Talk:Revisionist Zionism/Archive 1

Old discussions
-This is a terrible slander towards the Likud Party. It is true that the latter is Israel's major centre-right movement, but would a Revisionist have orchestrated the Gaza pullout? I suggest that the final paragraph should be seriously revised. Also, I believe that Revisionist major efforts in the economic war against Germany and the Doar Hayom's rigorous antinazism during WWII -Isaiah R, 12/17/04

What in the penultimate paragraph is untrue? Was there not a column titled "from the notebook of a fascist" in the Betar publication mentioned? Did the Jabotinsky lieutenant referred to not write a hymn praising Mussolini? Things are only slanderous if they are untrue, not because they are embarassing. AndyL 23:01, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You still have not adressed my remarks about the final paragraph, nor Doar Hayom's aid in the economic war against Germany (i.e the tremendous support and participation in the boycott). Things are only embarrassing if they are totally true. -Isaiah R, 12/18/04

If you have additional material to add then add it to the article yourself. What I was objecting to is your categorisation of facts you find embarassing as "slander". As you are unable to refute these facts I am removing the claim of factual inaccuracy from the article header. AndyL 15:00, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Allright: I will delete all but the first part (Revisionist Zionism was a minority trend in Zionism) of the first sentance of the last paragraph, and edit it somewhat. In addition, I will add information regarding Revisionist anti-nazism during WWII. If you have any objections, you may post them. -Isaiah R, 12/18/04

No, do not delete factual material just because you don't like the facts. If you want to add material, feel free (as long as it is factual). AndyL 15:31, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Almost none of the last paragraph is factual! -Isaiah R, 12/18/04

Likud is widely recognised as the inheritor and standard bearer of Revisionist Zionism. Menachem Begin would be quite shocked if this were denied. AndyL 15:36, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

If you don't believe me see jsource/Zionism/Revisionist_Zionism.html this article from the Jewish Virtual Library:
 * After the State of Israel was established, the Revisionist Zionist Organization merged with the Etzel-founded Herut movement to form the Herut party, a component of the Likud, one of Israel's two main political parties.

AndyL 15:38, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

See also this article:
 * Jabotinsky's revisionism was the root of the Irgun Zvai Leumi militia in Israel from 1943 until the founding of the State of Israel. Later on, members of the Irgun founded various right-wing poitical parties in Israel, which coalesced in 1973 to form the right-of-centre Likud party. The most prominent of the original parties was the Herut party led by Menachem Begin.

AndyL 15:40, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

While in the beginning of the Likud Party, what you are saying is valid, if you would actually look at the Herut Party website you will see that as of today they believe that the Likud Party has been going very severly against the Revisionist idealogy. -Isaiah R, 12/18/04

A small faction that broke away from Likud in 1998 feel it is no longer Revisionist but Likud still regards itself as the inheritor of the Revisionist Zionist tendency. AndyL 15:57, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Allright, I will accept your revisions. Thank you for taking my advice into account. -Isaiah R, 12/18/04

Begin and Shamir were both members of Likud's Herut faction. Anyway, I've modified the last paragraph thusly:
 * Revisionist Zionism was a minority trend in Zionism for many years but it gained influence in the decades after the creation of the state of Israel. In 1977 the Likud Party a right wing coalition dominated by the Revisionist Herut came to power and has been an important force in Israeli politics ever since. In the decades since first taking power, particularly in the last decade, Likud has undergone a number of splits to its right, including the 1998 departure of Benny Begin, son of Herut founder Menachem Begin. The National Union and other parties to Likud's right now claim that they are the true representatives of Revisionist Zionism and that Likud has abandoned the ideology.

AndyL 16:06, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I have added the following sentance to the final paragraph: "Most contemporary Likud leaders, such as Netanyahu, however, have come from the latter, less Revisionist wing." You may post any objections. Isaiah R, 12/18/04

-This is a terrible slander towards the Likud Party. It is true that the latter is Israel's major centre-right movement, but would a Revisionist have orchestrated the Gaza pullout? I suggest that the final paragraph should be seriously revised. Also, I believe that Revisionist major efforts in the economic war against Germany and the Doar Hayom's rigorous antinazism during WWII -Isaiah R, 12/17/04

What in the penultimate paragraph is untrue? Was there not a column titled "from the notebook of a fascist" in the Betar publication mentioned? Did the Jabotinsky lieutenant referred to not write a hymn praising Mussolini? Things are only slanderous if they are untrue, not because they are embarassing. AndyL 23:01, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You still have not adressed my remarks about the final paragraph, nor Doar Hayom's aid in the economic war against Germany (i.e the tremendous support and participation in the boycott). Things are only embarrassing if they are totally true. -Isaiah R, 12/18/04

If you have additional material to add then add it to the article yourself. What I was objecting to is your categorisation of facts you find embarassing as "slander". As you are unable to refute these facts I am removing the claim of factual inaccuracy from the article header. AndyL 15:00, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Allright: I will delete all but the first part (Revisionist Zionism was a minority trend in Zionism) of the first sentance of the last paragraph, and edit it somewhat. In addition, I will add information regarding Revisionist anti-nazism during WWII. If you have any objections, you may post them. -Isaiah R, 12/18/04

No, do not delete factual material just because you don't like the facts. If you want to add material, feel free (as long as it is factual). AndyL 15:31, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Almost none of the last paragraph is factual! -Isaiah R, 12/18/04

Likud is widely recognised as the inheritor and standard bearer of Revisionist Zionism. Menachem Begin would be quite shocked if this were denied. AndyL 15:36, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

If you don't believe me see jsource/Zionism/Revisionist_Zionism.html this article from the Jewish Virtual Library:
 * After the State of Israel was established, the Revisionist Zionist Organization merged with the Etzel-founded Herut movement to form the Herut party, a component of the Likud, one of Israel's two main political parties.

AndyL 15:38, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

See also this article:
 * Jabotinsky's revisionism was the root of the Irgun Zvai Leumi militia in Israel from 1943 until the founding of the State of Israel. Later on, members of the Irgun founded various right-wing poitical parties in Israel, which coalesced in 1973 to form the right-of-centre Likud party. The most prominent of the original parties was the Herut party led by Menachem Begin.

AndyL 15:40, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

While in the beginning of the Likud Party, what you are saying is valid, if you would actually look at the Herut Party website you will see that as of today they believe that the Likud Party has been going very severly against the Revisionist idealogy. -Isaiah R, 12/18/04

A small faction that broke away from Likud in 1998 feel it is no longer Revisionist but Likud still regards itself as the inheritor of the Revisionist Zionist tendency. AndyL 15:57, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Allright, I will accept your revisions. Thank you for taking my advice into account. -Isaiah R, 12/18/04

Begin and Shamir were both members of Likud's Herut faction. Anyway, I've modified the last paragraph thusly:
 * Revisionist Zionism was a minority trend in Zionism for many years but it gained influence in the decades after the creation of the state of Israel. In 1977 the Likud Party a right wing coalition dominated by the Revisionist Herut came to power and has been an important force in Israeli politics ever since. In the decades since first taking power, particularly in the last decade, Likud has undergone a number of splits to its right, including the 1998 departure of Benny Begin, son of Herut founder Menachem Begin. The National Union and other parties to Likud's right now claim that they are the true representatives of Revisionist Zionism and that Likud has abandoned the ideology.

AndyL 16:06, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I have added the following sentance to the final paragraph: "Most contemporary Likud leaders, such as Netanyahu, however, have come from the latter, less Revisionist wing." You may post any objections. Isaiah R, 12/18/04