Talk:Rasgulla/Archive 1

Comment by User:Leftmiddleright
--Leftmiddleright (talk) 13:49, 19 August 2014 (UTC)It is NOT acceptable at all that Rasgulla or Roshogolla was created at Odisha. The primary ingredient of Rossogolla is Chhana or cottage cheese. The Indians first learnt the art of making --chhana from the French/Portuguese who stayed in a colony at Chandannagore in Hoogli District, West Bengal during the British Raj. In fact, this art of curdling milk into Chhana was considered a taboo by the Hindus and no Chhana products were allowed inside temples or offerred for any holy ritual. Consequently, it is not possible that Rossogolla was created in Odisha centuries back when the art of making Chhana was first learnt not before the later half of 18th Century or the first half of 19th Century. Moreover, it cannot be offerred at Puri temple as Chhana was considered taboo as milk which was considered very holy had to be curdled to make Chhana. It is only in 1868 that the Rossogolla was first created in Bagbazar, North Kolkata in West Bengal.

FACT-1 The Hindu female deity Lakshmi is served rasagollas on the last day of the annual Rath Jatra festival at Puri. This is a 600+ year old tradition called NILADRI BIJAY.

FACT-2 The word cheese is derived from Latin Caseus that comes from Sanskrit Kaasi indicating that chhena was made in India in ancient times.

FACT-3 Even in the rest of Bengal, outside Kolkata, it is the larger, browner Oriya version of rasagolla that is prepared. The K. C. Das/Ganguram chewy “sponge” rasagolla is confined only to Kolkata.

FACT-4 The only Portuguese cheese in Kolkata is the Bandel cheese which is very salty and smoked. It is available in New Market, and Anglo-Indians usually buy it. It is totally different from sweet chhena dishes.

FACT-5 Even the Bengali dish Sondesh predates the arrival of the Portuguese.

FACT-6 All true Portuguese origin dishes – Bibenca, Vindaloo (Vin de Alho in portuguese), Kaju (Caju in Portuguese.), Batata (Batata in Portuguese), have Portuguese sounding names. But chhena does not sound like Queijo in Portuguese.

FACT-7 The Portuguese arrived in Baleshwar, Orissa at the same time as Bengal.

FACT-8 Even KT Achaya merely hypothesized Portuguese origin (and was wrong). It took a chauvinist Bengali writer Chitrita Banerjee to stake a formal Bengali claim to the rasagolla. Her book is so narrowly focussed on Bengali readership that she freely uses Bengali terms everywhere, making it difficult for non-Bengalis to even read.

FACT-9 Even if the Portuguese were to have introduced chhena to India (which is wrong), the timeline is enough for the Puri temple cooks to have picked it up and incorporated it into the temple cuisine.

FACT-10 Rasagolla has been cooked in Salepur for one and a half centuries.

FACT-11 Milk curdling from whey was done way back in 12th century India (See P. Arundhati's book," The Royal Life in Manasollasa,", Sundeep Prakashan, 1994.)

FACT-12 Rasagolla is made from whey-curdled milk. Even if KT Achaya was correct, the Portuguese would simply have shown Bengalis how to curdle milk from acid. It has no bearing on the history of rasagolla.

FACT-13 The K C Das site also claims that Nobin Das wanted to patent rasgulla. Except that there was no patent law in India those days! The first ever legislation to protect intellectual property law had just been introduced in India! It was Act VI of 1856 on Protection of Inventions. It granted "exclusive privileges" to the inventor. The legislation was designed only to safeguard British colonial interests. The first real patent law enacted in India was the Indian Patents and Designs Act 1911. Even this law was to safeguard British colonial interests and not designed to protect Indian inventors. This led to the Indian Patents Act of 1970: the first patent law designed to protect the likes of Indian inventors such as Nobin Das, which was over a century since he masqueraded as the creator of the rasgulla.

Puri temple tradition
Puri temple tradition is uniform and unique. its never changed form 1000 years. in temple no foreign origin food are introduced lile, Tomato, Potato, Chili, Pineapple etc. Rasogolla is a traditional food in Puri temple. its being practice from 1000 years. may be Bengali learned Chenna from French/Portuguese as their History may started during foreign colony line Mogal, British, French/Portuguese etc. and its obvious everything they learned from them only. but don’t forget the land who have old history and ruled by their own like kalinga has preserved their tradition. Rasogolla is part of Puri Jagannath Temple tradition and it is clear that there is no change in temple tradition for 1000s of years. So Rosagolla is there in Kalinga/Utkal / Odisha from 1000 years. So 1st know someone tradition and claim something. If your culture starts from Mogal (sirajudullah ), British and French/Portuguese etc its your problem. History cannot change for incapability of your ancestors. They can not capable to preserver for you. Always you people start with British, French/Portuguese etc, why not your own? And mighty ancestor of Kalinga fought to keep their identity and this is the result as their Language is only classical language in Indo Aryan language family, their classical dance is the oldest classical dance in India, their painting Patachitra is classical painting, their ancient architect like konark and many temple in Bhubaneswar, Puri are classical and world famous. Their music Odissi Music is claimed one of classical music in India. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.165.63.132 (talk) 10:39, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Untitled
There is no doubt that Rasagola, as it is pronounced in Orissa, is a desert with an Orissan origin. If some people claim a Bengali origin for Rasagola, they are doing injustice to history.

I strongly suggest that the article should correctly refect history.

Has anyone done an article on Rasmalai, perhaps under some alternate spelling?--DCo 09:57, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Ras Malai article is here 13:28, 28 March 2007

nonsense about portuguese origin
Who the bleep told this einstein that chhana is portuguese origin? chitrita banerji writes typical bengali stuff for bengali people only. Portuguese introduced a SALTED SMOKED cheese in India called BANDAL. The word "bandal" is derived from farsi "bandar" or sea port. Bandal cheese is not at all like chhana. It is salty and smoked and tastes like European pungent cheese. Chhana is totally different. I hope this clears up the total confusion. Mikrazcrap (talk) 17:52, 23 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Portuguese cheese is totally different frfom any cheese that i have seen in india. the sweet stuff is totally novel to me. Who said Indian cheese is borrowed from portuguese cheese? It is a complete lie, as anyone from portugal who has visited india can verify.

62.48.205.225 (talk) 19:57, 18 June 2009 (UTC) Can Oriya folks please stop with this ridiculous claim that Roshogolla is an Oriya invention? Because it most certainly is not. (unsigned)


 * As per WP:V, verifiable sources have been given for it being a dish originating in Orissa. There is no need to call this assertion "ridiculous" without any proper references to the contrary. Thanks Antorjal 15:56, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Added comment Further, vandalizing pages by unilaterally blanking out sourced information one is uncomfortable with is not the appropriate form of dialogue on wikipedia. For your concerns, please use this discussion page. Thanks. Antorjal 16:06, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The same warning about vandalism should also be given to 63.192.143.194 too. Link SDas 13:57, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Roshogolla is not a different dish, but the same one as rasgulla. The article was well written and authentic with links. (No I am not Oriya but visited that place and KNOW that the article is correct!!). I VOTE to keep it as is. Thank you.


