $15M is more than many small colleges of similar size. As for your comment on neutrality, I would argue that only stating the positive aspects of a place is not in any way, shape, or form "neutral". Finally: it's an old rule of logic that the competence (or, I would extend, viewpoint) of a speaker has no relevance to the truth of what he says. Is anyone teaching textual analysis, logic, or rhetoric at the "owd sod" any more? These are admittedly dangerous tools with which to arm students, but for $21k/year. . . - Fr. Wolf.

In response to some of your statements, Fr. Wolf I agree that the article should not be an advertisement of Ransom Everglades. However, your negative viewpoint of the school should not be addressed on Wikipedia as there is a policy of being neutral. Also, your point that drugs were a major problem at the school is not verifiable. I understand you consider yourself a primary source, but your statements are not analytical of the school as a whole. As a student at Ransom, I do believe that some students may use drugs or alcohol, but the use is not on epidemic proportions and is especially not comparable to the drug and alcohol use of other schools in the area (especially some of the public schools). Also, you should reconsider using Wikipedia as a venting grounds. I realize that you have some sort of distaste for the school, but your being rediculous by using Wikipedia for opinions. - Longwalkshortpier Nov. 11, 2006

Here are some more general statements on the article 1. I deleted the part of the article mentioning how financial aid is aimed at blacks and minorities. There is no evidence to back that statement up at all. And, because I am also a primary source as I attend Ransom, there is no evidence to suggest that trend from the students or faculty there. 2. The article needs a little bit of an overhaul on the adjectives describing the school as superior. While there is evidence to suggest it is a very good school, Wikipedia is just not the place to advertise. -Longwalkshortpier Nov 11, 2006

Leaving out negative information also skews an article. You have repeatedly vandalized this article, which is against the rules and definitely the spirit of Wikipedia. Deleting parts of articles simply because *you* disagree with them or *you* lack evidence to their veracity, if followed, would lead to most of Wikipedia being deleted. Do you have personal knowledge of the Egyptian line of kings? Might want to delete parts of those articles, too, right? As to my "distaste" for the school, I would point out that I earlier stated that *In my opinion, it's a decent school that is remarkably well marketed, with an excellent alumni base that helps promote the *owd sod**. You are thus also currently violating Wikipedia's *assume good faith* policy, without much reason. I could take your argument apart, point-by-point, the way I did last time, but it's not worth it. You will not respond to specific rebuttals, and you continue to simply vandalize this article. Given that no consensus can be reached about the facts of this school, and that Wikipedia's rules and guidelines are being pointedly ignored, it's probably best just to delete this article. - Fr. Wolf

Fr Wolf: First off, I am not "Vandalizing the article." You have stated that you could take my argument apart, so why don't we break this article down before we consider deleting. Let's deal exclusively with facts. Obviously there is a conflict of interest here, so let's break all of this down. "Admissions is competitive, and tuition is remarkably expensive. Financial aid is available, weighed towards black students and underrepresented minorities." The phrase "tuition is remarkably expensive" is true when we compare Ransom to a public school. $20,000 is not, however, remarkably expensive when compared to other schools in the area. I think that simply stating that tuition is around $20,000 without financial aid is enough. The statement that financial aid is weighed towards black students and underrepresentated minorities is absolutly rediculous. Can you explain to me where this information came from? "Certain alumni feel that coverups of drug use among and child abuse of students attending were excessive in the 80s and 90s even for a school of this socioeconomic type (and are unlikely to have changed recently). However, the lack of a normative statistical continuum for schools in this price range is acknowledged" Because I did not attend the school during the 80s or 90s (as I attend Ransom now), I believe that keeping this part in the article is allright. However, using the term "coverups," in this instance, does not give enough information about that situation. Are you meaning to say that the school tried to shut some people up or that Ransom simply did not publish information about its "drug problem" in school publications? Otherwise, this Italic textmightItalic textbe a necessary part of the articl "It is a prestigious and extremely well-marketed preparatory school in Miami, with an excellent record of sending students to Ivy League and other top tier schools, and a challenging and wide ranging academic program. The school has some of the best course offerings and facilities in South Florida for a school of its size, and some people feel it is comparable to a small college. Despite its size, a comprehensive sports program exists, including a nationally ranked sailing team" You may agree with me on this, Fr. Wolf. This part of the article seems like a direct advertisement for the school. Any suggestions on toning this down a little bit? In short, I just want to say that this article should not be deleted. Maybe the article needs to be limited in that there is no original research or opinions by those who attend or work at the school. - Longwalkshortpier

