Talk:Sailor Moon/Archive 1

Various old conversations
The Japanese characters (I assume that's what they are) aren't displaying in the first line. -- Zoe


 * Likely possibilities: 1) You don't have Japanese fonts installed. 2) Your browser isn't configured to display Japanese characters in a Japanese font. 3) Your browser is old/limited/text-mode and doesn't recognize them anyway. Since the Japanese title is just supplementary information (it's additionally transliterated into roman characters immediately thereafter), this shouldn't hurt you much, though. --Brion VIBBER

My browser is IE 6.0.2600, so it's pretty new. No, I don't have Japanese fonts installed, and most users of wikipedi will not, either. Should we require users to download special fonts? -- Zoe
 * This seems odd -- characters look fine to me. I'm at work right now using IE 6.0 that was installed with all the defaults. Konqueror 2.2.2 at home displays them as question marks, but mozilla 0.9.6 is able to display just over half of these type of characters (not sure if is displays these particular characters). --maveric149


 * The general consensus is that for things like that (the original-language form of a name mentioned in passing), the audience that will find it useful (ie, can read Japanese) will mostly already have the necessary fonts installed. Most people without Japanese fonts can't read Japanese, and would skip over the funny squiggles anyway. So there are four possible ways to deal with this:


 * Don't include the original form of the name, therefore making Wikipedia less informative and useful. Having the romanization helps, but romanizations are often not unique, especially with scripts like Japanese and Chinese.


 * Include the name as an inline image. Awkward to do and revise (anti-wiki), looks bad printed (low resolution), doesn't scale to larger font sizes, and you can't cut-and-paste the name into a search engine or word processor.
 * Include the name as characters; relatively easy to revise, can be cut-and-pasted, prints/scales as well as the fonts on your computer. Users who don't have fonts installed for the language in question will generally see question marks or boxes; for those who are actually interested in the information but don't have fonts, getting them is usually a straightforward issue. Windows users can simply visit http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com/ and download the Japanese font pack, for instance.
 * Include both an image and the characters -- now you've got four forms of the name in a row, two of which are identical; this is getting pretty awkward, and the audience that will get use out of the image but not the characters is limited.
 * This has already been discussed in Unicode and elsewhere. --Brion VIBBER

In an earlier version of this article, the main group of antagonist characters in Sailor Stars was referred to as "Anima-Maids". An anonymous visitor corrected that, saying the following: '"Anima Maids" is wrong; &#12450;&#12491;&#12510;&#12513;&#12452;&#12484; is the official spelling of the name in Japanese, and that cannot be "Anima Maids."' Denelson83 09:09, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)
 * The anonymous user is correct. "maid" in katakana is &#12513;&#12540;&#12489; (meedo) or &#12513;&#12452;&#12489; (meido); "maids" would probably be something like &#12513;&#12452;&#12489;&#12474; (meidozu) although I haven't seen that anywhere. &#12513;&#12452;&#12484; is "meitsu" and is pronounced basically like "mates", so their alternative is reasonable. DopefishJustin 06:35, May 10, 2004 (UTC)

Is there a reason why Outer Senshi names have the weird accent on the "ô"? No one is going to search for "Haruka Ten'ô", but they might search for "Haruka Ten'ou". Should we correct this? (26 Feb 2004)

Translation of "bishoujo senshi": 12.16.156.230 says the literal translation is "pretty girl soldier". However, my Japanese dictionary lists "bi" as "beauty", and "senshi" as "warrior". So, which is it?


 * I can answer this question for you.
 * &#32654; ("bi") = Beauty
 * &#23569; ("sh&#333;") = Youth
 * &#22899; ("j&#333;") = The female gender
 * &#25126; ("sen") = War
 * &#22763; ("shi") = Soldier


 * Denelson83 06:32, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

"Warrior" and "soldier" aren't different enough that you can really say one word translates to one and not the other.Ken Arromdee 20:42, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * You neglected also to look at the words as a whole. Shojo is one word, a much a tablecloth is. Senshi is also one word, and you should also look at the more general meaning of it. The series defines it differently for both properties. Original: Pretty Sailor Soldier Sailormoon (Female being implied, from a cultural standpoint). New one: Pretty Guardian Sailormoon. Warrior is more like "Bushi" which has the connotations of a warrior that Senshi does not.--Hitsuji Kinno 23:06, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

I'm planning to go through the individual character pages and clean up the Senshi Attacks and Powers list. I noticed (see Hino Rei in particular) that some list the english dub attacks as primary and the original attacks secondary. I think it's best to list the original version attacks first. It makes more sense (since it is the original) and is easier because many times the dub (especially in the S and SuperS seasons) gives multiple names for the same attack.

