Talk:Roy Farran

Murderer
It is important to note that he was a murderer. Why did you not state it more clearly? Happy138 21:02, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Seems this claim seems to have ruffled a few feathers. He was never convicted of murder - he was charged and he was never found guilty in court at the trial. I am a little uncertain of the claim of him being known as notorious in Isreal as an alledged killer. Is this correct? Steve-Ho 23:16, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It is very known. When he died - it was published in all the newspapers, and even made the front page on some newspapers. Happy138 08:04, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

This is a biased account addressing a single allegation about the subject
This entry relies on a single newspaper report and hearsay, and addresses one alleged event in the colourful life of the individual.

A press report today in the London Daily Telegraph provides a more complete picture of the individual, although it does not name all of its sources.

See: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/5067755/British-war-hero-to-be-investigated-again-for-murder-of-Jewish-terrorist.html

I recommend that this entry is removed until a properly sourced and complete biography is provided. Jpmt (talk) 17:56, 29 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, it is not good. In particular Steven Rambam does not belong here without some evidence that he contributed anything.  All of the evidence attributed to Rambam here was uncovered by David Cesarani and appeared in his book "Major Farran's Hat" published a month or two earlier.  Zerotalk 12:47, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

misplaced modifier
The sentence "In Israel he is notoriously remembered for the alleged kidnapping and murder of 16 year old Alexander Rubowitz" literally means that those Israelis remembering Farran's acts are doing it in a notorious way. That the decent thing would be for them to forget. You can say (grammatically, I don't speak to NPOV) that "in Israel he is notorious for the alleged kidnapping and murder of 16 year old Alexander Rubowitz." --G-Dett (talk) 03:57, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree your wording is a bit better. Happy138 (talk) 05:25, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi there. I've removed 'notorious' from the lead of the article; that's an extremely contentious word at best and requires an extremely good reliable source to back it up. Until there is one, which supports what seems to be an opinion, it would be best that it remain excluded. Skinny87 (talk) 07:59, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * We did provide a source. I will change it to the suggested quote above. Happy138 (talk) 12:59, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I have again removed it. The cited source does not back up the phrase 'notorious' at all, which is either POV or OR depending on your viewpoint. Skinny87 (talk) 14:20, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Alexander Rubowitz section
I'd like to have this section re-named to something slightly less lurid. Of course it will dominate the section, but I'm also sure that Farran did more than get involved in the alleged murder, especially if he was involved with the rather shady 'Q section'. I certainly don't want to edit-war, but I'd like to suggest something like 'Post-war service' to be a level three section header (to be part of his military service section) and several level four headers: one to be 'Alexander Rubowitz' to keep within BLP rules, and then either before or after that 'Q section activities' or some variety on that with whatever information can be gained from reliable sources about what he did with Q. How does that sound? Skinny87 (talk) 22:23, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it can be reduced to a level 4 header, but right now there's nothing else about what he did in present day Israel. Are you going to add to that? Happy138 (talk) 22:29, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep, at least what I can find - a brief look at what I've got around here shows his Israel stuff is kinda light on the ground. Not surprising really, given that Q section stuff was by its very nature extremely secretive. Still, at the very least I'll be able to find some context to what he was doing in Israel - how and maybe why he joined the Q teams - and make the article slightly more complete. I'll focus on his military career first, however, as that's my main area of expertise - we also need to find out more about his activities in Canadian politics. Skinny87 (talk) 22:45, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Happy138 (talk) 22:59, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey, no problem. I've been meaning to work on Farran for a while, although I imagine this will be more a period of weeks rather than days until it's all done. Still, I've made a start and got upto his SAS service - I can use more than the obituaries from now on. Skinny87 (talk) 23:17, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Pah, as usual the bloody obituaries don't match their details up, and his SAS career from mid-1943 to Tombola is difficult to put together in a coherent timeline. Michael Asher's book will help, but he introduces Farran rather abruptly. I'll be doing my bets, but it might take a while; I'll track down my copy of Farran's book to see if I can iron the exact details out. Skinny87 (talk) 10:25, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Can you get a hold of the book : David Cesarani, Major Farran's Hat: Counter-Terrorism, Murder, and Cover-Up in Palestine, 1945-1948 Publisher: William Heinemann, 200. Might be very helpful on this matter. Happy138 (talk) 11:45, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Place of birth
Why is there uncertainty about his POB? Happy138 (talk) 10:27, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Usual genius inaccuracy with the obituaries. One says India, another says Surrey. The only way to settle this will be to use his own book, if he mentions it: I'll dig it out when I find it. Skinny87 (talk) 10:28, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. By the way, the Hebrew wiki article is excellent. How's your Hebrew? Happy138 (talk) 10:40, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * About as good as my Russian :) I'll run it through google translator and have a look-see what their sources are. I think we've got a good crop of online and offline sources, but I'll take a look now. Skinny87 (talk) 11:03, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, as I thought. Completely uncited - how it made it to Featured Article status I don't know. Standards are lower on smaller wikis, which is a shame. Nothing to use there, but no problem - Asher seems to have a lot on Farran's wartime career, and I think I know where I might fund some stuff on Farran's time in Israel. Skinny87 (talk) 11:06, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually there are many sources in Hebrew, since he is notorious in Israel. See this article in Haaretz as an example. (It is cited in the Hebrew wiki article). Happy138 (talk) 11:11, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, thanks for that. I'd rather use english-language sources for the article, this being en-wikipedia, but when it comes to his service in Israel I'll definitely see what the Hebrew-language articles have to say. Can you speak Hebrew fluently, by any chance, in order to translate articles? Skinny87 (talk) 11:14, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I do. Happy138 (talk) 11:27, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