It is unfortunate to see bitter alumni attempting to defile the name of their alma mater because of a poor experience they had with the institution. Furthermore, wikipedia should not be a subjective encyclopedia but rather define Ransom Everglades as objectively as possible. This debate has become immature and rather pointless, losing sight of the issue at hand. Quite frankly, I could give a hoot as to what you think about the school Wolf, or what your children think, just as my opinion would not change your's. I could choose to rant and rave about Ransom (and I would focus soley upon my academic experience as well as the incredible experience I had with the professors that teach there) but that is not the point of this article. So, how about you stop your mongering, suck it up, and put your ill-sentiments either in a letter addressed to the school or to your psychiatrist where they would be more appropriate. (and if you are really looking for someone to tear apart your arguments piece by piece, i am more than happy to oblige, though there are other ways to sate your desire for confrontation). You may not believe that Ransom provides one of the top educations in the country, and I'm not saying that it does or does not, but I hardly believe that you are in an appropriate position to qualify the school by any terms, unless of course that is part of your job title. The point is that no one should. Readers should be informed of the facts and allowed to make their own decisions based upon objective information. SO, lets keep this article as fruitful of facts and unbiased as possible... shall we Wolf? - Dr. Manduca Sexta

Mr. Wolf, breathe; try and be a little more objective; save the self-righteousness of the rich speech for another time and place; numbers don't lie:

WSJ Study of Most Successful Matriculation: RE is one of two schools in FL on the list (the higher ranked school) http://webreprints.djreprints.com/wsj_tuition_040104.pdf

2006 Miami New Times Best Private School http://bestof.miaminewtimes.com/bestof/award.php?award=120454

2005 USA Today Highest Percentage of Calculus AB Mastery in the Country http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2005-01-25-ap-list_x.htm

2007 High School Academic Nationals, 56th in the country and the only Miami-Dade County school in the top 160; not to mention RE sent freshmen and sophomores http://www.naqt.com/hsnct/2007/results/standings.html

2007 Florida High School Academic Championship, RE places 1st in Div I (3rd collectively) http://www.geocities.com/tvitello/FLNAQT2007_standings.html

...and before you begin another rant about the selfish ambitions of the nouveau riche, why don't you reflect a bit on Ransom Everglades' Summerbridge Program, "the only independent school program in Florida to receive federal funding under the 21st Century Learning Centers program". $2.3 million federal grant? A faculty comprised by mostly Ransom Everglades' volunteers? I think the National Associaton of Independent Schools says it best, "It provides a model for public/private partnership in education, and an example of the lasting contribution independent schools can make in strengthening their local communities." (http://www.nais.org/conferences/index.cfm?itemnumber=146238&sn.ItemNumber=517&tn.ItemNumber=146239#RES)

Anyone with an objective argument? Ransom Everglades is without a doubt Miami's premier prep school. ~RE Alum '05

I do actually have quite a large point based on the posting of the two pornographers as alums of Ransom. While, as I student, I have heard rumors (at Ransom, as I am a student there), but that has been the only other outside sources I have ever seen relating to them attending Ransom. I will delete it, as an internet search reveals no backup information for Kristopher Hinson or Penn Davis attending Ransom. If someone finds information that states they attended the school, then it must be put back up despite the embarrasment to the school. Longwalkshortpier July 1 2007

I have attended Ransom. All I have to say is that this school is not cracked up to what everybody thinks it is. It is NOT one of the best schools in Miami. I think that it has an amazing reputation but it just isn't as great as its supposed to be.