Speaking of that, does anyone see the need for an entry outlining some of the differences between the various versions of Sailormoon, perhaps in particular listing some of the eccentric incidental names from the english dub, and so on?

Silvermask 17:09, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * Hey, while you're at it, Silvermask, do you think you can try writing the Kaiou Michiru article as well? Denelson83 09:06, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I'd be glad to. That reminds me of something. Is there any particular consensus about how to romanize the family names of the outer senshi around here? I've noticed that we tend towards using the O with circumflex instead of ou. I'll be the first to admit that I know very little about Japanese, but I've most often seen ou used much more often (in fact I can only think of having seen the circumflex O in the context of Sailormoon, but I'm sure that's just a coincidence). Personally I prefer it for aesthetics and simplicity, although I've most often seen them as Kaioh/Tennoh/Meioh which I suppose just means people didn't want to look up ô on the character map. Ok, I'm rambling.

What I was getting around to is: Shouldn't it be under Kaiôh Michiru or shouldn't we also change the others to Ten'nou (or Tennou) Haruka and Meiou Setsuna?


 * You didn't sign that last post, but oh well. You should use the title that I put into the navigation frame at the bottom of the article. Denelson83 20:08, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

There are standards for how to romanize Japanese in Wikipedia at Manual of Style for Japan-related articles so those should be followed here. That article's talk page is the place for any disputes. To summarize what it says: short o in the title (Kaio), long &#333; in the article (Kai&#333;), although &#333; is even harder to type than ô. :P DopefishJustin 06:35, May 10, 2004 (UTC)


 * It also says the apostrophe after n should be avoided in article titles, so "Teno" for the title and "Ten'&#333;" in the text. I'll probably sort these out when I get some time. DopefishJustin 17:03, May 10, 2004 (UTC)


 * I've changed over Kai&#333 and Ten'&#333, but Mei&#333 will need a redirect deleted first, I've listed it on Speedy deletions. I've also done some work on the character list in this article - we really only need the dub name and the standard romanization of the Japanese here, the orgy of alternate names that was there before belongs either on the article pages or nowhere. Some of the names also have justifications in brackets for the spellings used, those really belong here on the talk page and not in the article, but I haven't moved them for now. DopefishJustin 18:55, May 10, 2004 (UTC)


 * I've deleted the redirect, but I get an error when I try to move Meiou Setsuna to Meio Setsuna. It says to get an adminstrator to help with the move. Wikiwikifast 19:12, 10 May 2004 (UTC)


 * Someone else took care of it. Thanks, though. DopefishJustin 20:13, May 10, 2004 (UTC)

Images
''Dispute resolved. Discussion deleted because it is no longer applicable and is useless for future reference.'' Wikiwikifast 02:09, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Justifications for name spellings
These were in the article itself, I moved them here because they don't really belong in the article. DopefishJustin 22:44, May 11, 2004 (UTC)


 * Tuxedo Mask: ["Tuxedo Mask" appears most often in the official Japanese sources, including the manga]
 * Prince Demand: [official Japanese sources say "Demand" in Roman letters]
 * Death Fantom: [the manga shows "DEATH FANTOM"; "fantom" is a variant of "phantom"]
 * Amazones Quartet: ["Quartet" appears several times on the Japanese sources]

TokyoPop manga names replacing Japanese names
I think that the romanizations in the English manga should be used in the article titles for the characters instead of the ones they have right now.

''Big long snip now that the massive holy war is over (amazingly, it never quite broke out into flames). For future reference, the arguments for the TokyoPop names are summarized here:''
 * Wikipedia should use official names wherever possible, and the manga is an official publication.
 * Wikipedia is English and should thus use English names, as in Christopher Columbus (as opposed to Cristoforo Colombo).
 * The Yu-Gi-Oh! articles use the translated manga names, so the Sailor Moon articles should too.
 * The translated manga names are a good compromise between the original names and the dub names.

