Talk:Romani people

Romani roots in India
Although the article states that the Romani are from Rajasthan, what I had heard over many years of reading about them is that they are from Punjab. I would like to follow up on this at some point but would invite others who may be more into linguistics to pick up and take it forward. Augnablik (talk) 13:16, 29 April 2023 (UTC)


 * The citation is basically someone speculating on cultural elements of the Romani people. Modern genetic research points towards a Punjabi origin, but just like anything else, most of us are tired of edit warring and its seriously demoralising to see academic sources being removed all the time by the usual suspects. KamranHassanUK (talk) 23:21, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

There seems to be a disconnect with this article and the “History of the Romani people” that article states

“Mitochondrial or Y-chromosome haplotype studies provide valuable information, but a limitation of these types of studies is that they each represent only one instantiation of the genealogical process. Autosomal data permits simultaneous analysis of multiple lineages, which can provide novel information about population history. According to a genetic study on autosomal data on Roma the source of South Asian Ancestry in Roma is North-West India. The two populations showing closest relatedness to Roma were Punjabis and Kashmiris which also happen to have the highest West Eurasian related ancestry amongst South Asians.[24] However according to a study on genome-wide data published in 2019 the putative origin of the proto Roma involves a Punjabi group with low levels of West Eurasian ancestry.[25] The classical and mtDNA genetic markers suggested the closest affinity of the Roma with Rajput and Punjabi populations from North-Western India.“

But more importantly they don’t state these at facts just scientific theory on their origins which is very important this article language speaks as if it’s facts and there’s no debate on their origins. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.144.112.243 (talk) 18:38, 1 November 2023 (UTC)


 * They originate in Haryana and Rajasthan, Haryana is geographically part of the Punjab Plain, so you are technically right. 1Dude345 (talk) 15:39, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Hindutva propaganda in article?
although the Indian origin of the Romani people is undeniable, and likewise that Saint Sarah is the syncretization of the Hindu goddess Kali into catholicism, there's a section I take issue with due to how arrogant it seems to me "Saint Sarah is now increasingly being considered as "a Romani Goddess, the Protectress of the Roma" and an "indisputable link with Mother India"" Mother India to me at least seems like a very loaded and nationalistic way to refer to India, and is the main issue I have, and while we know it's a link with India no serious researcher until 100% sure says something is indisputable, it sounds like whoever added this is trying to frame a akhand Bharat narrative or is at minimum a hindutvadi, although a hindutva takeover of English Wikipedia is unlikely to ever happen we must avoid alterations in articles that may tend to a far right nationalist direction, else we get what happened to Croatian Wikipedia that was basically taken over by fascist apologists Dusamatriarch (talk) 21:54, 21 December 2023 (UTC)


 * maybe they're just quoting a source tho, if so that should be emphasized to avoid giving the impression of bias, no matter how true the overall point is Dusamatriarch (talk) 21:56, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The syncretization you suggest might well be correct among the Romani, by I would note that the Saint Sarah mentioned is actually not a Saint of the Catholic Church. Bobby Lawndale (talk) 13:23, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Article issues