 * Exactly. This is a a balanced and authentic narrative of the history of rasgulla as it happened. It gives credit to Orissa for innovation and Bengal for popularisation. STRONG suggestion to keep it AS IS. 24.190.119.242 15:20, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I Request all editors to sign articles. Antorjal 15:56, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Rasgulla is not cheese
This message is for the benefit for the individual who decided to blank verifiable sourced messages to push the POV that the Portuguese introduced cheese into India. First, get your facts straight: Rasgulla is not cheese. It is made from the curdled product chena (or chana) that Indians have been making for centuries even before Vasco Da Gama set foot on Calicut. As such, I request you to refrain from placing unsubstantiated (and in this case irrelevant information) on this page. Thanks Antorjal 12:53, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I am out of context but chhana cannot be called curdled, and its really a cheese Jeroje 09:28, 18 August 2007 (UTC)jeroje
 * I think it is cheese, but when one refers to cheese in western cuisine, it usually means ripened cheese. Chhena is unripened chese. SDas 13:47, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Rasgulla is cheese. "Cheese" as a term covers a wide range of foods, including farmers' cheese and hoop cheese, both of which are very similar to chhana/chhena. --SameerKhan 22:38, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 19:34, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Caution
None of the references in this article are trustworthy enough to pin down the final word on the origin of rasgulla. so I will ask all the editors to be considerate of different opinions. If the edit war goes on in this pace I will be more than obliged to remove any mention of the origin of rasgulla from this article. Jeroje (talk) 08:37, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

youtube video of IBN travel show piece is not a proof! how one could count it as a reliable reference? And please friends be careful this wikipedia article can bring out lot of blogs and websites which later creeps into this massive jungle of references. so please dont add any more references unless its a book by notable historians. I am still waiting to find time to get rid of other bad references. thanks Jeroje (talk) 08:25, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Youtube was not added as a reference just as general information. There are other youtube videos also. The sify bawarchi article is as good as it can get. I do not think that you will find any other references better than this for an Indian sweet dish article other than one particular oriya recipe book. Even if the bad references are not individually reliable if they all say the same thing then it must indicate something. Please add the new references back as they are good ones and not blogs. Regards, 70.179.137.38 (talk) 03:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

WP:INDIA Banner/Orissa Addition
Note: WP India Project Banner with Orissa workgroup parameters was added to this article talk page because the article falls under Category:Orissa or its subcategories. Should you feel this addition is inappropriate, please undo my changes and update/remove the relavent categories to the article -- Amartyabag   TALK2ME  02:52, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Please do not change further
Too many editing, many cases of vandalism. Can't you lock this article? It is a nice one as it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.248.48.2 (talk) 15:31, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Nice article reflecting true history. No dispute. 173.74.50.210 (talk) 06:31, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

i agree to the above. thx. 75.89.64.126 (talk) 05:30, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Puri Temple Origin of Rasgulla
http://www.kalingatimes.com/orissa_news/news3/20080716-Lord-Jagannath-returns-to-main-temple.htm

Lord Jagannath returns to main temple
By Rajkumar Mohanty Puri(Odisha), July 16; The Daita servitors escorted Lord Jagannath, Lord Balabhadra and Devi Subhadra to the sanctum sanctorum of the Sri Jagannath temple in Pahandi procession late on Wednesday night after offering of rasagulla bhog to the deities on their respective chariots. '''Devotees also offered hundreds of quintals of rasagullas to the deities. This is the only occasion when rasagulla is offered to the deities every year.''' The deities, who were on a nine day sojourn to the Gundicha temple, had returned to the main temple gate area and spent a couple of nights on the chariots before they were escorted to the main temple. The priests performed daily chores of the deities on the chariots beginning with Mangala Arati, Abakash, Mailam, and dressed the deities for public appearance. On this day the deities were offered only fruits as Bhog. The devotees were allowed to embrace the lords on the chariots. In the evening, the servitors fix the traditional ladders to the three chariots and then Daita servitors begin the Pahandi starting with Balabhadra the elder followed by sister Subhadra. Jai Jagannath, Haribol and religious hymns rented the air while devotees were charmed witnessing the ceremonial Pahandi procession of the deities amid display of fireworks. Mahalaxmi, the consort of Lord Jagannath, was angry as she was left behind in the Yatra. She keeps a close vigil on Pahandi procession of Lord Jagannath. She orders closure of the temple main gate for the Lord after allowing the Lord Balabhadra and Devi Subhadra's Pahandi procession. The servitors of Mahalaxmi and Jagannath enact a play on the occasion exchanging the dialogues from both sides. The Lord of the universe then tenders an apology and persuades Mahalaxmi with offering of tasty Rasagullas. Finally she allows the Lord to get in. After the deities adorned their seats on the Ratnasimhasana the role of the Daitas came to end. The regular priests then take over and perform normal daily rituals with observance of Mahasnan (the grand bath) of the deities. Lakhs of devotees would taste Mahaprasad known as Nilachal Abhada on Thursday. The ritual is popularly called Niladri Bije.

This should remove any lingering doubt about the temple origin. 70.179.131.96 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:55, 16 January 2010 (UTC).

Puri temple origin
Who else but the Hare Krishna could know more about this issue? Here is what they write:


 * Meanwhile, the occasion of Niladri Bije also saw devotees offering Rasogolla (a famous Oriya sweet) to the Deities aboard Their chariots. The practice is age-old and traditional.


 * Lord Jagannath offered Rasogolla to Goddess Mahalaxmi to pacify her before entering the sanctum sanctorum on Niladri Bije, for the Goddess was aggrieved as the sibling Deities went on nine-day sojourn to Gundicha Temple without her accompanying Them. So she resisted when the Lord was entering the shrine on Niladri Bije. Then Lord Jagannath tried to please Goddess Mahalaxmi by offering her Rasogolla.

Regional and national newspapers cover the age-old tradition of Niladri Bije where rasgullas are offered to Lakshmi every year.

--Dlorp (talk) 17:59, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Rasgulla
There are some notes added here, I don't think Oriya and other Indic script is needed there. Yet, have a look there if possible! What s meant by "Unnecessary changes"? -- Tito Dutta  ✉  22:01, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey, I don't know who wrote that Face-surprise.svg. I agree, may be we can have a separate section if needed. But definitely not in the lead, maybe its because of the pronunciation difference. And I don't think it is unnecessary, the changes you want to make ;). -- ɑηsuмaη  ʈ ᶏ ɭ Ϟ  04:57, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Moved back
Someone moved Rasgulla to Rasogolla (Bengali sweet) and made some other changes, I found those vandalism, and moved back. Please have a look at recent history -- Tito Dutta  ✉  14:48, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey thank you! As I said before If the article need a section on different lan and varieties of rasgullas we can have one. What do you think ? -- ɑηsuмaη  ʈ ᶏ ɭ Ϟ  18:57, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, this page needs to mention the varieties with appropriate weight. Currently, Rasgulla seems to be heavily Odiya food, whereas conventionally it is known more as a Bengali one. The conventional view should get appropriate coverage, then the other views.--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:11, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I have removed the scripts. You can start a new section/sub section about "Rasogolla (Bengali sweet)" if you think its needed. -- ɑηsuмaη  ʈ ᶏ ɭ Ϟ  19:15, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * @Dwaipayan I dont mind at all. As far as sources cited, it is an Odia cuisine :-) But please go ahead, expand the article. -- ɑηsuмaη  ʈ ᶏ ɭ Ϟ  19:21, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Cant use this article as a base of any debate!
There is no doubt that the origin of this sweet is very much debatable. So why dont we mention the word debatable at the origin section. at least just let people know what are all points that you are not sure of. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.15.16.103 (talk) 10:21, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I totally agree with this person above. Dear mr. editor I am not sure how you have got so many awards; but you need to think about all those people too who has nothing to do with this regionalism. Unless you let people know that you are not sure about something, they will keep fighting for your wrong article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.254.4.6 (talk) 11:46, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Rasgulla or Roshogolla versus Khiramohana.
Khiramohana is not Roshogolla.

The form of Roshogolla (rasogolla) that we know today is different in the form of alleged Khiramohana of Odisha. Almost in all respects - taste, softness, preparation, texture, colour, marketing, popularity and technology - these two named sweets are different. Roshogolla would not have gained so wide popularity had the Khiramohana retained in its alleged form. The essence of Roshogolla lies in its present form, apparently known to us, discovered by Nabin Chandtra Sen.

Besides, comparing popularity between Nabin Chandtra Sen and the Temple at Puri, it is impossible to claim, and establish Roshogolla, over Khiramohana, as a product invented in Bengal, for so long. Logically, had the sweet Khiramohana resembled identical taste, texture, softness, colour and preparation as of Roshogolla; Roshogolla would not have survived in its present status. Alternatively, had Khiramohana retained its invented form, the sweet would not have established itself in the same way Roshogolla did for itself. In fact, Khiramohana could not popularize it as Roshogolla did for itself.