And against:
 * The article concerns the entire Sailor Moon metaseries. Since the use of the TokyoPop names is limited to the translated manga, while the original names refer to all of the original manga, the original anime, the musicals, and the live-action series, the original names are preferable.
 * The names most commonly used for the characters by speakers of English (according to Google) are the original Japanese names (in Western order). Thus, by various manuals of style, we should use those.
 * As of this typing, this appears to no longer be true: Japanese name order appears to have overtaken Western name order, by nearly an order of magnitude. Although Google's results are known to fluctuate from day to day (or even hour to hour), this is strikingly significant. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 05:27, 2004 Aug 31 (UTC)
 * The TokyoPop names especially are relatively little-known, as there are few readers of the TokyoPop manga (and few of those are unfamiliar with at least the dub names); thus they are the least preferable, not a 'compromise'.
 * Nobody seems to think the dub names should be used anyway.
 * 'Official' names should not be relevant: witness Jimmy Carter versus James Earl Carter, Jr.

''Anyone who wants to open this can of worms again is asked to make sure they understand the arguments presented. --Aponar Kestrel 04:44, 2004 Jul 28 (UTC)''

Continuing conversation
I google hitted other names and they seem consistent with your conclusion (English-order Japanese names are more popular), but I still don't understand why this is the case. WhisperToMe 03:12, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * I can't say for sure, obviously. But, in the face of massive, widespread inconsistency, people will generally seek some standard to fall back on. "Usagi Tsukino" (and "Tsukino Usagi") provided that consistency; anything else (such as "purism" or "precedent") was icing on the cake. "Usagi Tsukino" probably has the advantage of being consistent with most Anglophones' experience concerning proper names, as well. --Aponar Kestrel 04:44, 2004 Jul 28 (UTC)

Reversion process
Ack. I can't move Amy Mizuno to Ami Mizuno, so instead I moved it to Mizuno Ami. I keep getting "Error: could not submit form" when I used the 'move' function. Wikiwikifast 22:27, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Taken care of manually. I hate doing that -- it doesn't preserve the history -- but. (Oh, nuts. I just thought of a better way to do it. Well, lesson learned.) --Aponar Kestrel 04:25, 2004 Jul 31 (UTC)


 * ... said other way doesn't actually work. Well, Raye Hino is ready to be moved to Rei Hino; I'll need to hunt down an admin, but eh, it can wait. --Aponar Kestrel 05:59, 2004 Aug 1 (UTC)

An argument to move back Meio/Kaio/Teno to Meioh/Kaioh/Tenoh
This isn't a call to move back to the TokyoPop names. I just think that Michiru Kaio/Haruka Teno/Setsuna Meio should be moved back to Meioh/Kaioh/Tenoh (With the MOS notated in the article, of course)

The "oh" romanizations are also official in the Japanese version, according to this site: (I am not sure where the info was scanned from)
 * http://ilsevet.tripod.com/neptune.html
 * http://ilsevet.tripod.com/pluto.html
 * http://ilsevet.tripod.com/uranus.html

Google lists the OH romanizations as most common in English...
 * 14,900	"Kaioh Michiru"
 * 755	"Kaiou Michiru"
 * 64	"Kaio Michiru"
 * 1,750	"Michiru Kaioh"
 * 1,100	"Michiru Kaiou"
 * 150	"Michiru Kaio"
 * 14,100	"Meioh Setsuna"
 * 716	"Meiou Setsuna"
 * 87	"Meio Setsuna"
 * 3,900	"Setsuna Meioh"
 * 2,540	"Setsuna Meio"
 * 1,340	"Setsuna Meiou"
 * 1,690 "Haruka Tenoh"
 * 1,830 "Haruka Tenou"
 * 49 "Haruka Teno"
 * 14,100 "Tenou Haruka"
 * 1,270 "Tenoh Haruka"
 * 55 "Teno Haruka"

And as for the "Jimmy Carter" argument - he is a real person and person names tend to be spelled ad hoc or by nicknames. But these girls are fictional.