 * Sometimes things just creep in: Some issues need resolving to prevent possible reassessment?
 * This article is assessed B-class but there are what appears to be several issues that someone should check out.
 * There are two unsourced paragraphs in the Artistic representations section and an unsourced single sentence paragraph in the "Porajmos (Romani Holocaust)" section. The criteria (#1) states: The article is suitably referenced, with inline citations. It has reliable sources, and any important or controversial material which is likely to be challenged is cited.
 * The Romani people section has unsourced sentences dropped in after a source. This just gives the appearance of an unsourced tag along sentence. "The Other endonyms for Romani include, for example:" (subsection) is a long embedded list with 49 entries. Many are sourced. Many are active links, but several are unsourced.
 * If a source is just misplaced this would be an easy fix. That may or may not be the case. Any content that does not have an inline citation needs a Reliable source: This page in a nutshell: Wikipedia requires inline citations for any material challenged or likely to be challenged, and for all quotations. The WP:Verifiability policy requires proof on any material "challenged or is likely to be challenged". This is satisfied by providing an inline citation.
 * Several citations (I didn't count) appear to be the same source. One such source, Hübshmanová, is used 15 times. The source does not have pages but many paragraphs. It seems to me a paragraph number (count) identification could be used.
 * The "See also" section is very lengthy having thirty-four links (two removed), three subsections, and I think some can be trimmed. The article has a fairly covered "Persecutions" section, "Historical persecution" subsection (with a main of Anti-Romani sentiment, a "Forced assimilation" subsection, with Main article: Expulsion of Romani people from France, and a "Porajmos (Romani Holocaust)" subsection with Romani Holocaust as a main article. The Contemporary issues also has a Main article: Anti-Romani sentiment § Contemporary antiziganism, and a "Forced repatriation" subsection listing a Main article: Expulsion of Romani people from France
 * Note: I have not considered that any of these should not be in the article. My point is that the "See also" section has Anti-Romani sentiment, Anti-Hindu sentiment, Anti-Indian sentiment, and near the bottom, Romani Holocaust. It just seems the article is leaning away from "Romani people" and towards a more negative narritive.
 * I have removed two links that were redundant. Any others that are used in the article do not need to be repeated, and some can likely be used and linked to in the article.
 * External links: This is a mess. The "External links" section, one of the optional appendices, has grown to Twenty-four links in six subsections. Three seems to be an acceptable number and of course, everyone has their favorite to add for four links in this section.
 * The problem is that none are needed for article promotion.


 * ELpoints #3) states: Links in the "External links" section should be kept to a minimum. A lack of external links or a small number of external links is not a reason to add external links.
 * LINKFARM states: There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to the external links section of an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia. On articles about topics with many fansites, for example, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate.
 * ELMIN: Minimize the number of links. --
 * ELCITE: Do not use cite web or other citation templates in the External links section. Citation templates are permitted in the Further reading section.
 * WP:ELBURDEN: Disputed links should be excluded by default unless and until there is a consensus to include them.
 * Some of the links may include ones that are probably not needed, and some that can be included in the article with sources.
 * Per WP:ELBURDEN I have trimmed excessive links and moved those here for any possible future discussion on what should be included.


 * Excessive links moved from article:


 * . History of some Roma Europeans
 * ; The concentration, labor, ghetto camps that the Roma were persecuted in during World War II
 * Shot in remote areas of the Thar desert in west India, captures the lives of vanishing nomadic communities who are believed to share common ancestors with the Roma people –  released 2004
 * Shot in remote areas of the Thar desert in west India, captures the lives of vanishing nomadic communities who are believed to share common ancestors with the Roma people –  released 2004
 * Shot in remote areas of the Thar desert in west India, captures the lives of vanishing nomadic communities who are believed to share common ancestors with the Roma people –  released 2004
 * Shot in remote areas of the Thar desert in west India, captures the lives of vanishing nomadic communities who are believed to share common ancestors with the Roma people –  released 2004
 * Shot in remote areas of the Thar desert in west India, captures the lives of vanishing nomadic communities who are believed to share common ancestors with the Roma people –  released 2004
 * Shot in remote areas of the Thar desert in west India, captures the lives of vanishing nomadic communities who are believed to share common ancestors with the Roma people –  released 2004
 * Shot in remote areas of the Thar desert in west India, captures the lives of vanishing nomadic communities who are believed to share common ancestors with the Roma people –  released 2004

General information
 * — education on the arts and civil rights movements
 * — transcontinental perspective

International organisations

Non-governmental organisations
 * . Beginning in 1888, the Gypsy Lore Society started to publish a journal that was meant to dispel rumors about their lifestyle.
 * . Beginning in 1888, the Gypsy Lore Society started to publish a journal that was meant to dispel rumors about their lifestyle.

Museums and libraries
 * The most comprehensive collection of information on Kosovo's Roma in existence.
 * The most comprehensive collection of information on Kosovo's Roma in existence.
 * The most comprehensive collection of information on Kosovo's Roma in existence.
 * The most comprehensive collection of information on Kosovo's Roma in existence.
 * The most comprehensive collection of information on Kosovo's Roma in existence.