The Bengalis and the Oriyas, well connected since the temple was built at Puri, so it is unlikely preparation of Roshogolla could be copied from alleged Khiramohana of Odisha in the presence of Oriyas in Kolkata, or in the presence of the Bengalis themselves. Roshogolla would not have dominated the world and known as an invention of Bengal, had Khiramohana in existence similar to Roshogolla.

The claim, Roshogolla invented by Odisha impugning, does not stand a chance to survive validly. Indeed, Roshogolla invented by Nabin Chandtra Sen, Original Khiramohana is not Roshogolla.

N.B: In no other dictionaries, either in Oriya (Odisha) or, in Hindi Language Dictionaries, except Bengali, one will find the word, Rosogolla (Rasagolla) or, Rasgulla respectively, in whatever forms, either singly or jointly, establishing the fact the word rasa+gōllā রসগোল্লা (Rosogolla) originated only in Bengali Language.

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 17:13, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

I think your knowledge is limited to only Bengali language. As far as Odia dictionary is concerned - "Rasa" means syrup/sugary syrup. There are various other sweets found in Odisha with the same name - Rasabali(Chappan Bhog of Sri Jagannath) invented in the Baladev Jew temple of Kenderapara. Rasabali is another sweet meat made of Chenna invented in 15th century. Another one is Rasabara which is also a odia delicacy. The word "Gola" or "Golla" means something round shaped and it is found in most of the languages also in Sanskrit, Pali, Pro-Odia and Odia. Odia is an ancient language and it has a spoken history of atleast 2000 years(Hathigumpha Inscription of Bhubaneswar). So the claimed that Rasagolla and the words doesn't exist in Odia language is not correct. And to a normal Bengali - Odia is unknown so leave alone it's words and usage. The claim that the Bengalis and Odias were connected since 11th century is farsighted and absurd. There is no evidence to prove this claim. Odisha, the then Kalinga was a sovereign Kingdom and until Shashanka's 9 years of rule till upper part of Odisha. Puri is more to South of Odisha. After that until Suleiman Hirrani's attack there was no evidence of a large amount of Bengalis coming to Odisha. Rasagulla or Khiramohan existed before Chaitanya arrived in Puri. There is enough evidence to that and a careful research would be possible to establish the fact. And the Bengali's claim that Nobin Chandra Das(not Nobin Chandra Sen) to be the inventor can also be an Odia as suggested by Pritha Sen, a bengali researcher. So there is no merit in your arguments Arjya2002 (talk) 03:39, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Rosogolla
Hello Yamaguchi先生,

What makes you reverse the spelling Rosogolla and রসগোল্লা (in Bengali) in the article Rasgulla?

You should have known before deleting the words, that the spelling "Rosogolla" (রসগোল্লা) was spelt by me correctly. Please be informed that it is a Bengali word রসগোল্লা =(রস+গোল্লা) and the meaning of রস [rasa] = a syrup; juice; exudation and গোল্লা = [gōllā] n a globular sweetmeat (রসগোল্লা, কাঁচাগোল্লা), please refer online Bengali dictionary, for the word (rasa+gōllā) = (রস+গোল্লা) or frequently spelt as "Rosogolla", here http://www.ovidhan.org/b2b/রস and here http://www.ovidhan.org/b2b/গোল্লা. Therefore, you should not have deleted a correct spelling.

In fact, the spelling of the article Rasgulla and the other spelling mentioned therein are not from original language but more what other language speaking Indians spelt. Therefore those words require correction too. However, I have kept them intact only included original and correct spelling.

Please note, when written in English Language, the sweet (article) correctly spelt as "Rosogolla" and "রসগোল্লা" in Bengali Language, but you have arbitrarily deleted both of them.

Please note that I am a very old Wikipedian, so I know very well how to edit the pages.

Therefore, on the above mentioned grounds, Please reverse those words, you have erroneously deleted.

Thanks Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 21:21, 3 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Hello Snthakur, thank you for the opportunity to discuss your proposed changes to the Rasgulla article. Your changes were redundant with the "alternate names" field in the Infobox template, and listing a dozen different spelling variations in the lede is simply not desirable.  How can we determine which alternate spellings should and should not be presented in the lede?  I am requesting community input on this matter and will respect the resulting consensus. Regards, [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Yamaguchi%E5%85%88%E7%94%9F&action=edit&amp;section=new Yamaguchi先生] 21:31, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Hello, [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Yamaguchi%E5%85%88%E7%94%9F&action=edit&amp;section=new Yamaguchi先生],

Let me clear your confusion and allow me to answer your question, "How can we determine which alternate spellings should and should not be presented... "

In this context, I would like to remind you that, in my initial talk, I have categorically mentioned the correct spelling of the article and I have referred you source for the word Rosogolla,  (রসগোল্লা) (those you have last deleted) - the words were verified in a dictionary, and a dictionary is considered to be the most reliable source,

Accordingly I have referred the Dictionary URL http://www.ovidhan.org/b2b/গোল্লা for your perusal about the original spelling রসগোল্লা written in English as Rosogolla, the other relevant URL being http://www.ovidhan.org/b2b/রস, in addition to that a search in Google with the word "Rosogolla" yields a desirable result.

N.B: In no other dictionaries, either in Oriya (Odisha) or, in Hindi Language Dictionaries, except Bengali, one will find the word, Rosogolla (Rasagolla) or, Rasgulla respectively, in whatever forms, either singly or jointly, establishing the fact the word rasa+gōllā রসগোল্লা (Rosogolla) originated only in Bengali Language.

Thanks,


 * rasa+gōllā = রস+গোল্লা [which is conveniently spelt as Rosogolla (রসগোল্লা) in Bengali Language]

রস [rasa] n savour, flavour, taste; a liquid so lution of anything hard (চিনির রস); a syrup; juice; ........

গোল্লা [gōllā] n a globular sweetmeat (রসগোল্লা, কাঁচাগোল্লা);.......

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 22:37, 3 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I'd suggest avoiding lead clutter altogether and keep the alternative spellings to the Infobox. This is English Wikipedia, and the most common name used in English sources is Rasgulla (based on Google Scholar/Books/News). utcursch | talk 22:23, 5 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I am of the same mind as well. Thank you for sharing the link to Manual of Style/Lead section, which specifically codifies methods of presenting alternate spellings without cluttering the lead.  I have removed all but the common name from the lede and recommend any alternate names continue to be listed in the alternate_names field of Infobox prepared food provided they have a valid source.  Regards, [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Yamaguchi%E5%85%88%E7%94%9F&action=edit&amp;section=new Yamaguchi先生] 16:53, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Khiramohana
A Citation needed tag used in the article page for Khiramohana asking for providing verifiable source to establish Khiramohana, also, why Khiramohana and Rasgulla are not different but the same - comparing its nomenclature, taste, softness, preparation, texture, colour, marketing, popularity and technology with the other.

If you can provide reliable sources for the above claim, please be bold and replace the "Citation needed" template with enough information to locate the sources.

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 09:05, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Bengali Rasgulla, a variant to which
A Citation needed tag used in the article page for Bengali Rasgulla and its a variant to which? - Asking for providing verifiable source to establish the name Bengali Rasgulla, as it appears to be different than Rasgulla. Also asking for providing verifiable source to establish that Bengali Rasgulla is a variant to which dessert Khiramohana or Rasgulla?

If you can provide reliable sources for the above claim, please be bold and replace the "Citation needed" template with enough information to locate the sources.

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 09:15, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Removal of citation needed tags.
Hello, User:Utcursch

None of the term - Khiramohana or, Bengali Rasgulla - have verifiable sources to establish them in the article, therefore removal of citation needed tags were inappropriate. Please provide verifiable sources before deleting the citation needed tags from the article. You are free to discuss the matter here, on article's talk page concerning above item no 16 and 17.

