Talk:Renée Richards

Regrets about SRS?
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html

The above ref from the transsexual article indicates Richards regretted her transition and she is indicated as someone who regretted this in the article. Should this be mentioned here as the transsexual article links to this one but on coming here I found no further information on this? Leonurus 16:46, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The above link is in the Transsexualism references. The problem is, that at various times Dr. Richards both does and doesn't regret her SRS. Certainly she has not "Detransitioned" which is the evidential standard for significant regret in transsexualism. She does have a new book - I think that would be worth reading first. Cheers!  Lauren  ♫/∆ 09:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Tone of article and talk page
I am apalled at the lack of professionalism in here. First, let me address the article. I feel it is incorrect to refer to a transsexual by any other pronouns than the preferred ones, even when discussing pre-transition life. This occurs under "Becoming legally female" in the article and under "WTF?" in the talk page. Secondly, I find the comments above under "WTF?" to be biased (not NPOV), if not also bigoted. --24.167.191.111 03:38, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * In the article, sure, and I'm going to go and change that after I'm done here. The comments under WTF? are definitely biased and bigotted, but a talk page is a record of discussion, and everyone has the right to freedom of speech, even, alas, bigotted people. 62.253.240.4 (talk) 00:52, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Tournament records
The tables about her tournament records need to be fixed. They include lots of tournaments she apparently never played in. The doubles table has footnotes referring to singles. The abbreviations in the tables are not explained. Not good work. Lou Sander (talk) 23:09, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Pre-transitioning pronouns
What is the rationale for referring to Richards using female pronouns for the time when Richards was living as a man? I find it hard to follow when reading, as it seems natural to use masculine pronouns for when Richards was a man. 128.223.131.109 (talk) 22:12, 20 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Logically, the pronoun would be "he" before transition and "she" after. Is there a style guide for this? 76.241.129.142 (talk) 23:36, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Please read Gender identity. Please don't confuse gender with sex. A trans woman is a woman; only with the wrong body before it was changed with surgery; she has always had her female brain. When we talk about trans women, we use terms that match her gender (the brain) when it comes to any of these terms: woman, she, her, girl, daughter, sister, aunt, niece, wife, stepmother, adopted mother, lesbian partner. Sex (the body) determines these terms: vagina, vulva, uterus, womb, ovary. Georgia guy (talk) 23:55, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

"she has always had her female brain" is a POV. You are not a brain surgeon.

I concur: the first part is false, and at best, most confusing. "she was ranked sixth out of the top 20 males" is wrong. He wanted to be a he back then, otherwise he would have tried to compete as a woman, see the table below.

So all pre 1970s "she" have to be changed to "he". Zezen (talk) 10:46, 5 November 2015 (UTC)


 * It is completely unnecessary (and perhaps gratuitous) to use pronouns in some of these historical situations. I have gone ahead converted some of the pronouns used to refer to her while she still identified as a male, to "Richards".  Marteau (talk) 12:19, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

"[W]ho is Jewish"
The fact that this person is Jewish is mentioned in a number of other places. This wording is very strange. Myrkkyhammas (talk) 16:04, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Page semi-protected
I've semi-protected the page for an indefinite period of time. Any admin is free to reduce the length however but I would like to be notified before that happens. Alexandria  (Ni!)  13:52, 12 October 2011 (UTC) Josephine Shaffer — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.255.11.240 (talk) 03:33, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 April 2014
Please fix the misgendering "There, Raskind married a woman, Barbara, whom he divorced after five years of marriage and together they had one son." to "There, Raskind married a woman, Barbara, whom she divorced after five years of marriage and together they had one son. --71.59.58.63 (talk) 02:18, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

71.59.58.63 (talk) 02:18, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * That whole thing is confusing because of the gender change. Best might be to say "...Barbara. They divorced after five..." Lou Sander (talk) 02:46, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Anupmehra  - Let's talk!  03:26, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Minor Edits
Since the article is semi-protected, the following edits need doing by an appropriate named account.

"The United States Tennis Association (USTA), the Women's Tennis Association (WTA), and the United States Open Committee (USOC) required all women competitors to verify their with a Barr body test of their chromosomes." --> Verify their what? Presumably this should be their sex, or their gender.

"Richards asserted that participating in the tournament would constitute "an acceptance of her right to be a women."" --> Can't access the source, but it seems likely this should be "right to be a woman."74.69.249.131 (talk) 04:13, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Incoherent, or at least unexplained
"She had a very lethal and recognizable left hand serve that followed her everywhere and later led to the discovery of Renée".

What does that mean?