Response to post directly above: Relatively recent Ransom alum here. Ransom is not a Bronx High School of Science or a Stuyvesant or other similar high school, i.e. high schools where admissions standards are highly meritocratic and "soft" factors like the wealth a prospective student's family can bring to the table or legacy status dont have much, if any, pull. But I think it's fair to say that Ransom is similar, though probably not quite on par with, elite preparatory schools in New England and New York City. These schools do have high merit-based admissions standards, which translates into, for the most part, impressive student classes. But elite private schools like those in the Northeast do admit some students who otherwise would not be admitted based solely on their merit credentials because of special relationships those students' families have with the relevant institutions. This is not just at the high school level - Harvard, Yale, Princeton et. al. have their fair share of legacy and athlete admits. Unless things have changed since I was at Ransom, I think it's pretty clear that a given Ransom class is probably at least somewhat "better" than any other class of that year in the Miami area, if we define "better" to mean the overall academic/intellectual ability of the class. Every Ransom class has its share of people who aren't the brightest bulbs, but that's true of every class at every high school in the country, except perhaps for schools like Stuy and Bronx, which are pretty much totally merit-based.

Ransom Sucks- class of 2003 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.46.175.116 (talk) 07:54, 5 September 2007 (UTC) Wow, I was bored at work and found this. I'm a Ransom alum from the early 90's and there were many intelligent students attending the school. Many of those students families are very stable financially. Me, I was a scholarship kid. I was lucky and recieved an excellent education which has served me well in my professional life. All that being said, some students did take some drugs, or drink too much, or cheat on an occasional test, etc. However, from my experience compared to what I saw in college and in life the numbers were no greater at Ransom than in other similar schools. And it's hard to question the academic achievments of many students. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.244.4.189 (talk) 22:37, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

As an alum 3-4 years out of school I have to say that Ransom is a very good academic institution. I would agree that the average student is of a higher caliber than at comparative schools in the state. It would be folly, however, to say that the best students at Ransom are better than those at surrounding public and private schools. Looking at the list of recent alumni, not many have achieved much of note compared to Palmetto High and Gables High students (for examples).


 * It's been some time and many edits since the above discussion on Point of View issues. I've removed or rewritten many sentences that were controversial, see my notes below. If no one has objections I'll remove the POV tags now. I believe the citations also really help set the tone of the article as a factual and neutral summary of the school, as opposed to a place to make partisan claims or views about the school. It's much more encyclopedic now, in my opinion. - Owlmonkey (talk) 00:30, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Protection from vandalism
Personally, I think this article should be placed under temporary restrictions against unauthorized edits. This page is a top target. Here's some recent nonsense in the article.

"Random Everglades boys can primarily be noticed by their vacant expressions and greasy faces. To compensate for their impotence, they generally display simian aggression. You can usually notice them from their oversized basketball shorts and pristine white basketball loafers. Girls can be noticed by their legs, which are always spread open. A not unpleasant smell usually billows from their vaginal crevices."

Can someone delete this paragraph from the article? Thanks. CapeVerdeWave ( talk ) 24:51, 4 October 2007


