Talk:Ronald Ryan

Archiving
Archived the whole Talk page, since all recent threads were dominated by behaviour of a long-term abusive editor. From here on in I will simply revert this editor on sight without further comment on the Talk page. --GenericBob (talk) 00:00, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Errors
What about "Savation" Army? It is named "Salvation Army" and I put a link to it. No need for you to change my savings or undo my changes, Afterwriting. (User 217.151.147.210) 16:45, 13 December 2011 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.151.147.210 (talk)


 * Your first edit changed the article text from "the Savation Army" to "the the Salvation Army", so you fixed one error but introduced another. Possibly Afterwriting noticed the new error but not the removal of the old one; it might've been a good idea to put something like "fixing spelling error" in the edit summary instead of leaving it blank, to make the purpose of the edit clearer. Thanks for fixing the error, anyway :-) --GenericBob (talk) 20:37, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Appearance and personality
In both form and content this section seems a little odd. It sounds like it might be a little slangy, and if that's taken from quotes it could be explained what the slang means. And the punctuation might be off. PurpleChez (talk) 01:10, 3 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I googled and it looks to be copyvio from the Australian Dictionary of Biography, so that passage should probably be removed - thanks for that. --GenericBob (talk) 08:17, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Too many sections
Sorry but whatever the controversies surrounding this article, at least it could be written in a neat and concise manner. For instance my many gripe is their are too many sections. Where do they end?? 19 years laters, 25 years later, last week, yesterday? They are pointless and do little for the structure of the page. Things should be kept neat and simple, more is less. Pre crime, crime, trial, death, legacy. There is no need for sections that are all part of the same period/time frame. If a section is needed then make it a sub-par. All in all, this article is a classic and unfortunate example of when there are too many Chiefs and not enough Indians!86.145.4.172 (talk) 11:35, 3 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Agreed entirely. If you've got the time to rework it, I for one would welcome structural improvements.
 * FWIW, the problem is not so much "too many chiefs" as "one too many obsessives" - a single editor has been attacking this page fairly persistently for the last four or five years, and she tends to create a new section every time she finds another interview with somebody whose uncle's cousin's godfather's mate at the pub believes Ryan was innocent. --GenericBob (talk) 12:15, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Source for cites
FWIW, if anybody feels like spending the time to find page numbers, Mike Richards' book "The Hanged Man" can provide cites for most if not all of the bits that have been marked as needing them - it's a pretty thorough account of Ryan's life and death. It might also be useful in balancing out the excessively-long "case for innocence" section with an explanation of why Ryan was convicted, and a couple of previous violent offenses that have been attributed to him.

I was hoping to sit down with a copy from the library and work through the article some time, but RL has been keeping me busy of late. --GenericBob (talk) 22:30, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Aborted breakout
There is enough independent sources to say that on the eve of Ryan's execution, a gang of criminals were planning to blast their way into Pentridge in an eleventh hour rescue bid. Ryan's one time criminal apprentice Edward "Jockey" Smith was to be part of this gang. The mission was first mention in "The Herald" the day after the execution, Grindlay wrote of it in his memoir, and Father Brosnan spoke openly about it in the film The Hanged man. I've never included it on Ryan's page because I believe Escapeeyes would have removed it. It was Ryan who called the rescue attempt off, sending Brosnan out with a message, it was also when Ryan confessed to Grindlay his guilt. Purrum (talk) 12:03, 4 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, would definitely be worth adding (Richards also covers it, drawing on the same sources). If anything, it shows a better side of Ryan; he seems to have had a serious shot at escape, but this time around he wasn't prepared to risk other people's lives. --GenericBob (talk) 14:42, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Amazing really, that purrum seems to know every thing concerning Ryan. 123.2.143.18 (talk) 01:50, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Lange's suicide
I removed some uncited material that appears to imply that Lange committed suicide out of qualms about Ryan's execution. This could certainly be re-added if a suitable cite can be found to support it, but not otherwise. (Under the version of events accepted by the jury, Lange's rifle was used to kill his colleague, which would suggest another possible motivation for his suicide - I think Richards' book leans to this interpretation, but I don't have it handy.)

Likewise, Lange's suicide should not be included under "Evidence for innocence" without solid cites for that interpretation, so I've moved it to its own section. --GenericBob (talk) 11:33, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * One cite on Lange easily found. WendEnd (talk) 09:10, 9 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Why was the above newpaper cite deleted by user Purrum????? I have reverted the deletion. (121.210.139.15 (talk) 08:06, 30 August 2015 (UTC))


 * Again, the above article and citations have been deleted by user Purrum. 121.210.139.15 (talk) 23:58, 6 November 2015 (UTC)