Jewish boy and all-American home
The concept of the "all-American home" is outdated, but when it meant something, did that meaning include being raised as a "nice Jewish boy"? Or perhaps, as the first go at her family life says "as she put it", maybe this phrase can be used again with "all-American home". --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 20:56, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Regret
He publicly regretted his sex reassignment operation. This needs to be included. "“—I told People what I was feeling, which I still feel: Better to be an intact man functioning with 100 percent capacity for everything than to be a transsexual woman who is an imperfect woman.”" http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/01/garden/01renee.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.207.135.183 (talk) 01:36, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Change "She" to "Richards" before 1970s
It has to be changed to "he" before transitioning. Otherwise it is very confusing. See also the policy about phrases to avoid:

Zezen (talk) 20:18, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * You mean, Richards was a man at that time (not only as opposed to a woman in general, but also as opposed to a trans woman)?? Georgia guy (talk) 20:35, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

You got me lost here. I meant this part of policy: Also please avoid phrases that seem logically impossible or distracting (e.g., use She became a parent for the first time, not She fathered her first child).

It is illogical now in e.g. " "she was ranked sixth out of the top 20 males" when contrasted with the records table, where Richards was playing as a man.  See also the discussion above. Zezen (talk) 20:45, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * You mean, the statement really should say that such phrases should be exceptions?? For example, it should instead say "He fathered his first child"?? Georgia guy (talk) 20:48, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * For more information, see the "Retroactivity" section of Gender identity. Georgia guy (talk) 21:30, 10 November 2015 (UTC)


 * You got me lost again. Please use full sentences and forgo mental shortcuts and leading questions.

I have read the relevant part of the policy. As I wrote above, such bio parts should read "HE was ranked sixth out of the top 20 males" as per "please avoid phrases that seem logically impossible or distracting" and "Where necessary, an article can clarify how the person presented at whatever stage of life the article is discussing." Zezen (talk) 21:42, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * But do you see the word "can" and not "should"?? Georgia guy (talk) 22:01, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Using your selective nitpicking argument: "But do you see the phrase please avoid and not 'you are free to write illogically' " ;) ? Zezen (talk) 06:47, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * It says that instead of writing "She fathered her first child", write "She became a parent." But you're saying to change it to "He fathered his first child." Do you see the difference?? Georgia guy (talk) 14:09, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Mutatis mutandis, the article thus should be changed "Renée was ranked sixth out of the top 20 males" everywhere. I am happy that we agree. I leave it to others to fix all such illogical gender-specific pronouns here. Zezen (talk) 18:37, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

OK, I can see that another editor has finally made the change. I fix it up, to make it consistent. Now it looks less confusing. Zezen (talk) 17:30, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Quote concerning transgendered in women's sports is truncated
the slate article referenced finishes the quote thus: She added, "There is one thing that a transsexual woman unfortunately cannot expect to be allowed to do, and that is to play professional sports in her chosen field. She can get married, live as woman, do all of those other things, and no one should ever be allowed to take them away from her. But this limitation—that’s just life. I know because I lived it." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.175.185.23 (talk) 16:07, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Birth name
The edit summary "We do not use deadnames on living transgender people" does not describe Wikipedia policy. WP:GENDERID says that we recognize her as female throughout the article, but "The MoS does not specify when and how to present former names, or whether to use the former or present name first." MOS:MULTIPLENAMES says that "In the case of transgender and non-binary people, birth names should be included in the lead sentence only when the person was notable under that name." It says nothing in support of removing this information from the article altogether. We routinely include the birth names of people who have changed their names, regardless of the reason. Additionally, the information that she was named Richard Raskind is useful: it tells us why she selected the surname Richards, and it's necessary for anyone who wants to look up her pre-transition tennis record (for example). Additionally, newspaper reports of the 1970s often referred to her by that name. Whether this makes her notable enough under that name to include it in the lede is debatable. But the information is useful and it's biographical, and there is no policy argument that it should not be included (once) in the section of the article about her early life, where it is relevant. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 13:20, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 November 2019
Please change "Her struggle with sexual identity created sexual confusion, depression, and suicidal tendencies" to "Her struggle with gender identity created confusion, depression, and suicidal tendencies."

Please change "In the mid-1960s she traveled in Europe dressed as a woman, intending to go to North Africa to see Georges Burou, a famous gynecological surgeon at Clinique Parc in Casablanca, Morocco, regarding sex reassignment surgery" to "In the mid-1960s she traveled in Europe dressed as a woman, intending to go to North Africa to see Georges Burou, a famous gynecological surgeon at Clinique Parc in Casablanca, Morocco, regarding gender affirmation surgery." 2A02:1748:DD2D:1511:9061:75BB:2013:6206 (talk) 11:27, 5 November 2019 (UTC)


 * ❌ for the first request – "sexual confusion" is used in the source, and changing that would change the meaning.  Also ❌ for the second per MOS:EUP –  what's there is standard terminology.  –Deacon Vorbis (carbon &bull; videos) 20:55, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Richard's Age
[Ignore. Original age is correct] In the section "Tennis Career After Transitioning" in the second paragraph it states: "Richards played professionally from 1977 to 1981 when she retired at age 47." She was born in 1934, so she was 37 not 47. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brianjgolfer (talk • contribs) 17:47, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Nicholas Raskind
Worthy to add that Renee Richard's son. Nicholas Raskind committed suicide on April 11, 2019. 2601:58C:C200:6950:F6EA:1710:DD10:A0AF (talk) 00:15, 21 July 2024 (UTC)