 * if there is concern about ongoing vandalism to this page we can request semi-protection so that anonymous edits will be disallowed but established wikipedia editors may still contribute to the page without obstacle. I'd recommend that before going to full protection. - Owlmonkey (talk) 00:30, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow
I graduated in 1959 -- I was Valedictorian, but there were only 11 students! A great English teacher, I can't remember much about the others except that the French and history teachers were not very good at all (the history teacher simply read to us from the textbook). Still, I went to Yale from there and probably wouldn't have if I'd stayed at Coral Gables High. Seems to have changed a wee bit since. Dougweller 18:13, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Major rewrite
I took a stab at adding badly needed citations, and in doing so corrected a number of inaccuracies. There is still some language here that is slightly POV that needs correction, in my mind. But I'm quite open to discussing and revising all of my edits. Please leave comments for me here. I will watch this page for changes. I'd like to suggest though that after these edits, and perhaps some additional minor ones to provide real sports and matriculation details, that we can remove the 'cleanup' tag and the 'POV' tag. Please comment here about that as well. For disclosure, I graduated from this school in 1988. But I believe I can edit the article from a neutral point of view. - Owlmonkey (talk) 18:10, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * ok, i think i've rewritten what remained in the article that lacked neutral, encyclopedic writing. I invite your comments or discussion about the edits here. In my mind the article now satisfies any POV concerns and cleanup needs. If there is no comments or complaints in a week I'll remove the POV and cleanup tags on the article. The sports claims I removed, if anyone could find citations for them, would be wonderful to ad back though. There may be some specific sports accomplishments with valid, neutral, third-party citations that we could put back. I just couldn't find any in my searches to substantiate the claims in the article. So I removed them. I imagine some sports news articles about ransom might provide scholarly research on Ransom's history with respect to sports. But all I could find in my searches were mentions of specific games or seasons and standings versus other schools in their division. Nothing notable particularly. - Owlmonkey (talk) 00:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * lacking any opinions here I'm removing the tags now, please feel free though at any time to comment here or propose adding them back. I'd be quite excited to have more of a conversation here about this page and how to improve it collaboratively. Best to you all. - Owlmonkey (talk) 19:17, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Debate
Ransom has a very effective debate program. The team won the Nationals Debate tournament in Public Forum in 2007, Emory Barkley Forum in Public Forum in 2008, and the Florida State tournament in Lincoln-Douglas debate in 2008. - Rogue —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.34.252.55 (talk) 02:28, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Interesting. Not sure where to add that to the article. Google finds references to the wins, including the national championship last summer, easily enough. So it would be easy to cite. But in the context of being encyclopedic, we probably shouldn't have lists of accomplishments by themselves. See the Stuyvesant High School article for an example of a high school with a lot more content; perhaps move in a direction like that in terms of prose? In that case we should perhaps mention the debate as an academic club or program and perhaps mention the national wins in the same sentence. Will you take a stab at adding it? - Owlmonkey (talk) 07:16, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I want to revive this post, Ransom has had one of the best debate programs in South Florida. I will be happy to provide all details necessary, but since 2007 the school has won numerous major tournaments in Public Forum including Emory back-to-back years, Crestian multiple times, Blue Key '09, they've had semi-finalists at major tournaments like Glenbrooks and Tournament of Champions, etc. Since 2007 Ransom really has become a national powerhouse in debate — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.60.201.31 (talk) 04:52, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Sixth Grader Jack Davis
I just reverted an inclusion of Jack Davis as a notable alumni, for one because he's not yet an alumni (still a student) and two because there is no wikipedia article about him specifically as notable. But I'm curious what people think about attempting to establish notability for him and creating an article about him. Here are some links to stories about the young man:    I doubt he meets WP:BIO requirements though. Maybe the law if passed could have an article and then he could be mentioned there. Thoughts? - Owlmonkey (talk) 22:53, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

there is no need for this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.2.81.118 (talk) 19:56, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Devi Sridhar
I didn't add the reference initially, but I tend to agree that she is notable simply because of her age as a Rhodes Scholar winner. Not only that, but since leaving ransom she completed an undergraduate degree, then a masters and doctorate in philosophy at Oxford University. She now works as a post doctorate fellow at Oxford and has over twenty publications. This is all before the age of about 22. The following was in the article before it was reverted twice by user who omits any reasoning for removal so far. Any other opinions on this? - Owlmonkey (talk) 19:10, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Devi Sridhar - Youngest American Rhodes Scholar (at age 18) since creation of award.Sridhar bio The Hindu (January 2004) On the road to success The Miami Hurricane Youngest Rhodes scholar on way to success Oxendine Publishing UM student does it all
 * I'm afraid that isn't enough. We've got our own criteria for academics, read them here: WP:ACADEMIC. Why, even I don't qualify for an entry on this article. :-) dougweller (talk) 20:09, 13 November 2008 (UTC) - class of '59
 * Fair enough, I'm probably just star struck. :) And she would likely need to be included on Notable Rhodes Scholars too and meet the editors consensus there. - Owlmonkey (talk) 19:29, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * She's certainly impressive, you could try that article. I've fixed the links, just use open and close square brackets, not ref. It was a boys only school in my time, sigh. dougweller (talk) 19:46, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Coconut Grove vs Miami
The administrator asks what happened In August 2008. At that time Comayagua99 made the exact same change to the article. This discussion then occurred on Comayagua99's and GroveGuy's talk pages:

