Talk:Rhythm changes

basic progression sub-dominant?
I always thought the most common way to play the changes was: I V7/ii | ii  V7

That's what I hear in many of these songs. Should this be up on the page? Jrgsf (talk) 21:16, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

main section
Nate, thanks for your comments in response to my recent post in the disussion of the article "Jazz", in the section "Much more needed...". It is true that the article Bebop is alot more informative! BTW, In the discussion of Rhythm changes don't you want to also mention the "F-bridge": v / I7 /IV7 / IV7/ II7 / II7 / ii / V / ...see for example, Constellation below. I took the liberty of creating a table from your previous list. Best regards128.231.88.4 04:39, 30 March 2007 (UTC)Grant Izmirlian

NOTE
If someone wants to add the following section, this list was found with google:

Samples
It would be nice to have a sample of the original gershwin and a couple examples of how it was used by various artists. --joeyo 23:56, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Chords
I see that a recent editor has fiddled the chords again, replacing the vi7 with a VI7 (dominant 7th) & then changing the F#-dim to F-dim. I suspect these may be closer to what Gershwin originally wrote (haven't got the sheet music here), & they're certainly one possible path through the chords, but I don't think that they are the usual rhythm changes--at least, most tunes written on them do not imply a VI7 in the 2nd half of the 1st bar, & I dunno about that diminished chord either. (FWIW I just flipped to the "Rhythm Changes" chart in one of my fakebooks here & indeed it has the F#-dim not F-dim.)

Anyway, there really isn't one set of "right" changes--basically anything that's in the neighbourhood of the tonic will work on the A section, & anything circling around the fifths to land on the tonic will work on the B section. But I think that the previous version is closer to "normal" rhythm changes, so the edit should be reverted.

Thoughts, anyone? --ND 14:06, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


 * http://www.learnjazzstandards.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Bb-Rhythm-Changes-C-Instruments.pdf68.48.204.94 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:54, 27 January 2012 (UTC).

Partial Rhythm Changes
Do you include pieces that are partly based on the RC? I just see that Monk's (?) 52nd St. Theme goes Cmaj–Amin–Dmin–G7–C–Amin–Dmin–G7–etc., but the bridge goes way out.--Mardhil (talk) 05:02, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

media file
you gotta me kidding me. this sample file sounds like shit. stride piano? gotta be kidding man..

using the ms moron synth would enhance this piece of garbage significantly.

also, its the I VI7(V/ii) ii V variant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.180.155.26 (talk) 20:27, 15 May 2010

Rhythm Changes Bridge
Ladies and gentlemen:

Please note that there is only one "Rhythm Changes" bridge - the bridge from Gershwin's "I Got Rhythm". (III7/VI7/II7/V7 or a variant thereof) Jazz musicians of all eras have delighted in cutting and pasting, putting parts of various tunes together to make new tunes - a prime example is the bridge progression I7/IV7/II/V7 (and variants) mentioned several times above. This is a simplified version of the bridge to "Honeysuckle Rose". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.109.68.34 (talk) 06:04, 1 February 2011

why in C, instead of Bb
Why would you give the example in C? The tradition is that it's in Bb?69.250.189.107 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 02:34, 25 January 2012 (UTC).


 * Why not. Hyacinth (talk) 07:17, 25 January 2012 (UTC)


 * BECAUSE the "tradition and convention" is that's its in Bb. The citation for that is so ubiquitous (literally thousands of jazz books and articles that it is beyond reproach. (Of course anything can be played in any key.) As the article even says: "While rhythm changes can be played in any key, they are most commonly played in concert B-flat."  To put the example in C is against the convention and tradition, and needs be justified rather than the other way around.


 * Please fix it!68.48.204.94 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:47, 27 January 2012 (UTC).