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 21:22, 12 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but you're not making any sense here.
 * "Bengali Rasgulla" bit: You are demanding a citation, when one is already present. You added citation needed tag just before the reference. What are you trying to do here? From : "Chances are that the spongy, white sweet we know today as the Bengali rasgulla evolved here."
 * "Khirmohana" bit: The article doesn't state "Rasgulla originated in Odisha, where it was called Khirmohana". So, there is no sense in demanding a citation for that. The article states "According to historians of Odisha, the rasgulla originated in Puri, as Khira Mohana", and there is already a citation for that.
 * utcursch | talk 21:29, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Hello,

Strange! What makes you decide me not making any sense? See above items 16 & 17. Please provide verifiable source/s to establish (1) Khiramohana, (2) why Khiramohana and Rasgulla are not different? Please provide verifiable source/s to establish (1) Bengali Rasgulla, (2) And a variant to which dessert Khiramohana or Rasgulla?

These are significant to cite.

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 21:41, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

(2) Besides the above, you have alleged 'one is already present', but the source you cited, is more of a question than an answer, considered to be an unreliable source!

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 21:53, 12 August 2015 (UTC)


 * , I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
 * Are you demanding a citation for the statement that Khiramohana and Rasgulla are not same? Well, the article already states that. ("Khirmohana is a precursor to Rasgulla, according to Odisha historians". That is not equivalent to saying, "Khirmohana and Rasgulla are the same thing"). And there is already a citation for the statement that Odisha historians claim Khirmohana to be a precursor of Rasgulla.
 * Are you demanding a citation for the statement that Khiramohana and Rasgulla are same? That doesn't make sense, because the article doesn't claim that they both are same. The article states that Odisha historians claim that Khirmohana was a precursor to Rasgulla. There is already a citation for that. You cannot demand citation for something that article doesn't even state.
 * Are you demanding a citation for the statement that the whitish, spongy variant is called Bengali Rasgulla? There is already a citation for that -- it's present just after your citation needed tag. What do you mean that it is "more of a question than an answer"? It's not a question ("What do we call this rasgulla today?"). It's a statement ("the spongy, white sweet we know today as the Bengali rasgulla"). The article is published in an established newspaper, and qualifies as a reliable source. And, it is written by a Bengali author (Bishwabijoy Mitra), so you can't cry bias on that factor either.
 * The last part ("a variant to which dessert Khiramohana or Rasgulla?") is a question that you are asking. It's not something that the article states, so it makes no sense to add a citation needed tag to the article for that. Citation needed tag is to be used when the article states something, but doesn't include a source.
 * utcursch | talk 22:05, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Hello,

You seem to understand very little. The source you cited, is more of a question than an answer, considered to be an unreliable source! Provide verifiable & concrete source. And this news making your source unestablishable, the URL is http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Maharashtra-takes-up-rosogolla-battle-with-Odisha/articleshow/48417745.cms The point is the very word rosogolla was coined in Bengal and not Odisha and hence the latter cannot have any ownership on the name.

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 22:39, 12 August 2015 (UTC)


 * First of all, the source cited for the bit that we are discussing is not "Maharashtra takes up rosogolla battle..." (that is actually a pro-Bengal piece cited for a different sentence).
 * The source cited (as I've pointed out twice in this discussion) is Who invented the rasgulla?. It is by a Bengali author Bishwabijoy Mitra, and is perfectly reliable by Wikipedia standards. If you're not happy with the existing citation, there are many others (a Google search for "Bengali Rasgulla" throws up 95,000 results, many of them books and news articles.
 * Nobody is having any "ownership on the name" -- the article doesn't state anything like that. Consider these examples:
 * "Agre ka petha" doesn't imply that petha was invented somewhere else and that Agra sweetmakers copied it.
 * "Mathura ka peda" doesn't imply that peda was invented somewhere else, and the Mathura one is a copycat product
 * In fact, these sentences imply that these sweets are associated with these particular places. It's same for Bengali rasgulla. The fact that white, spongy rasgulla is widely called "Bengali rasgulla" doesn't imply that Rasgulla was invented in Odisha. That's your own interpretation. You're making up a claim, and demanding a citation for it. utcursch | talk 23:39, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Hello,

Let us stop impugned discussions, rather act more like a perfect Wikipedian editors. Impugned discussions will lead us nowhere. "Prejudiced" is the word that I really dislike to happen, so rest assured on my neutrality. But that does not mean a biased act shall jeopardise Wikipedia's quality.

The essence of this debate-like-talk is to establish Khiramohana with reliable sources like the sources; source-able in case of Rasgulla, establishing Khiramohana with adequate reliable sources might resolve the issue to a greater extent. And I mean it in the name of Wikipedia.

The point is, the Khiramohana and the Bengali Rasgulla both, should have definitive sources to establish them respectively. I do not see Khiramohana and Bengali Rasgulla have reliable sources to establish them as features in Wikipedia, unlike Rasgulla have many definitive sources.

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 00:56, 13 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Please stop being vague, and specify what you need citations for.
 * The citation for Khiramohana being claimed as a precursor of rasgulla (and not same as rasgulla) is present in first line of the history section. Sources need not be repeated in the lead section, if the lead section just summarizes the referenced content present elsewhere in the article.
 * Here is a direct quote from the source:
 * "Food historians broadly agree that the precursor to the rasgulla was probably the kheer mohan, which was invented in Odisha and was offered to the deities at the Jagannath Temple in Puri. This may have later evolved independently into the Pahala rasgulla."
 * You demanded a citation for the dish being called "Bengali rasgulla" -- it is already present in the article. You have not been able to provide any reason why the citation is not a reliable source.
 * Please stop adding citation needed tag for content that is already cited.
 * utcursch | talk 01:30, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Concerning above item no 16 and 17, the Khiramohana and the Bengali Rasgulla both, should have definitive sources to establish them respectively. I do not see Khiramohana and Bengali Rasgulla have reliable sources to establish them as features in Wikipedia, unlike Rasgulla have many definitive sources. Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 01:35, 13 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm just going to call a mediator here. You are removing citations, and adding citation needed where citations are already present. And when asked for a reason, you're presenting vague excuses. utcursch | talk 01:45, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Seen your impugned statement. Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 01:47, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
 * No comment on the khirmohana stuff but the 'Bengali rasgulla' source is not sufficient to say "known as Bengali rasgulla'. The source is not particularly reliable for that claim but, more importantly, it is likely that the author is merely using Bengali to clarify which rasgulla he is referring to. --regentspark (comment) 03:11, 13 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. If you think that's vague, how about The Nation : "This wonderful dessert was later introduced in Bengal by Oriya cooks and became famous as ‘Bengali RasGulla’."
 * utcursch | talk 03:36, 13 August 2015 (UTC)


