Talk:Role-playing game/Archive 1

Old talk
Please, do not add Computer RPGs here - they are already listed in Computer Role Playing Games article.

Forseti 07:46, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

26/7/2001 Should the games listing come out of the main page and instead go to somewhere like RPG/RPG Listings? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rrees (talk • contribs) 14:18, 27 July 2001 (UTC)
 * Well, there are also listings in the subgenre articles, so I think we should merge them. --zeno 07:28 Jan 16, 2003 (UTC)

I think the more useful distinction is between Role-playing games and Role-playing generally. I'm taking the latter from this page and making a new page just for the more general case.

Also note that I use "role-playing" as the generic term more commonly linked to psychological uses because it is so cited in Webster's New World College Dictionary. Moreover, I am adopting the "role-playing game" usage (hyphen between role and playing) in order to follow that convention and because it makes sense grammatically (hyphenate compound adjectives modifying a noun).

However I am thinking that "role-play game" follows common usage better than "role-playing game." But I'm not going to redirect the page now, anyway (Dec. 26, 2001) -- Cayzle


 * No one I know of (and I know lots of gamers) says "role-play game". It's always "role-playing game", and I am sure that's the most common usage.  -- ansible

Not to sound like a nerd or anything, but White Wolf is not, strictly speaking, a role-playing game. They are a publisher. Their role-playing game universe, World of Darkness, encompasses between 5 and 12 or so (depending on how you count them) role-playing games... OK. I'm really not that much of a nerd... OK. Maybe just a bit. --Dante Alighieri 10:39 Dec 6, 2002 (UTC)


 * I added the "Notable RPG Developers and Publishers" heading for links to companies (and maybe individual creators). Mrwojo 16:15 Dec 6, 2002 (UTC)

Isn't Battletech more a table-top war game and not an RPG? I have never played it, but isn't there Mechwarrior, which is an RPG based on Battletech's world? --zeno 07:24 Jan 16, 2003 (UTC)

Battletech was purely wargame, then Mechwarrior was made to turn it into an RPG, however they are basically the same thing, Mechwarrior is like AD&Ds Player Handbook and BattleTech rules are simply the rules for combat, battletech being more complex than AD&D. Battletech is notable from other RPGs in that correctly played one's character is as mortal as all the enemies one fights, so usually you die. Its basically a wargame where the units have stats which change over the course of a campaign, and most people generally have the commander of their forces represent themselves, thus, an RPG and a wargame. Also its common for the GM or DM to be replaced by a classical referee and then the players, instead of playing as a team, go to war with each other. Vera Cruz

- Battletech was a miniatures game, based on Japanese anime, in the "mech" genre. Later a set of rules was developed that allowed one to play a mech pilot in an ongoing campaign. Battletech was published FASA, which is now out of business. Along with Battletech FASA also published games such as "Behind Enemy Lines" (World War Two skirmish game), "Shadowrun" (cyberpunk/'magic returns' roleplaying), and "Earthdawn" (fantasy roleplaying). At present both Battletech and Earthdawn have found new publishers.

For a list of RPGs I recommend trying the Yahoo and Google directories You will find listings for literally hundreds of games. Have fun.

Finally, when I have it composed I will be uploading an essay on roleplaying games, and why they really aren't games at all. At least not in the traditional sense of a game as something with victory conditions and competition among the participants.

Hope this finds you all well.mythusmage 15:14 Feb 9, 2003 (UTC)


 * Sounds interesting, but remember that Wikipedia tries to maintain a neutral point of view. It may be better to simply provide a link to your essay. -- Modemac 15:43 Feb 9, 2003 (UTC)

- Merriam-Webster's definition of game includes as its first entry activity engaged in for diversion or amusement and then equates it with play. Dictionary.com defines, again as the first entry, a game as being an activity providing entertainment or amusement. Just by these two references alone (and you'll find similar in any good dictionary) attempts to declare role-playing games as something other than games are a good source of humour.

I would also be very interested in seeing a coherent definition of game that was "traditional" in the way Mythusmage seems to think is traditional that manages to somehow not exclude such traditional things--long labelled as games--as mathematical games, in which there is no competition, parlour games, in which there is usually no competition and often no victory condition, games like &#22260;&#26827; (Go), which were initially fortune-telling devices with no hint of competition nor victory and drinking games, in which there is sometimes competition but no real victory condition, whilst simultaneously excluding role-playing games.