Internet Visual Media
 * Inaugural Romani Studies Conference at UC Berkeley: YouTube
 * Florian: YouTube TikTok - Romani YouTuber & TikToker whose material covers Roma culture, history, and civil rights -- Otr500 (talk) 00:57, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

gypsies Are Jews new research 2024
Macrodynamics For Religious Origins From Shem and Advance of Hebrews And Future Israelite, Jewish, and Related Groups 2A02:8108:50C0:3A54:B564:9A6E:7E6C:866 (talk) 23:10, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
 * One paper on genetic analysis and semantic games by one person whose fields are physics and computational science and whose writing is scattered, sometimes unintelligible (there's a paragraph in there that isn't even a complete sentence) and filled with "may" and "hypothesis" and "it is proposed" isn't a valid basis for anything that might be said in this article. Largoplazo (talk) 23:42, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
 * it is stated clearly and unambiguously that it is confirmed. And the source of the Jewish priests is also mentioned. It is also highlighted that the Gypsies, like other peoples, have very high Middle Eastern haplogroups. It is also mentioned that all of these groups with apparently Semitic origins have the right to return to Israel according to certain criteria and can even be Israelite citizens. It is also mentioned in the Romani sentence which letters they are assigned to, which you can see on page 3 at the bottom of what these letters stand for (H,I,JM,C), and you can read this reference in another study. Within the H-M82 haplogroup, an identical 8-microsatellite Y chromo-some haplotype is shared by nearly 30% of Gypsy men, an astonishing degree of preservation of a highly differentiated lineage, previously described only in Jewish priests. The source is also indicated as marked on page 4, footnote 12. Thomas, et. al. 1998. "Origins of Old Testament priests", Nature 394 138-140 2A02:8108:50C0:3A54:B564:9A6E:7E6C:866 (talk) 11:20, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The Moon is made of cheese and I confirm it. I am stating that clearly and unambiguously. There, it's true, on the strength of one person saying so, even with no one else on the planet, including actual astronomers and geologists, vouching for my finding, let alone any larger consensus. I'm going over to the Moon article and update it with my findings right now.
 * Besides, neither you nor Lissner seems to understand that Semites include more than Jews. If you think the Israeli Law of Return applies to Semitic peoples in general, you must think that most of the people in the Middle East have the right to settle in Israel. Largoplazo (talk) 12:04, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

you're talking utter nonsense. First read the research carefully. Apparently you don't understand what the professors are writing to you. And it's not just one institution that's researching everything, but several scientists, which is also stated right at the top of the document who was involved. They have been researching this study for years with other scientists and genetic researchers. Everything in this document has been recorded, from different studies over the years, always on different groups of the world. The genetic database is publicly available to every researcher and scientist. And it is clearly marked in this document which peoples, groups and subgroups the Israelites and Jews belong to who are of Hebrew origin. And it is also marked which group is new and is not identified as originally Hebrew. They only became Israelites through mixing. But the gypsies, like other groups, have been analyzed as originally Hebrew. There are many factors involved, including genetic inheritance, which is where the Romani place is marked in black, which means that the Romani, as described in 3.2 Table 1, have very high numbers of G. J1, J2, R1a, T E1b1b (Y-DNA). This has been confirmed in all Romani studies, which shows that they have very high Middle Eastern/Caucasian ancestry. Only the calculations were all wrong that they took on this haplogroup from India to Europe and stayed in the Middle East/Caucasus for a very long time. But this document refutes this because the Romani already carried the Hebrew, Israeli Jewish from the beginning and then migrated east. They received the female M5a1. But what is also not certain is whether this was in South Asia, Central Asia or West Asia, as the new genetic study from Barcelona confirms, because it is not known where this M5a1 originated 1800 years ago. This study from Barcelona also analyzed that the gypsies inherited their U3 before the M5a1. U3 was inherited approximately 2,100 years ago and M5a1 was acquired approximately 1,500 years ago. Scientists have repeatedly said that the Romani have a complex genetic history and called for further studies to be carried out. That they were a mixed group from the beginning. This has now been proven in this document that I have sent you, through precise genetic analysis as well as other aspects analyzed by various professors. They not only analyzed Romani genetic and other factors, but also all the other peoples that are listed and who was assigned (Extant) and (Defunct). You have to read the document carefully and pay attention to the footnotes. And all of these haplogroups that were mentioned in this document are all Defined All Haplogroup Clades from Y-DNA G, J1,J2, R1a, E3b, T are represented in Hebrew, Israelite, Judean, Jewish and Closest Exogamous Groups. Of Hebrew origin. which has been analyzed and researched for many years in various studies on Jewish, Israelite DNA. The geographical origin and distribution of Y-DNA has also been researched by these various research scholars. These haplogroups are Hebrew, Israelite Jewish haplogroups. And it was also precisely in these documents that a distinction was made between who carried these haplogroups from the beginning and who received the haplogroups through mixed marriages. And with Romani it is indicated that we carried these haplogroups from the beginning. Take a close look at who has the right to return to Israel, it is all in this document. And these people who have researched and analyzed all of this are not just normal students but professors with multiple titles and disciplines. And it was confirmed not only that Romani are Israelites but also have the lineage of Jewish priests. 2A02:3030:A61:3691:D9CD:3CE3:B5A4:A69F (talk) 15:15, 20 April 2024 (UTC)