 * The articles below by Snthakur, for example, don't do that. Reading the sources, it seems to me that the Oriya claim to invention has less support than the Calcutta claim to invention. And, predominantly, the sources don't divide the thing into a Rasgolla and a Bengali Rasgolla so we shouldn't be doing that in the lead. The lead, the way it is currently written, overstates the Oriya claim. I suggest moving the Khirmohana part below the Das part and indicating that the origins are murky. --regentspark (comment) 12:51, 13 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Sounds good to me. utcursch | talk 15:54, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Lead looks good now. I think the origin claims need to be reworked - particularly in the light of the oxford reference - but this looks good. Thanks . Also, the Portuguese claims are inside the Oriya claim (as a rebuttal). Wonder if there are any independent references to that? I know, I should look, but RL keeps rearing its ugly head. :( --regentspark (comment) 17:27, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Are you referring to The Oxford Companion to Sugar and Sweets? It also mentions the Odisha claim, and also talks about the claims of the dish having been created by someone other than Nobin Chandra. The author (Ishita Dey) is a Bengali, so it's not surprising that the entry is focused on Bengal. Other works, such as Sweet Invention by Michael Krondl (the editor of The Oxford Companion) and Sweet Treats around the World discuss the Odisha claim in a little more detail. Krondl's work also hints that the Europeans (the French or the English) having introduced curdled cheese to India. There are many other books which mention the bit about the Portuguese having introduced curdled cheese to India, but not in context of Rasgulla (e.g. The Hour of the Goddess, or the "India" entry in The Oxford Companion). There are probably other books which discuss this in context of rasgulla (e.g. Fodor's Essential India), but I haven't been able to spend a lot of time searching for them. It's a pain, because the dish's name is transliterated variously as rasgulla, rasagola, rosogolla, rossogolla, roshogolla etc. utcursch | talk 18:18, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Section break
In addition, to ensure that the Wikipedia contents Khiramohana and Bengali Rasgulla both are verifiable, I have raised the questions by inserting the Citation needed tags explaining my reasons in the tag codes. Considering ongoing allegations, both of them should have definitive sources, similar to the sources used for the article Rosogolla Written in English Language the sweet spelt as Rosogolla, (spelt রসগোল্লা written in Bengali Language). Therefore, both of the Citation needed tag items should have definitive sources.
 * rasa+gōllā = রস+গোল্লা; as per Bengali Language dictionary only, unfortunately no other Indian Language Dictionaries mentions gōllā.
 * রস [rasa] = a liquid solution of anything hard (চিনির রস); a syrup; juice; http://www.ovidhan.org/b2b/রস
 * গোল্লা [gōllā] = a globular sweetmeat (রসগোল্লা, কাঁচাগোল্লা); http://www.ovidhan.org/b2b/গোল্লা

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 07:22, 13 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but I have no idea what you're trying to insinuate here. Rosogolla, Rossogolla etc. are spelling variations, and are already mentioned in the infobox under "Alternative names". Are you saying that these are different dishes (like Khiramohana)? Or are you saying that these are different variants of Rasgulla (like the Pahala Rasgulla and the Bengali Rasgulla)? utcursch | talk 12:16, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

The question is not spelling variation, if you do not understand my above statements, that will prove either you are biased in the matter or you are not with proper merit.

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 18:01, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Regarding alleged Content forks
Hello Spaceman  Spiff 

(1) You should not have deleted the article Rosogolla immediately, and before giving an opportunity to the editor of the article concerned to be heard. This is not a reasonable act; an administrator should do without consensus. Indeed your act is unreasonable.

(2) Reasonably, The question of content forks applies when the main article itself is perfect in nature, however, in the instant case the main article Rasgulla is not perfect in nomenclature, for the reasons stated below.

(3) Rasgulla is a colloquial name, mostly called by the other language speaking Indians. The formal name of the desert is Rosogolla as per the dictionary and other reliable books - those I have referred in the deleted article Rosogolla in question. Unfortunately, the main article should have named Rosogolla but it is representing an imperfect, colloquial name, for the obvious reasons.

(4) However, to avoid impugned disputes with some biased editors or administrators of the article Rasgulla, the Article Rosogolla was created to represent its formal name. The article should have stayed in Wikipedia but you have arbitrarily deleted it, that too without a prior discussion or providing a notice in support of your probable deletion.

(5) Therefore, considering the above stated fact and circumstances, please address the above stated issues (1) to (4) so that the article Rasgulla could be enriched in quality and perfection.

A reasonable and consensual reply from you shall enable me to decide further course of action regarding this.


 * In addition to that:-


 * (i) There is no question of creating duplicate forks or I have no intention to create one knowingly.


 * (ii) The essence of my above statements is that since the other article Rasgulla is a colloquial name, against the formal named Rosogolla (deleted/protected), hence the content of the formal name Rosogolla be merged with the colloquial named Rasgulla, thereafter, Rasgulla be renamed with its formal name Rosogolla. But since the article Rosogolla protected, I cannot retrieve its content and the above proposal requires your cooperation.


 * (iii) There is another option, renaming the Article Rasgulla by its formal name Rosogolla, then update the page content with the content of Rosogolla so protected. However, though I can rename the page in question but history of the page needs to be merged with the proposed page to be renamed but doing this is not within my reach. So I need your cooperation in the desired manner.


 * (iv) Following, I am providing verifiable references in support of my statement, why the name Rosogolla is formal, establishing the Rasgulla as colloquial or not a formal name. A fact is a fact and none can deny it, reasonably formal name shall survive.


 * rasa+gōllā = রস+গোল্লা (Rosogolla) - as per Bengali Language dictionaries only, (the Bengalies tend to pronounce the dental sa as palatal sha and the sound a as o). However, no other languages Indian dictionaries mention the word gōllā meaning a globular sweetmeat (রসগোল্লা, কাঁচাগোল্লা).
 * রস [rasa] = a liquid solution of anything hard (চিনির রস); a syrup; juice; URL to see http://www.ovidhan.org/b2b/রস
 * গোল্লা [gōllā] = a globular sweetmeat (রসগোল্লা, কাঁচাগোল্লা); URL to see http://www.ovidhan.org/b2b/গোল্লা
 * Written in English Language the sweet spelt as Rosogolla,  (spelt রসগোল্লা written in Bengali Language).

Thanks Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 17:51, 13 August 2015 (UTC)


 * First of all, if you want to change an article's name, you should request a move instead of creating a new article on the same topic.
 * Secondly, there is no such thing as a "formal" name of the dish. The name "Rasgulla" is actually present in the Oxford dictionary, which has no entry for "rosogolla". The dictionary reference cited by you in your fork (Collins) is a user submission.
 * Different works use different spellings of the dish. Even some of the ones cited by you in your forked article used spellings other than "rosogolla". In Bengali sources and works based on them, the English approximations of the Bengali pronunciation ("rosogolla", "rossogolla" or "roshogolla") are common. In Odiya sources, "Rasagola" or "Rasagolla" are found. Other sources may use one of these spellings or "Rasgulla".
 * Going by Google Scholar, Books and News results, "Rasgulla" is by far, the most common of the spellings.
 * Moving the article to "rosogolla" will result in an unnecessary Bengali-vs-Odiya troll fest, considering the fact that people of Odisha had celebrated "Rasagola Dibasa" very recently. utcursch | talk 18:54, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Snthakur, when spellings differ there is no need for a separate article. Rosogolla redriects to this anyway and you can request a move to the other name if you like (I doubt if that will work). --regentspark (comment) 20:47, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Page Move Request
To whom it may concern:

Sir/s

As per the following recommendation, available at the page URL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Talk:Rosogolla_discussion I am requesting a page move of the article Rasgulla to the article page Rosogolla, the reasons for this already discussed in the above said page URL.

", the solution to the issue is as follows;
 * 1) Request a page move on the talk page of the concerned article. We cannot have two articles on the same subject.
 * 2) It may succeed or it may not. In any case, for your content to be restored, you can ask the deleting admin . (P.S. The content won't be restored to the namespace rather, to your sandbox or pages like this Talk:Rasgulla/forked content).
 * 3) After which you can manually add the contents to the article. If someone opposes, discuss with them in the article's talk page.
 * Hope that helps. Regards-- ☮ JAaron95  Talk  12:37, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

"

Thanks

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 13:11, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

I fully support this. [S. Basu, Kolkata, India] 171.79.91.125 (talk) 15:01, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 14 August 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. Jenks24 (talk) 10:14, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Rasgulla → Rosogolla – Editor has requested that this page be moved to Rosogolla stating, 'Rosogolla is the formal, original, familiar and most common name of this dessert.' Regards-- ☮  JAaron95  Talk (DRN Volunteer) 13:25, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.


 * Support - for the reasons given in the discussion URL Dispute_resolution_noticeboard.
 * For your convenience, quoting some of the reasons below - those already mentioned in the above page URL.