 * If it is mentioned in thousands of books and articles it should be easy to actually cite or quote one. Hyacinth (talk) 22:23, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

It's kind of like having to have a citation for the sky is traditional called blue, but from a quick google scholar search:

Mickey Baker's Complete course in jazz guitar, Lewis Music Publishing The Herb Ellis Jazz Guitar Method: Rhythm Shapes, Herb Ellis, Terry Holmes ISBN 13: 9781576233412 Scott, Michael Douglas, The Development and Validation of an Instrument for the Authentic Assessment of Jazz Improvisation Over 12-bar Blues and 32-bar 'Rhythm' Changes ProQuest, 2007 Martin and Waters, Essential Jazz: The First 100 Years, Cengage Learning, 2008 Mintzer, Playing Jazz Piano, Alfred Music Publishing, 2008 Rawlins and Bahha, Jazzology: The Encyclopedia of Jazz Theory for All Musicians,Hal Leonard Corporation, 2005

There are pages and pages.68.55.60.111 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:25, 8 August 2012 (UTC)


 * See No personal attacks and WP:C & WP:V. Hyacinth (talk) 00:55, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

What I got from the mass above is: Hyacinth (talk) 07:53, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Baker, Mickey (2004)this date is wrong. Mickey Baker's Complete Course in Jazz Guitar, PAGE 50 see below. ISBN 9780825652806.
 * Ellis, Herb and Holmes, Terry (1996). The Herb Ellis Jazz Guitar Method: Rhythm Shapes, p.4-5. ISBN 9781576233412. Notated in B♭.
 * Scott, Michael Douglas (2007). "The Development and Validation of an Instrument for the Authentic Assessment of Jazz Improvisation Over 12-bar Blues and 32-bar 'Rhythm' Changes", . ProQuest.
 * Martin, Henry and Waters, Keith (2005/2008). Essential Jazz: The First 100 Years, p.13. ISBN 9780534638108/ISBN 9780495505259. No indication of key.
 * Mintzer, Bob (2008). Playing Jazz Piano, p.18. ISBN 9780739054024. Notated in B♭.
 * Rawlins, Robert and Bahha, Nor Eddine (2005). Jazzology: The Encyclopedia of Jazz Theory for All Musicians, p.128. ISBN 9780634086786. Chord names in B♭.


 * Mickey Baker's Complete Course in Jazz Guitar citation is NOT 2004 because I've had a copy of Book 1 for thirty years (since at least 1982 but there is no date in it) and it had been around for maybe 30 years before that. At PAGE 50:

"Rhythm changes are pretty much the sme as vamps. The only difference is this, when a musician say let's play some rhythm changes they are always in Bb major (concert)."

"I can go so far as to say that every Jazz Musician ever to have a name, has recorded the changes over and over again, and every musician that has ever owned an instrument has played them hundres of times. So you can see just how important rhythm changes are."

"In this Lesson I have written out the chord changes that are the best in most cases (at least, the ones that I use the most), ...."

On Amazon, the publishing date is listed as 1996. But you can see from the comments that the books has been around since the mid 1960s.

68.55.60.111 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:04, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


 * See edition (book). Hyacinth (talk) 04:06, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Removed
For example, here is the form with substitutions used by the guitarist, Mickey Baker:

| BbM6 Gb7 | F11  Gb7     | BbM6 Gb7   | F11  Gb7  | | Bb  Dbm7 | Cmi7 F13b5b9 | BbM6 Gb7   | F11  F13b9|

| BbM6 Gb7 | F11  Gb7     | BbM6 Gb7   | F11  Gb7  | | Bb  Dbm7 | Cmi7 F13b5b9 | BbM6 F13b9 | BbM6      |

| D13      | D13  D13#5b9 | Dm6        | G13       | | C13      | C13  C13#5b9 | Cm6        | F13b9     |

| BbM6 Gb7 | F11  Gb7     | BbM6 Gb7   | F11  Gb7  | | Bb  Dbm7 | Cmi7 F13b5b9 | BbM6 F13b9 | BbM6      | The above was removed as uncited. I moved it here as there is a mention of Mickey Baker above and I thought you may be able to complete the citation. Hyacinth (talk) 07:38, 4 September 2012 (UTC)