If he can pull it off, I'll be very impressed. -- Michael 09:34 21 May 2003 (UTC) - In a discussion I'm having with another person comes the question of defining an RPG by a purely mechanical system (as if RPGs were a game of chess or cards dressed up in fantasy) vs. a system that requires a human referee to intervene and move the 'role playing' action. It was suggested to me by Otter that, &quot;If I can't whip it out and urinate on the boot of an opposing character, personally offend that character, and have that change the outcome of gameplay, it isn't really roleplaying.&quot; I understand there are those who disagree, but that notion clearly distinguishes between a pure 'rule based systems design' like chess or cards with Fantasy dressing, and a design that requires the judgement of a human to discern arbitrary and unexpected actions players may take. -- Romaq 00:41 18 July 2003 (UTC) - RPGs are not purely mechanical, that is the primary difference between an RPG and most other games. RPGs are akin to that game played by Calvin and Hobbes in which the rules are made up, at whim, by the players. In fact, most RPG rules clearly state that players should not interpret these rules as mechanical law; but rather, merely as suggestions. Pizza Puzzle


 * But there are a class of players who do insist on rigid enforcement of rules. They are typically "power-gamers", interested in building up their character rather than roleplaying.  They are sometimes aided by a "Monty Haul DM", a DM/GM who gives lots of unearned abilities and items, unbalancing the game.

- Excellent, and that reflects my view. However the person was attempting to use Wikipedia as a 'definitive answer' to list a specific MMO-RPG (COUGH!) as a 'role playing game' by a generally accepted definition. My contention is that an 'MMORPG' that starts out as a single player twitch-game with 'multi-user' thrown in does not an RPG make, no matter how they claim the title. At least in my 'classical' definition in accordance with 'Most RPG rules clearly state... these rules (are not) mechanical law...' as you say above. When it comes to Massive Multiplayer Online Role Play Games (MMORPG) the law is, "That which the committe of developers intends, spoken or not, is the law, and the whole of the law, mechanicly enforced by rote. Thou shalt not violate the intentions of the committe, even if such intentions are unspoken and mechanicly enforced by rote." That directly conflicts with the human spirit, "Anything not forbidden is compulsary". True 'acting out a role for entertainment' can't possibly be managed without constant and direct application of an organic brain capable of laughing when a player literally wrenches off an NPC's head and deficates down the NPC's neck. Mechanical state systems, and I dare say most MMORPG Dev Teams lack an organic sense of humor and fail miserably when it comes to genuine 'role playing gaming'.

Is it possible to create such a distinction within the 'Role-playing game' web page without giving up neutrality? I don't wish to argue if MMORPG's can truely exist in the RPG sense. In my offline debate I do strongly suggest that this specific game is a 'twitch/ macro mechanical game with fantasy trappings, recently converted from single-user to multi-user'. I'm not sure this person has ever played an extended campaign on a table-top game with live people. I have not either, for that matter, but I do believe that the sense of 'RPG' is distinctly different between the two 'games'. Is this sense of organic rules vs. pure mechanical rules fitting for mention within the definition page? -- Romaq 09:21 18 July 2003 (UTC)

My understanding is that you are asking whether computerized RPGs are substantially different than paper RPGs. The answer is absolutely but they are still RPGs. Now some computer RPGs, such as Baldur's Gate, (and basically every single MUD/MUX/all the computer RPGs) are pretty mechanistic - but that, of course, is a result of computer code being so difficult to write. A good computer RPG would be, in essence, run like a paper RPG where the computer was a tool, just like a pair of dice.

I think the question here isn't really whether computer RPGs are or aren't RPGs, they are definitely RPGs - but I think it is fair to say that most all paper-RPG players have found something lacking in the computerized RPGs. But its also fair to note that many paper-RPGs find something also lacking in the paper-RPGs - there is something to be said for having a computer which can instantly calculate morale, line-of-sight, weapons effects, and render colored 3-dimensional images. Pizza Puzzle

- I have made a mistake. Editing certain subjects in seperate sections, I seem to have deleted most of the content of the entire entry. I don't know how to restore the entry, especially with this new subsectioning structure.