 * rasa+gōllā = রস+গোল্লা #(Rosogolla) - as per Bengali Language dictionaries only, #(the Bengalies tend to pronounce the dental sa as palatal sha and the sound a as o) . However, no other languages Indian dictionaries mention the word gōllā meaning a globular sweetmeat (রসগোল্লা, কাঁচাগোল্লা).
 * রস [rasa] = a liquid solution of anything hard (চিনির রস); a syrup; juice; URL to see http://www.ovidhan.org/b2b/রস
 * গোল্লা [gōllā] = a globular sweetmeat (রসগোল্লা, কাঁচাগোল্লা); URL to see http://www.ovidhan.org/b2b/গোল্লা


 * A reading of the scholarly Book named 'The Oxford Companion to Sugar and Sweets by Michael Krondl, Eric Rath, Laura Mason, Geraldine Quinzio, Ursula Heinzelmann' (click here to read), it clearly spells the sweet as  rosogolla. The scholarly book states, "rosogolla is primarily associated with West Bengal where it is just one, if perhaps the best known, of numberless channa-based sweets. Channa from cow's milk is considered best for rosogolla.” The book also highlights history of rosogolla associated with Kolkata and West Bengal. There is a full one and half page writing on rosogolla that sufficiently convinces a wise men’s mind that rosogolla indeed associated with Kolkata and West Bengal, since it's invention and till date.  Nomenclature, spelling, invention of rosogolla strongly associated with Bengal and Bengali Language speaking people in both places, West Bengal and  Bangladesh. Therefore, none should disagree that  rosogolla’s validity necessarily rest on the dictionaries of Bengal but not necessarily in any other dictionaries. Any relevant word first enters into a local dictionary, might be updated in the dictionaries of other locations, later.


 * Rosogolla is a Formal name of the desert, as per initial dictionaries published in India in Bengali Language and other scholarly books relevant. Among many, the dictionary at www.ovidhan.org rasa (রস) means a liquid solution of anything hard (চিনির রস); a syrup; and, gōllā (গোল্লা) means a globular sweetmeat (রসগোল্লা, কাঁচাগোল্লা), Therefore, making formal name of the desert Rosogolla. The Oxford Companion to Sugar and Sweets of Oxford University Press, describes Rosogolla at page 359. ISBN 978-0-19-931339-6. Historical Dictionary of the Bengalis of Scarecrow Press, Inc, under series editor Jon Woronoff also describes Rosogolla at page No. 188. ISBN 978-0-8108-8024-5. Therefore, formal name of Rosogolla is undisputed. On the other hand, no other Indian dictionaries, except the above, mentions gōllā, it supports that the same desert named as Rasgulla is COLLOQUIAL in nature. Rasgulla is not perfectly spelt as per NOMENCLATURE also, but called by other language speaking Indians. It's Correct name is Rosogolla. Rosogolla is not only original name, it also is the desert’s formal name therefore, most common and familiar name should be Rosogolla and not Rasgulla.


 * Almost all, among 254 million Bengali (click here to read), speaking people, both in West Bengal and Bangladesh use the desert Rosogolla and they spell it exactly as Rosogolla, Therefore, considering Rosogolla's comparable actual usage, and the desert’s familiarity with total number of people calling the desert as Rosogolla is much more above the number of people who prefer to call it as Rasgulla.

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 13:44, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 10:11, 15 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Opppose - "Rosogolla" is not a formal name, as claimed by the requester. It's just one of the several approximations of the Bengali pronunciation. Even among Bengalis, there are other transliterations (e.g. Nobin Chandra's descendants use "rossogolla", Chittaranjan Mistanna Bhandar uses "rasogolla" etc.) The Odiyas (who claim that their state is the dessert's birthplace) have other spellings for the name, including "rasagolla", "rassogolla", and "rasagola". Going by Google Scholar, Books and News results, "Rasgulla" is by far, the most common of the spellings. The Oxford dictionary also lists the entry for the dish at rasgulla. It's best to retain the current title of the article. utcursch | talk 14:00, 14 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I oppose the name change as it is draws sources from local bengali writers and no scholarly sources. A cook book writer like Banerjee can't be a supreme authority. Moreover if historians say that there is documentary evidence of Puri being the origin and the 13th century Madala Panji has a mention of rasagulla in it's chronicles then it should be taken as the basis of deciding the sweet's origin. The editor says Khiramohan is not rasagolla without any basis as both are made the same way and look the same and taste similar. The superior variety being Khiramohan. Rasagolla is a colloquial term in Odia - "Rasa" means syrup and "golla" means round shaped sweet meat. Now the evidence of origin of such words can be traced to the Odia language and it being an ancient language(classical language) has such words. I will give an example - the sweetdish Kheer was originated in Odisha 2000 years ago in Puri(same place where Rasagulla/Rasagolla) was originated. In Odia Kheer is called "Kheeri" whereas in Bengali it is called Payas. So does that mean Payas is a different dish with Bengali origin? Another example can be the word "Pitha" which is very local to Odisha. Pithas are a variety of dishes made from rice and urad with variations of preparation - sometimes tawa fry or baked. Bengalis also have pithe which is similar kind of preparations of rice dumplings with jaggery, milk etc. But the origin of the word dates baked to Odisha. Another example is Malpua which is originated in Puri again and it is famous all over north India with same recipe and preparation. Does that take away the origin of Malpua. Here Odisha is going for a GI application for the sweet dish "Pahala Rasagola" which is local to Pahala which has a distinct taste and has an age old method of preparation. Pahala rasagola makers have been in the same location for more than 200 years. So the GI application is only for Pahala Rasagola and it will be called "Pahala Rasagola" only for trade benefits to Pahala confectioners. It will not apply for all confectioners Pan-Indian. Just like Hyderabad Haleem or Darjeeling Tea. Haleem and Tea are prepared/grown, nurtured and relished locally and procured in most of the north eastern and southern states of India. It doesn't restrict Assamese or Tamils to grown Tea or Lucknawis to cook Haleem. it is like removing all the history of Kalinga or Utkala as there isnt any Kalinga in present day. I hope we can remove tagging unnecessary cook book writer references supporting any view. The researchers from both side agree that Puri is the birth place of Rasagola as it also appears in the Madala Panji which is the 12th century chronicle of Jagannath temple Puri. And seeing the popularity of Rasagola in Odisha, the Bengali stand can be easily refuted. Pahala alone sells more than 9 million pieces of rasagola everyday.Arjya2002 (talk) 00:11, 15 August 2015 (UTC) — username (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * If you can add this information with sources, great, but that doesn't change what spelling is most common in English. &mdash;innotata 09:33, 22 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose per English Google book search "Rasgulla is" appears to be the English spelling. "Rosogolla is" gets only half the results of "rasgulla is". In ictu oculi (talk) 06:39, 15 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose per in ictu oculi. Since English language sources predominantly use Rasgulla, that's where our article should be (WP:UCN). --regentspark (comment) 16:12, 17 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose Utcursch and In octu oculi have shown that the present spelling is much more commonly used in English sources; I don't ever recall seeing the word spelled any differently personally. &mdash;innotata 09:33, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Discussion
The question is, a selective decision between the names Rasgulla and Rosogolla, as per WP:NAMINGCRITERIA.

Prevailing:

Wikipedia will not interfere into an administrative action, however erroneous, if not challenged on the grounds of contravention of appellant’s right, as described in the wikipedia policy.

Conclusion:

Considering Talk:Rasgulla and Talk:Rasgulla, erroneous Acts of the administrative opposition, in renaming and moving the article Rasgulla to Rosogolla, not only violates the standards of creative skills, human relations and precise set of methods, such action also contravenes wikipedia’s naming conventions policy. If the instant appeal would fail to reach a reasonable consensus due to prejudiced acts of the administrators concerned, instant appeal must escalate.