 * whatever, the citation is right there in the previous section "at Page 50". I don't really care. It was just to show what jazz substitutions might look like.68.48.204.94 (talk) 20:21, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Source
The most frequently cited source in this article is from a "free guitar lessons" website: :http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/moneychords/ The site itself actually uses this article as a reference and links here. All information attributed to the MoneyChords page should be removed, or else backed up be reliable sources. BassHistory (talk) 04:31, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * It looks like MoneyChords may be cribing from the Spitzer citation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.55.60.111 (talk) 20:55, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Note that the "frequent" citations to the MoneyChords "Rhythm Changes" article are almost all in this article's list of songs using the changes. The MoneyChords article actually credits Wikipedia for only its last portion, showing the chord changes (in the key of C). I don't think we can really criticize a website for being free, unless you think Wikipedia should start charging. However, WP:SELFSOURCE provides some justification for viewing this source as unreliable. Hyacinth (talk) 01:36, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Music File: Rhythm changes complete in B-flat


Nobody comps changes like that. Half note chords? If someone is going to create a file, do it correctly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.55.60.111 (talk) 13:57, 28 August 2012 (UTC)


 * First you have provided no suggestion as to how the file should sound. Second, the sound file conveys the idea of the changes without any extraneous information. Third, I don't think you could prove that no one comps like that. Hyacinth (talk) 21:33, 28 August 2012 (UTC)


 * So sorry if anyone does. Maybe they could just search youtube for "Rhythm Changes Trio (Bb)" or "Rhythm Changes" in general.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.48.204.94 (talk) 21:05, 31 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Also, notice that there are two files. Three if you count other sound file recently removed. Hyacinth (talk) 22:51, 31 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Who are "they"? Hyacinth (talk) 22:51, 31 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Any suggestion as to an improvement or correction? Any suggestion as to how the file should sound? Hyacinth (talk) 03:58, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Did you notice the audio file changed? Hyacinth (talk) 07:48, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Rhythm_changes.ogg
What is wrong with File:Rhythm_changes.ogg? Hyacinth (talk) 03:56, 3 September 2012 (UTC)


 * It is orginal research. You made it.  And it still ain't any better. 68.48.204.94 (talk) 18:54, 3 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Actually, if you click on the file title above or to the right you will be taken to the file information page. There you can see that the file was made by User:Schweiwikist. The user who made the file does not affect it appropriateness for this article.
 * For information about original research, see WP:OR. How is it original research? Are the "rhythm changes" themselves made up? Are the chord changes in the audio file incorrect? Do you just not like the sound of the synthesizer used? Hyacinth (talk) 07:33, 4 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, who the heck is Schweiwikist? Nobody and yeah it sounds bad.  The "Bb play" was your file. Now you have a file called "Ellis", ostensible Herb Ellis.  But that isn't really Herb Ellis.  Did you ever hear Herb Ellis play before he passed away.  I heard him on more than one occaision with Barney Kessel and Charlie Byrd.  Why don't you google (youtube) Herb Ellis and "Flinstones"  which is basically "rhythm changes" and listen to the youtube.  On youtube, listen to "Walking Bass Lines Rhythm Changes" Bill Harrison.  You might also learn something about substitutions. 68.48.204.94 (talk) 20:11, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

The music files stink and are original reasearch
The music files stink and are original research. They should be removed, until their presence is justified in some way by the poster.

And why the heck should Hyacinth edit/remove my comments in talk section. That's really just vandalism.

As I explained in talk section until removed by Hyacinth. The sound files are 1) original research and 2) stink. If someone has Gershwin version or a version of "changes" by a known jazz musician, that would make sense to add. But otherwise, this is just some unknown pseudo expert posted his idea of music.68.55.60.111 (talk) 04:08, 3 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Please show me the where I removed your comments. See: Help:Page history.
 * You don't need to start a new section every time you post a comment. We already have sections for this issue, directly above. See: Talk page guidelines.
 * "This stinks" isn't a reason. Why does it stink?
 * Hyacinth (talk) 04:22, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
 * It stinks because it ain't jazz. Why not just listen to tinyurlDOTcom 8gfoonb 68.48.204.94 (talk) 18:22, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by "Gershwin version"? Do you mean "I Got Rhythm"? By "version of 'changes' by a known jazz musician" do you mean an audio clip of a recording? Hyacinth (talk) 07:49, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Slashes indicate improvisation?
Slashes do not really indicate improvisation, per se. They indicate the beats and where the changes happen. SeeChord chart68.48.204.94 (talk) 18:48, 3 September 2012 (UTC)