Does anyone know how?

Kchishol

I'd like to suggest a revision of the categorisation in the article. Several games seem misplaced, and several others seem to belong more together though they sort of seem to fit their current category.

For instance, Metamorphosis Alpha is listed as a Near-Future game, which it's not. It inspired and was the basis for Gamma World, but Metamorphosis Alpha is actually a science-fiction game set aboard a spaceship which has become a world unto itself, similar in concept to Red Dwarf or Heinlein's Orphans of the Sky.

Gamma World could be considered a Near-Future setting, though it's timeframe is set about the same as Buck Roger's (mental note to add BR to GW influences, consider the 'Forest of Mutants' thing) but it fits more closely with RIFTS than anything else. But RIFTS is seperated out. TORG also fits rather closely with RIFTS, but is listed a a universal game, which it's not, really -- it's a universal *setting* and can be sued as a universal game, but it's really a post-apocalypse game with a particularly weird apocalypse (as is RIFTS).

Perhaps a 'cross-genre' section to cover things like Shadowrun, Rifts, TORG, etc. Or a Post-Apocalypse section to cover RIFTS, TORG, and GW (actually, SR would fit there too, as there is a magical sort of apocalypse that occursd as a key element of the storyline).

I dunno, maybe this stuff is simply unsortable.

---

Gah! Several edits ago a huge chunk of material has been deleted! Is it worth ditching the last 6 or 7 revisions to get the old information back?

San de Berg 15:45, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

preserved dup content
From a semi-dup, possibly useful:

"Roleplaying games are a hobby, most commonly found in the U.S. and England, that provide an opportunity for enthusiasts to act out the roles of imaginary individuals of their design in a non-drama setting.

"Most people in America have heard of the game Dungeons and Dragons. In fact, the game, created in 1974, is (as of 2004) over thirty years old. But there are few people who really know what constitutes a game of Dungeons and Dragons, or even what it would look like to see people playing.

"The most traditional form of roleplaying games involves a map, figurines, notes of game statistics, character sheets, dice of varying shapes, and writing utensils. Play centers around the players acting out the roles of their chosen characters (which they have designed before play) in a combination of verbal description, dice-rolling to determine the outcome of events, and a referee in the form of a Game Master or Dungeon Master. The referee's job consists of overseeing dice rolls, explaining the outcome of player choices about the game, and acting out the roles of every necessary character that the players do not themselves perform.

"By "every necessary character", imagine a traditional play. Some of the major characters are performed by the players, while extras, walk-on characters, and major characters that do not belong to the players are all covered by the referee. Due to the largely verbal nature of the game, it is possible for the referee to occupy as many roles as necessary for the game to flow properly. While most forms of roleplaying games use dice, papers, and character sheets, the use of maps and figurines and similar visual aids is disputed and often ignored in the interest of a more purely verbal experience. Some groups even forego dice, papers, and character sheets, in the interest of being as "unburdened" and "open" as possible.

"In the roleplaying game scene, there is a notion that hobbyists of the scene exist on a continuum that reflects how many play aids they use. The most "hard core" and "traditional" hobbyists of the scene are thought to use all of the play aids mentioned above in traditional play. The continuum runs the gamut from this point to a style of gaming that uses no play aids whatsoever, or may only use character sheets and no other play aids.

"While there are many points of contention among hobbyists as to how exactly one should play roleplaying games, one of the biggest issues is whether dice should be used. The use of dice provides a sense of randomness and saves the referee some effort, keeping him or her from having to arbitrarily decide the outcome of every single player option. A lack of dice in play, however, allows the narrative of the game to continue without interruption, and for the players to get deeply into character in their roles.

"The content of roleplaying games tends to follow very genre-focused and pulp-style settings, particularly science fiction and fantasy styles. There is a strong, recent movement among some hobbyists of this scene to attempt to create settings in the "real world" and in the style of realistic fiction. In addition, there is a recent movement that attempts to create independent games, following a DIY work ethic."

Stan 20:11, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

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