Decision:

In my signed statement dated 21:44, 17 August 2015 (UTC) under title Talk:Rasgulla, I have categorically proved, how naming of mispronounced Rasgulla has been improperly decided, in violation of standards of creative skills, human relations and precise set of naming methods. Further, my signed statement dated 13:44, 14 August 2015 (UTC) under title Talk:Rasgulla, flawlessly suggest that, I have established the Rosogolla as a commonly recognizable name by showing reference from the Scholarly English language sources that predominantly use the name Rosogolla. Page 580 here of The Oxford Companion to Sugar and Sweets by By Michael Krondl, Eric Rath, Laura Mason, Geraldine Quinzio, Ursula Heinzelman from Oxford University Press, ISBN 978-0-19-931339-6, strongly establishes Rosogolla. This is the latest, updated and corrected Scholarly and valid English language source from Oxford University Press, used for commonly recognizable name as per WP:NAMINGCRITERIA, and the only source that invalidates other previous sources, irrespective for the names of both articles.

Action: Pending as on date.

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 06:23, 18 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Woah... "grounds of contravention of appellant’s right", "violates the standards of creative skills, human relations"... that's a whole new level of wiki-lawyering.
 * I don't have anything to say about your arguments -- I (and others) have already replied to those. As I've mentioned earlier, you are just repeating the same points over and over again.
 * All I've to say is: please don't insert your comments randomly anywhere on the talk page -- the new comments go at the bottom of the page. Someone reading this discussion has no idea what you or others are responding to, because you've been inserting your comments all over the page. Also, please don't use misleading headings such as "Conclusion", "Decision" etc. And finally, your comments would be easier to read if they didn't feature random bold text and featured a little brevity. utcursch | talk 15:42, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

@utcursch

Hello Utcursch, appellant’s right mean, you probably aware of the fact that by signing with Wikipedia, a new user gets relevant right, since it becomes his duty to abide by Wikipedia's conditions & policy, duty and right are an integral part, it is a natural phenomenon applicable in any statute and fundamental in nature. So by now you probably understood what the phrase meant. Do you?

Standards of creative skills, human relations etc. meant, wile editing a new article, every editor should follow this guide line.

I will have no comment if you don't have any too, but since you have stated, "just repeating the same points" meant you have failed to understand where actually my point lays regarding the issue. You have to reassess it further.

Though understandable, but your statement, "inserting my comments randomly", does not stand valid, since, not randomly but I have a definite pattern of placing comments on the top - where my first comment lays. However, I do agree with you to write the comments after the last.

In regard to "Conclusion", "Decision" etc. I feel you do not have authority over my personal liberty that you are trying to encroach upon.

About bold text, brevity etc. they are mutually acceptable.

Finally it is not you and me or a few more editors who are following instant discussion and other happenings, but I have made arrangement so that an wider people can see them considering the matter is related to Wikipedia policy and my wound due to prejudiced or preconceived opinions and acts - those are not based on reason or actual experience. Let the world know the fact.

Thanks Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 19:43, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Today's my view on requested page move to Rosogolla


 * The Rasgulla is a mispronounced name, not a commonly recognizable name (CRN) as per Wikipedia Policy.
 * Scholarly English language sources in the main Rasgulla article failed to establish Rasgulla as CRN.
 * Sources even in the main article rather indicate alternative names of targeted Rosogolla; as Rossogolla, rasagolla - are Bengali pronunciations.
 * Consideration been made on Mispronunciations, scholarly sources from native English speaking countries, Deciding inability, the sweet's several Indian English names.
 * India is a country with several languages, Hindi; her national language. A name widely mispronounced by another language-speaking person in India. The sweet is source-able to be a Bengali sweet popular throughout India, accordingly Rosogolla mispronounced as Rasgulla by Hindi speaking people and others, so called by Bengalis, non-Bengali people in India.
 * There are valid source-able grounds in favour of the target name Rosogolla. That almost all 254 million Bengalis in India and Bangladesh likely to use the sweet as Rosogolla; the target name. In West Bengal only, some 8 percent of nation's population consumes half of the country's sixteen billion rupees worth of sweets in 2003, adding to it Bangladesh and Bengalis from other Indian states/ countries would be even more.
 * I found, most opposing voters are not reasonable to oppose the move or, to use their impartial minds.
 * At least one of them seems to be a fake voter.


 * Therefore, your Comment on my views appreciated.

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 23:26, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

User:RegentsPark's opposition arbitrary, his reasons have no basis for the following reasons.

The Rasgulla is a mispronounced name, not a commonly recognizable name as per Wikipedia Policy. In addition, the voter ignored to consider those scholarly English language sources, referred in the main Rasgulla article page, predominantly failed to establish Rasgulla as a commonly recognizable name, rather there are clear indications that rasagolla and Rossogolla predominantly used as the names of the sweet. Both, these names alternatives to Rosogolla - the target article name.

(1) One reference source in the main Rasgulla article, "The Oxford Companion to Food by Alan Davidso" – scholarly native English foreign source - mentions, "rasgulla (Hindi) or rasagolla (Bengali) or rasbari (Nepali), a Bengali sweet popular throughout India. This English source does not use Rasgulla, it rather predominantly use rasagolla - alternative name of the target Rosogolla article. In addition to that, the source clearly says about the sweet, "a Bengali sweet popular throughout India."

(2) Another, native English foreign source in the main article, “The Sweetshops of Kolkata, Gastronomica Journal 10 by Michael Krondl, Page 58," mentions, "Rossogolla is made from similar dough but is boiled rather than fried. When soaked in milk-based syrup, it is called rossomalai." This source too does not use Rasgulla rather predominantly uses Rossogolla, - alternative name of the target Rosogolla article.

(3) Another native English foreign source in the main article, ‘Sweet Invention: A History of Dessert by Michael Krondl,’ mentions in the pages 55-59, “"Rossogolla, a syrup-poached dumpling of fresh curd, is arguably India's favorite desert." This source too does not use Rasgulla rather predominantly uses Rossogolla, - alternative name of the target Rosogolla article.

(4) Most references in the Rasgulla article do not indicate name of the sweet as Rasgulla, rather other name relevant to Rosogolla. I have ignored them for the following reasons.

I have taken scholarly English sources mainly published in native English speaking foreign countries, but I ignored Indian and Bangladeshi news articles, most of which are unscholarly, some even biased, even mispronounced, and ignored unscholarly books published in India or Bangladesh for four important reasons. (i). Mispronounced. (ii). Relevance - native English speaking countries. (iii). Deciding inability and, (iv). The sweet has too many Indian English names. These reasons described below.

Mispronounced: India is a country with several languages, so name in a language widely mispronounced in another language. A name in Bengali, or any other Indian languages, frequently mispronounced by other language-speaking persons, it is a common mistake in India. Hindi is India’s national language.

Native English speaking countries, relevance: Taking scholarly sources from native English speaking foreign countries would be appropriate as long as usage of English term is concerned.

Deciding inability: It is simply not easy to decide between Rosogolla and Rasgulla, which name mostly used in India. It is certain Bangladesh use Rosogolla or its alternative names but never use Rasgulla, Bangladesh prefers to avoid a Hindi pronunciation.

The sweet has too many Indian English names: English sources in India not only use Rosogolla, also uses its other alternatives names including Rasgulla, almost 254 million Bengalis in India and Bangladesh use Rosogolla. Where in West Bengal only, some 8 percent of nation's population consumes half of the country's sixteen billion rupees worth of sweets in 2003, adding Bangladesh and other Bengali speaking Indian states would be even more.

User:RegentsPark has no valid reason in support of his opposition, nor the main Rasgulla is a commonly recognizable names as per its own sources, unfortunately, he seems biased too.