 * And it's not just one institution that's researching everything, but several scientists, which is also stated right at the top of the document who was involved. I'm looking at it, here, and at the top the only name listed is "Jonah Lissner" so you really should be careful about telling other people they're talking utter nonsense. As for the rest, the fact that Lissner wrote stuff, but that you're repeating that stuff at length here, doesn't make it more reliable. Has any of this been peer reviewed? Are his data sound? His methodologies? His analysis? As I illustrated for you, people can write misleading or false information or reach invalid conclusions clearly, so it does no good to keep telling me how clearly things are stated in the paper.
 * On top of all of this, as I pointed out to you, the paper is full of "may" and "it is proposed" and "hypothetically"for heaven's sake, even "it is proposed these hypothetically originated ...". The author doesn't see himself as confirming anything. Hypotheses aren't conclusions. Largoplazo (talk) 15:58, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The paper concerned isn't even published. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:22, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
 * What do you mean? It's official on the internet. It's just new and not yet widespread. 2A02:8108:50C0:3A54:757A:55D8:55D6:C816 (talk) 16:31, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
 * As far as I can tell, it's just been posted online by the author. It's not published in a scholarly journal. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:52, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
 * what kind of statement is that from you? this professor is an expert and he has examined and evaluated all the studies on the different peoples. This evaluation is in these documents. I really don't know whether they are doing it on purpose, because what they are doing and insinuating is discriminatory and racist. The professor is not telling you a made-up story. Instead, he is describing facts with evidence. Which were evaluated by him and other institutions.
 * Jonah Lissner 1,2,3,4
 * 1.Alumnus. Fonkzon aboratory. Center for Mathematical Sciences.
 * 2.Technion Invited Scientist. Georgian Mathematical Union
 * Researcher.
 * 3. Mugur-Schachter Ouantum Mechanics and Information Structures Laboratory
 * 4.Director, Center for Computer Science, Mathematics, and Engineering Physics COSMER].
 * and all the disciplines required for such analysis and reports were involved in this fact. And it is not without reason that all of the names that Jonah Lissner has given are here. these institutions have done this work otherwise it would not be there. And then Jonah Lissner summarized this document and published the study. Like every other study does.
 * He is an expert, Professor Lissner is Founder and Director, Center for Computer Science, Mathematics, and Engineering Physics, Invited Scientist, National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, Computational Intelligence Lab University of Manitoba, Georgian Mathematical Union, Foukzon Group Technion Israel. He has earned 15 Editorial Boards, 45 Academic Conference, Book Chapter, Journal Papers or Resource Citations, 64 Journals Reviewer, 115 research works Single-Author, 105 Committees Technical or Science Advisory.
 * Skills and Expertise
 * String Field Theory
 * Evolutionary Algorithms
 * Quantum Optics and Quantum Information
 * Computational Astrophysics
 * Algebraic Combinatorics
 * Software Engineering
 * Applied Geophysics
 * Computational Thermodynamics
 * Electrical Power Engineering
 * Computational Intelligence 2A02:8108:50C0:3A54:757A:55D8:55D6:C816 (talk) 16:30, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Have you seriously not noticed that none of these has anything to do with genetics or linguistics? Perhaps you could point me to those portions of the paper that draw from his expertise in string theory or quantum optics or thermodynamics. It means nothing to say he's an "expert" unless he's an expert in the field(s) relevant to his writing. Largoplazo (talk) 16:53, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
 * all gypsy studies always claim, or "can", "could", "they assume" or "probably". And the professor also mentions the evaluation and confirmation. And in gypsy studies nothing is ever said with 100% certainty, only "it looks like it", "probably", "could" and so on. They mention again and again that they need more volunteer gypsies from the west because they want to conduct further studies to verify the western European ancestry because it has not yet been fully verified. The scientists would like to analyse the western northern gypsies and the Balkan gypsies in the same way. But there are too few samples from the western northern gypsies. Only a few, but not from all groups and countries. The reason is because the western northern gypsies are different from the Balkan gypsies and show considerable distance with a different genetic inheritance. Because the western northern gypsies have M5a1 from 0-12% and 56% U3 and the male J2 more than the H-M82 in the Balkan gypsies. 2A02:8108:50C0:3A54:757A:55D8:55D6:C816 (talk) 16:44, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