(od)Well, this is going better than I thought it would! Once I get to Farran's post-war service in Israel, I'll ask you to round up some reliably sourced articles and translate them, if you would. I don't think there'll be a need to use Hebrew-language articles before then - his war service will be covered in the obituaries and books more than enough. I don't like to pry, but given that this article will probably come under the Israel-Palestine ARBCOM restrictions and might get edit-warred over the murder allegations when it becomes larger and more well-known, it's probably best to get this out now. Do you have any WP:COI over this issue, as I see from the history you've edited it quite a bit before. For myself, I've volunteered for the museum of the Queens Own Hussars, the British Army regiment that the 3rd Hussars was amalgamated into post-war, and I volunteer for its sister regiment at the moment. Farran certainly didn't come up as a subject at all, so I can't imagine that's a COI, but it's probably best to speak up. Skinny87 (talk) 11:33, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I am Jewish and so was poor Alexander Rubowitz but I don't see any COI in that. Do you? Happy138 (talk) 11:39, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Can't say that I do, any more than Farran and myself being British. Glad to settle that little formality. I've found some excellent books for Farran's post-war service (both Palestine and Greece) in Google Books. Skinny87 (talk) 11:42, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * See the book I just recommended above. Happy138 (talk) 11:47, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed, I'll try and find a copy of it, although I am slightly concerned that it's labelled an 'historical thriller', although the author seems to have unimpeachable credentials. Skinny87 (talk) 11:49, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Farran shooting Germans who were surrendering
The POV was Farran's own and the reference was his own account in Winged Dagger. Anyway here is a link 'As they got out of Galatas an incident occurred of which Farran was not proud, but neither did he feel too much remorse. His tank was approached by some German parachutists with their hands in the air. "I ordered the gunner to fire. Three dropped dead, but two others managed to limp away into the trees.  I do not think that I would make a practice of shooting prisoners, but Crete was different, and in the heat of the moment I had not time to think". ' Obviously the reason he couldn't take them prisoner was he was in a tank Overagainst (talk) 17:34, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Lede - what was Farran known for
I think few people had heard of Farran before he was tried for a murder. (Of which there is little doubt he was guilty) Overagainst (talk) 18:15, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Sergeant Kelly ?
I heard a story from someone who may have known Roy Farran that a sidekick of his called Sergeant Kelly disappeared from a hotel. Overagainst (talk) 18:16, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

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