 * In one of the two suicide notes Lange left (one addressed to Chief Prison Officer Les Coleman, the other to his wife, available from the Public Records Office of Victoria as Body Card ref. no: 1969/1052), Lange requests to be cremated at Springvale, and states "By writing the word Springvale, I can't help thinking about George. All the time I kept asking myself if I couldn't have saved his life by jumping for the gun. Let's hope I find out where I'm going". However, the note to his wife makes it clear that her leaving him was the reason; the first line is "Do you believe me now?". Her statement details that he the last time they spoke (April tenth, two days before his death), Lange said he would kill himself rather than have her leave him, and when she bade him "Wiedersehen" ("until we see each other again") his response was "There will be no seeing again". Chris Keating (talk) 01:25, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Rifle or revolver
On the day he died, Lange was rostered to J Division for a 4.45 to midnight shift. He was locked in by outgoing shift staff as was procedure. He had his service issued .38 revolver with him. Philip Opas wrongly states that Lange died in a watchtower and used a M1 carbine. Where Lange died is not important to the overall scheme of the Ronald Ryan story but to does point out that Opas' recollections are not necessarily accurate. Purrum (talk) 04:15, 31 August 2015 (UTC)


 * According to Lange's death certificate, prison records, police reports, warders' union reports, various newspaper reports, prison officers' reports and the Coroner's report, Helmut Lange died from a self-inflected would to his head whilst on duty in a prison watchtower. He had shot himself with a prison-authorised M1 carbine rifle. There were no such pistols, guns or other kinds of firearms issued to prison guards, apart from M1 carbine rifles. This information is based on facts, not by Opas. The fact remains that Lange shot himself in the head, whatever the firearm used is actually irrelevant.


 * Purrum has a long history of discrediting Opas and continues to blame Opas for defending Ronald Ryan over the police/prosecution's total lack of scientific ballistic forensic evidence. There was NO scientific evidence to prove Ryan's guilt and it is the job of a lawyer to defend his client from execution where there is no scientific evidence of proof that Ryan's rifle fired a shot at all. The Trial transcript shows this to be fact, not opinion. User Purrum persistently deletes citations stating this fact. (121.210.139.15 (talk) 07:16, 31 August 2015 (UTC))


 * The front page of The Age published two days after Helmut Lange's death clearly stated that he was in J Division and the cause of death was a self inflicted gunshot wound to the head by a .38 revolver. I would state that an article published at the time is more accurate than an old man' recollection thirty years later.Purrum (talk) 10:22, 31 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Lange's suicide was reported by several newspapers, including The Sun. The 'old man' (Dr Philip Opas) you describe was a well-known excellent lawyer barrister and Queens Counsel, respected by everyone in the Law fraternity for his intellect and professional work. He knew the Ryan case better than anyone else. Since his passing (not from dementia) several years ago you have persistently attacked his personal and professional life, including his professional comments on the Ryan case - that there was NO scientific ballistic forensic evidence to prove Ryan guilty. You cannot accept the 'facts', so now that Opas has deceased you discredit and mock him at every opportunity, knowing that he no longer can defend your persistent false insulting allegations against him. And, no person cares really if you wish to believe The Age news articles over all other newspaper articles including The Sun. This does not give you, Purrum, the right to persistently delete other people's contributions with citations, concerning the 'facts' of the Ryan case on your assumption that you do not believe it! Who do you think you are? (121.210.139.15 (talk) 17:55, 31 August 2015 (UTC))
 * The Sun also reported that he died as a result from a gunshot fired by his revolver.Purrum (talk) 01:58, 1 September 2015 (UTC)


 * The police reports state that Lange shot himself in the J Division muster room (also referred to as the recreation room), with his prison-issued .38 calibre revolver. That location and weapon are listed on witness reports submitted by the other prison officers present, and by attending police. The documents are available from the Public Records Office of Victoria, as Body Card ref. no: 1969/1052. Chris Keating (talk) 05:22, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Using pounds instead of dollars
Why is everything quoted in pounds, instead of dollars when the pound was replaced by the dollar on 14th Febuary 1966, almost 11 months before Ryan's crime? Can these be replaced with the actual denomination he stole (dollars, not pounds). 203.51.161.90 (talk) 10:20, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Ryan was in jail from January 1966 until his death. Decimal currency came in during this time. All of his crimes were committed before decimalization. Purrum (talk) 02:34, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Original research re. trial
I've removed the statement that "The Crown had no scientific, no ballistic and no forensic evidence to prove Ryan had fired a shot at all" from the article.

The two cites given are (1) the full two-week trial transcript and (2) an article by Phil Opas (Ryan's defender) in Vic Bar News. I think citing a two-week trial transcript to this effect is interpretation/analysis that falls under WP:OR.

The Opas article argues ballistic evidence for Ryan's innocence, but it says nothing about "no scientific or forensic" evidence - the words "scientific" and "forensic" don't appear in the article. Citing it to support that assertion is again OR. Also, the arguments it gives are the same ones Opas made at trial, and they're already thoroughly covered in the "Defence's case" section of this article - we don't need to cite the same info from the same source twice, and it certainly doesn't belong in the "Crown's case" section. GenericBob (talk) 11:48, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Ronald Ryan's Body Exhumed
Forty years after Ronald Ryan was buried in an unmarked grave within Pentridge Prison, George Hodson's daughter danced and jumped on Ryan's grave to the horror of officials and on-lookers. The State Premier John Brumby granted permission to the Ryan family members to have Ryan's body exhumed so that he could be cremated and placed beside his decased wife in Portland Cemetery. This fact has been well documented in various newspaper articles and media. However, user Purrum is embarrassed and ashamed of the truth and persistently deletes the facts that he does not like. 121.210.139.15 (talk) 23:58, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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