 * all gypsy studies always claim, or "can", "could", "they assume" or "probably".: If that's true, then it follows that all gypsy studies aren't "confirming" anything. You don't seem to know what "confirm" means. Suggesting is not confirming. Getting an impression isn't confirming. Formulating a hypothesis isn't confirming. Assuming isn't confirming. Saying something is probable isn't confirming. Largoplazo (talk) 16:55, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Just read through all the existing studies on Gypsies and you will see that these expressions are there: "probably," "could speculate," "assumption," and so on. And this professor is not saying anything hypothetical about the groups, but about the dispersion of the Israelites, when it might have occurred. He is not talking about the different peoples who are of Hebrew descent, but about the history of the Jews and Israelites, which of course means the House of Judah and the House of Israel. I don't know if you know this, but for years, different scientists have been trying to trace the Israelites. That's why these different scientists are doing these different studies that have to do with genetics, Jewish history, the Torah, the Talmud and the Tanakh. The greatest scientists in Israel and around the world are involved in this. The open database and the studies have made it possible to verify these groups, which took a very long time, and more studies are still being done. The Gypsies, the most hated and persecuted group in the world, are not listed here for no reason. There are 420 studies on our subject, all of which are accessible. And researchers know perfectly well that our traditions, customs and laws are not compatible with those of old or new India. But all these traditions and laws are found in the Torah. There are hundreds of books and studies about it. Not all of it is unknown; researchers and various institutions know about it. And everyone knows that we have more Middle Eastern/Caucasian genetics than Indian. And everyone knows that they call us Indo-Aryans, Indo-Iranians, Indo-Europeans, and the Indo-Aryans, Indo-Iranians, Indo-Europeans came from different groups that were originally genetically West Eurasian. It is even said that the Indo-Aryans, Indo-Iranians, along with the Indo-Europeans, were the first in West Asia, the Middle East and the Caucasus, for example, the Mitanni Empire. There are many different studies about whether they were the first in India or West Asia. Old Sanskrit was very widespread in West Asia and the Middle East by the Indo-Irish, Aryan and Indo-European peoples. Alongside these Indo-peoples, the Israelites also lived there. That is why Israelite haplogroups are also found in South Asia. The professor took all this into account, just as some genetic studies indicate that we Jews are genetically very close to each other and that our DNA can easily be confused with Jewish DNA. Like, for example, as I mentioned, the 30% of Jewish priestly ancestry. This was mentioned in a 2005 study. Another confirmed that we are in a genetic cluster with Iranian Jews. It is also publicly known that almost all Gypsies have Jewish DNA in varying percentages in a simple DNA test. There are thousands of samples from Gypsies. As well as thousands of private samples from Gypsies who have done a DNA test themselves, and all of these private samples are used for scientific purposes, as it says in the privacy policy. Like Myheritage, for example, which was founded by Israel. And you still get the impression that not everything has been analyzed in the background and studied by scientists. And you name Gypsies, this ignored group, was just written in this document by chance to make a hypothesis. You can't be serious. I know that the document doesn't reveal everything, but it has certain symbols and markings so that you have to read carefully what it means. Because if you just read it quickly, you won't understand much from this document. I'm not surprised either, because this research has listed so many peoples and groups that if you had to describe each group in detail and reveal the genetic connection, you could write a book about the study. It would have to be a book. So the document is kept short with the most important results. Another thing to note about this document is that the Gypsies were also assigned the letters JM. What does JM = Jewish Mitzrachi or most similar. And everything that is said in this document about the Mitzrachi applies to every group listed below that has been given the letter JM. And the Gypsies have this JM task, so you will find a lot more information about the JM Mitzrachi in this document. 2A02:8108:50C0:3A54:757A:55D8:55D6:C816 (talk) 18:14, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Please read WP:NOTSOAPBOX. Five hundred words to say "Lots of people have been studying this hypothesis" doesn't any further establish that the paper you cited, on it's own without your WP:SYNTHESIS of other papers, has any authority whatsoever. And taking the stance that "when they use lots of waffle words, I understand them to mean 'definite' and 'confirmed'" isn't going to convince me that they're as bad at expressing themselves as you're implying they are.
 * If what you really intended was to say, "I believe enough research has been done to indicate that the scholarly community largely agrees on a Jewish-Romani connection. Here are my sources. What do you think?" and left it to others to discuss, it would have been more constructive. But to drop one paper by a non-expert in the field here with that non-expert's analysis and with no context, with zero editorial review, and with you falsely claiming that it's supported by a list of names on top when there is no list of names on top, and then to act indignant that someone else doesn't have that context and to fight to the death insisting on why you think it's meaningful based on materials you've read without anyone else having a chance to look at them wasn't very productive, in my opinion, for the reasons I've already given. Largoplazo (talk) 18:34, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