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 21:44, 17 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Umm... so, according to one of your refs, the spelling is "Rasagolla" and according to the second one, it's "Rosogolla". But you want the article to be moved to a third spelling "Rosogolla"? Self-goal. As for your other argument, this is not Bengali Wikipedia. The Bengali pronunciation of Tagore might be . "Tagore" might be incorrect and unpopular among Bengali speakers, but it's the most common in English sources, and that's what we use. You're just cherry picking sources and repeating the same points over and over again, while ignoring any evidence that doesn't support your argument. utcursch | talk 22:15, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

@User:Utcursch

Let us be specific to the objective, the question is a decision between the names Rasgulla and Rosogolla. Now User:RegentsPark has mentioned to use commonly recognizable names. Accordingly, I have replied keeping in mind said sources in the main rasgulla article. Somehow you have questioned my reply intended for User:RegentsPark, the act is fine and my pleasure too.

In regard to Rasagolla and Rosogolla endeavour has been made to establishd Rosogolla citing Scholarly source that states, "the Bengalies tend to pronounce the dental sa as palatal sha and the sound a as o," Feel free to see my reasons here => Talk:Rasgulla

However, I am well aware of and an editor for Thakur. However, Thakur-Tagore principle not likely applicable in the instant case, since we have to use commonly recognizable name as per Wikipedia, and we will have to decide accordingly. Renaming, through local mispronunciation, and renaming through international anglicization, not really the same.

Rabindranath was a human being and a Nobel laureate, lingering and intrinsic value concerned, but the concerned sweet a lifeless material ends as soon as one eats it. So, Thakur-Tagore theory not likely applicable in the instant case. Do they?

Thanks

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 00:55, 18 August 2015 (UTC)


 * My observation as follows:


 * Rosogolla of West Bengal versus Rasgulla alleged to be of Odisha.


 * It is necessary to mention here that in Odisha the Jagannath Temple at Puri does not allow any foreign visitors to enter in to the Temple premises,  not even a non Hindu Indian. It raises a question about communality in any wise men's mind.


 * A reading of the scholarly Book named 'The Oxford Companion to Sugar and Sweets' (click here to read), clearly spells the sweet as  rosogolla. The scholarly book states, "rosogolla is primarily associated with West Bengal where it is just one, if perhaps the best known, of numberless channa-based sweets. Channa from cow's milk is considered best for rosogolla.” The book also highlights history of rosogolla associated with Kolkata and West Bengal.


 * There is a full one and half page writing on rosogolla that sufficiently convinces a wise men’s mind that rosogolla indeed associated with Kolkata and West Bengal, since it's invention and till date. Nomenclature, spelling, invention of rosogolla strongly associated with Bengal and Bengali Language speaking people in both places, West Bengal and  Bangladesh.


 * Therefore, none should disagree that rosogolla’s validity necessarily rest on the dictionaries of Bengal but not necessarily in any other dictionaries. Any relevant word first enters into a local dictionary, might be updated in the dictionaries of other locations, later.


 * rasa+gōllā = রস+গোল্লা (Rosogolla) - as per Bengali Language dictionaries only, (the Bengalies tend to pronounce the dental sa as palatal sha and the sound a as o). However, no other languages Indian dictionaries mention the word gōllā meaning a globular sweetmeat (রসগোল্লা, কাঁচাগোল্লা).
 * রস [rasa] = a liquid solution of anything hard (চিনির রস); a syrup; juice; URL to see http://www.ovidhan.org/b2b/রস
 * গোল্লা [gōllā] = a globular sweetmeat (রসগোল্লা, কাঁচাগোল্লা); URL to see http://www.ovidhan.org/b2b/গোল্লা


 * A search in Google with the string "gōllā" throws more light on the validity of Rosogolla.
 * A search in Google Book with the string "Rosogolla] yield even more satisfactory result in favour and on the validity of Rosogolla.


 * Written in English Language the sweet spelt as Rosogolla,  (spelt রসগোল্লা written in Bengali Language).


 * The Syrupy Sweets in a nutshell. - A fact.
 * See here Talk:Rasgulla
 * NB Kheer in Kheer Mohan, suggests a condensed milk pudding, is not chhena.
 * Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 15:50, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 16:45, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

The word Channa is a Bengali pronunciation for "Chenna" which is more popular in most of the India. In Odisha is also called Chenna and is made from milking curdling by Whey. Unlike the Portuguese origin which is made of animal enzyme. The sweet dish Chenna Poda is also originated in Odisha which has more than 350 years of history in Nayagarh. Nimapada, Kendrapada have simila Chenna based sweets called Chenna Jhili, Rasabali, Chenna Muduki. So Chenna was not unknown to Odisha and these sweets are not recent inventions. Gola means round shaped in most of the languages in India. Gola is anything round shaped. It doesnt necessarily mean only sweet. If such kind of definition is given in a bengali dictionary it is only for local consumption and has nothing to do with any other community. And why do you say that it doesn't appear in any other dictionary. Have you never come across Gola word in Hindi? Or have you done a thorough study of Odia dictionary. If there is reference to Rasagola in Madala Panji of Jagannath Temple then it should precede any recent cook book or news paper article references. And why is news paper articles given as references here again and again. I would request moderation of such references. Also the original article was well balanced and removing authentic references and diluting the content is not a good idea. If there is reference of "Rasa" and "Gola" in Odia language why the Bengali version can be accepted as original knowing Odia being more ancient and uninfluenced with 2000 years of written and spoken history and Bengali being a more recent language influenced by Arabic and Hindi. I request moderation of unwanted references and unnecessary verbose. If you want to keep the Bengali view please restrict it to that. Don't claim that you are an expert of all languages in the subcontinent.Arjya2002 (talk) 01:12, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Why Odisha’s Rasgulla and Khiramohana are same?

(1) It seems the editors and administrators, involving this article Rasgulla, are not interested to address the item no 3 in Talk:Rasgulla so as to resolve the name of the article Rasgulla as original and formal and establish Rasgulla Wikipedia worthy. (note1).

(2) (i) Admittedly, the Khira Mohana is the predecessor of Rasgulla, so the question is, why not a request might be made for the article Rasgulla to rename in its original & historical name Khira Mohana or, Pahala rasgulla? (note2). (Refer next item.)

(ii) The Item 1.1 of the article Rasgulla mentions, “According to historians of Odisha, the Rasgulla originated in Puri, as Khira Mohana, which later evolved into the Pahala rasgulla." . The concerned news also mentions, "In Odisha, they claim equally vehemently that the Rasgulla was invented there (Odisha) and has been offered to Lord Jagannath for centuries. So how could it possibly belong to Bengal (West Bengal)?" Therefore, I need to clear this question that, if  Khira Mohana evolved into the Pahala rasgulla how is it possible  Khira Mohana  became Rasgulla, before I raise a request for renaming Rasgulla in its original & historical name, preferably  Khira Mohana or, Pahala rasgulla. (note3).

(iv) According to above observation, the article Rasgulla tries to reflect that Khira Mohana became Rasgulla through another naming Pahala rasgulla. So it will reasonably be interpreted that Khira Mohana, Pahala rasgulla and Rasgulla all are different names of the same sweet. (nore4).

(v) As per the statement of utcursch | talk, Rasgulla editor and administrator of the article Rasgulla, it made clear in the page Talk:Rasgulla that the Odiyas (who claim that their state is the dessert's birthplace) have other spellings for the name, including "rasagolla", "rassogolla", and "rasagola." (note5)

Therefore, it will reasonably be interpreted that not only Khira Mohana, Pahala rasgulla and Rasgulla are different names of the same sweet (refer above item iv), but "rasagolla", "rassogolla",  "rasagola,  Khira Mohana, Pahala rasgulla and Rasgulla  - all are different names of the same sweet  (nore6).

(3) I am confused, and there is a question in my mind about neutrality of the administrator and editors of the article Rasgulla that the article Rosogolla was deleted, (refer Talk:Rosogolla), by the administrator SpacemanSpiff and supported by the administrator editor utcursch | talk of the article Rasgulla on the grounds “two article for the same desert cannot be there in Wikipedia here, However, said deleting administrator intentionally ignored to keep the article  Khira Mohana even when the article [[Rusgulla} establishes itself for the same sweet. Is not it a biased act of the persons concerned?

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 14:47, 15 August 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.