Talk:Rook and bishop versus rook endgame

Philidor Position
The position after the 2nd black move is the same as the initial position. So I don't understand the comments on move 2 and the exclam marks on white's move 1 and 2. Why white don't play 1. Rh7 ? En passant (talk) 21:35, 15 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Apparantly the position came from one source and the moves from another, so they don't match. I'll lfix it.  Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 22:34, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

The line in the comments after 2. ... Re2 doesn't match the position. It gives the line: 2. ... Re3 3. Rb7 Kc8 4. Rc7+ Kb8 5. Rb8+ Ka8 6. Rd7+ "winning the rook" but the rook is on e3!

Overall it is rather hard to follow the winning line and the ideas behind it. Mdz (talk) 17:19, 1 January 2013 (UTC)


 * OK, there was a problem earlier with not matching and this must have been left over. I revised it according to one of the references.  Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 18:38, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

What is the difference between the Philidor position and the Lolli position?
The section on the Philidor position says that the "method works if the kings are on the central four ranks or files". The section on the Lolli position, though claiming it to be distinct, has the kings on a bishop's file, which seems to just be a special case of the Philidor position's earlier definition. Double sharp (talk) 09:55, 1 April 2016 (UTC)


 * It isn't quite clear to me either. Philidor is on files c through f and there are two Lolli positions, on the b and c files. Maybe they are slightly different on the c file or maybe they are basically the same.  I put this in there, but I was just going by what the references say.  Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 17:57, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Original Philidor Position (1749) has Black King on e8
This wiki page describes the "Philidor Position" with R+B vs R as:


 * White: Kd6, Bd5, Rf1


 * Black: Kd8, Re7

Many modern day references also use this as the starting position (Dvoretsky's Engame Manual 4th edition, 2014; Basic Chess Endings, Reuben Fine, 1973).

However, the original position in Philidor's book from 1749, "l'analyze des echecs" was actually:


 * White: Ke6, Be5, Rook on c file


 * Black: Ke8, Rd7

You can read the original text (1749, in French) at https://books.google.com/ while searching for "l'analyze des echecs". The first edition first printing has R+B vs R starting at page 162 "Le Mat du Fou et de la Tour, contre une Tour."

You can read the translated text (1750, in English) at https://books.google.com/ while searching for "Chess Analyzed". This version has R+B vs R starting at page 140. This book describes it thusly:


 * Situation.

White. The King at the black King's third Square,
 * the Rook upon the Queen's Bishop's
 * Line, and the Bishop at the black King's
 * fourth Square.

Black. The King at his home, and the Rook at its
 * Queen's second Square.

Although both positions are technically the "Philidor Position", this wiki page should at least mention the EXACT position from the book that Philidor penned in 1749. Obviously there would (should?) need to be extensive reworking of the analysis section to accurately reflect the original work of Philidor.

The 1777 (French and English updated versions) also have the Black King on e8.

TommyWP (talk) 23:15, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Zytogorski
Are Adolf Zytogorski's contributions to this notable, either for the History or Winning positions sections? &#8209;&#8209; Yodin T 18:24, 3 February 2022 (UTC)