No Citation For English and Welsh Romani People Being Preferred to be Called "Gypsies"
When reading the article, I noticed that one of the lines says "However, this is not always the case; for example, the term is actually preferred by most English and Welsh Romanies, and is used to refer to them in government documentation." It then shows 3 citations however none of them prove that the English and Welsh Romanies prefer being called that. I never used Wikipedia before so I have no idea how to but I think that it should get deleted as it is making an anecdotal statement with no proof. Bluntilda (talk) 08:54, 13 May 2024 (UTC)


 * I haven't checked yet, but if the claim is unsupported by its citations, you are free (and in this cause I will say encouraged) to remove it, with the policy being that it shouldn't be readded unless an inline citation to a reliable source is provided. Remsense  诉  08:59, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

they should add this statement to the study on Wikipedia
(25) Within the H-M82 haplogroup, an identical 8-microsatellite Y chromo-some haplotype is shared by nearly 30% of Gypsy men, an astonishing degree of preservation of a highly differentiated lineage, previously described only in Jewish priests. https://med.stanford.edu PDF A newly discovered founder population: the Roma/Gypsies - Stanford Medicine 95.90.255.134 (talk) 22:45, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Poor citation on unanimous agreement at the 1st Romani Congress
The citation used is a student paper which has an unsourced quote from Ian Hancock - a real professor of Romani studies, but the quote is not available when searching for it otherwise. If anyone has access to this journal https://catalogue.georgepadmoreinstitute.org/records/JOU/1/1/26 it should have a transcript of the actual meeting. 2A01:4B00:8293:4400:7D1C:A7EC:7D0E:1905 (talk) 11:45, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Incorrect Detail
Article is completely wrong and full of propaganda. 86.98.59.241 (talk) 21:46, 15 July 2024 (UTC)


 * I doubt it's completely wrong. The assertion is not useful without specifics.  signed, Willondon (talk)  22:28, 15 July 2024 (UTC)