Coconut Grove is not a city, it's a neighborhood within the City of Miami despite what Ransom Everglade's website says. Look it up! :) --Comayagua99 (talk) 19:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Dear Comayagua99 - I can see by your edits you are interested in the geography of Dade County. Let me tell you a little history. Have a look at this map: [] This shows our county at about the time the school was founded. Of the settlements designated then only three remain today: Hypoluxo, Miami, and Coconut Grove. The school was founded in 1893 as Pine Knot Camp. In 1895, one year before the city of Miami was incorporated, Coconut Grove had the only hotel between Palm Beach and Key West and the first swimming pool and tennis courts in the area; at this time there were about six people in the settlement called Miami. In 1919 the town of Coconut Grove was incorporated. In 1925, fearful that Coral Gables would outgrow it, Miami underhandedly engulfed Coconut Grove, Silver Bluff, and several other neighborhoods. Trivia: streets in the Grove are named the opposite to those in Miami; thus "Grand Avenue" and "Virginia Street". So, although Coconut Grove is legally a part of Miami, we Grovites fiercely defend our separate identity; continue to improve other Wiki areas but please leave Ransom Everglades alone. --GroveGuy (talk) 01:27, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I understand that. Coconut Grove was it's own city before, but not anymore. It's a common misconception to think Coconut Grove is it's own city, when it is just a neighborhood within the City of Miami. "Coconut Grove, Florida" does not exist. "Coconut Grove, Miami, Florida" however, does. --Comayagua99 (talk) 14:14, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Comayagua99 - On my talk page you said that ''"Coconut Grove, Florida" does not exist. "Coconut Grove, Miami, Florida" however, does''. You are WRONG. Go to the post office website: http://zip4.usps.com/zip4/welcome.jsp and look up Ransom-Everglades' address: "3575 Main Highway" city:"Coconut Grove" state:"FL". The US government will confirm that "Coconut Grove" exists. And they will confirm that "Coconut Grove, Miami" does NOT exist. --GroveGuy (talk) 23:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Again, it's a common misconception to believe Coconut Grove is it's own city. It's a neighborhood within the City of Miami. See: http://www.ci.miami.fl.us/NETS/pages/AboutNET/DistrictMapLarge.asp. Hope that helps clarify things. :) --Comayagua99 (talk) 01:30, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Comayagua99 - This dispute with you is fun. Your citing the City of Miami's NET map bolsters my viewpoint. This is just a map of administrative areas. This means that the Ransom-Everglades page should say "North/East Coconut Grove, Miami, Florida." Try sending some mail to an address in Flagami or Downtown ! Also, you might ponder why there are two NET offices in Coconut Grove. --GroveGuy (talk) 04:19, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

After this back and forth, Comayagua99 let the article remain as Coconut Grove. Also, here is a copy of the title page of a typical yearbook: http://www.grovebook.com/images/Ransom1959.jpg I don't think the distinguished editors had to think twice about the words found here. Further, here is an image of the oldest known promotional brochure: http://www.grovebook.com/images/AFS1904.jpg  Again, no mention of Miami. I think the article should continue as it was before Comayagua99's edit. GroveGuy (talk) 17:58, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I used to live in the Grove and I went to Ransom. The link should go directly to our article - if you want to try to change the namne of the article, you can try. But our readers should not have to go to a link to find out that Coconut Grove is in the City of Miami. Miami calls it 'Miami's Village' (for publicity purposes anyway) . Dougweller (talk) 21:07, 5 April 2009 (UTC)