WhisperToMe 22:28, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Also, the "Jimmy Carter" argument would better reflect a naming dispute over Chibiusa over whether or not to move her to Usagi Tsukino (Younger) or something like that, if there was one. WhisperToMe 02:01, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * ... so for some reason Google has suddenly decided that "Tsukino Usagi" is more popular now than "Usagi Tsukino". And likewise for everyone else. By, likewise, almost an order of magnitude -- which I hadn't expected given that the results were trailing so far behind last time. So -- whatever; it's back to Japanese name order for, ick, everyone -- I'll handle rewriting the articles to match. Again. (And this time, short of either a) more than 100,000 hits on something else or b) Ms. Takeuchi herself writing in and telling us otherwise, we can ****** well leave them there. I'm almost beyond caring.) As for these three -- Meioh, Kaioh, and I guess keep Teno in the title (again, Surname Givenname). Ten'&#333; in the article, of course, and I'll have to fix the name paragraph, which is apparently wrong anyway given the gloss in the manga.
 * Tsukino Google
 * Usagi Google
 * I still can't quite believe that. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 06:21, 2004 Aug 28 (UTC)


 * Also, Whisper? I know you know better. Kindly take the underlines out. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 06:23, 2004 Aug 28 (UTC)


 * No, I didn't "know better" (In the case of the underlines that is), because you are so far the only person to object to this practice, though I'll remove it anyway. Has there been a poll on this in the manual of style? WhisperToMe 17:41, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I think so. I do recall that it came up, and wasn't included in the final version. I believe the eventual consensus was that underlined kanji just didn't look right, and was superfluous anyway. And, no, I'm not the only person to object to you not following the Manual of Style. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 05:16, 2004 Aug 31 (UTC)


 * I was specifically meaning the underlining. :) WhisperToMe 00:56, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Kaioh, Meioh, Tenoh are also backed by Volume 11 of the official japanese source (front page where a rough list of stats are given), they are again backed by volume 10, with Sailor Saturn.--Hitsuji Kinno 22:55, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

Position of SOS link
Looks like we got a small edit war in this article. An anonymous user puts the SOS link at the top, a known user returns it to its old position, and then the same anonymous user puts it right back at the top. Denelson83 02:18, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Fine. Let's justify it then. Here are some sites that explain why people hate SOS:
 * http://www.sailormoon.org/faq/smfaq16.shtml
 * http://www.smuncensored.com/antisos.php?id=10
 * http://www.animenation.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-144516.html?PHPSESSID=88cd2895756a941cba560afea3bd3793
 * --Wikiwikifast 12:22, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Honestly I don't care about SOS one way or another; it's just that Hitoshi Doi's page is almost certainly going to be more useful to the vast majority of readers than the SOS page is. The only reason I can see for Wikipedia to have the SOS link there is if it did, in fact, make history (as its text blurb implies). --Aponar Kestrel 19:18, 2004 Jul 14 (UTC)
 * Actually, it did make history, albeit in a negative way. "Saturday, December 14th, 1996... a day that shall remain in infamy," (from the first link, in reference to the SOS Strawberry Pop Tarts debacle). But yes, Hitoshi Doi's page is the canonical Sailor Moon reference. --Wikiwikifast 22:38, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The edit war has manifested itself again. The "Save Our Sailors" external link has been put back into this article after it was previously removed. I really don't believe that Wikipedia should link to SOS, as that organization never expressed a neutral point of view (or enough factual accuracy). But then again, I really am not familiar with Wikipedia's policy, existing or not, of whether or not to allow links to websites that don't have NPOV's of their own or are known to tell half-truths at best. Denelson83 08:05, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Leave it in. half the sites you have posted also don't have an NPOV, so quit taking it out.  There are two sides to this issue, and it seems you have only read the anti-SOS part rather than the pro part.  If you read their articles carefully, they do have a neutral point of view.  They have facts to back up what they say, and if you read magazine articles in anime magazines, they have stated that SOS has broken history. Albeit the poptart fiasco was bad, but you can't judge something like this based on only one aspect. Also, they hold the record for the most letters sent in by fans with the Cartoon Network.  The rights to edit the article are shared by everyone, and you should respect it and leave the link in.  After all, not leaving it in also shows bias towards one angle, doesn't it?


 * Fine. But make sure you sign all your posts. Denelson83 21:24, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well, seems this edit war has not settled down yet, as the SOS link was recently deleted. I have no choice but to open a poll to resolve this issue. Should the SOS link be kept in the article, or left out? Vote by leaving your signature below the appropriate section. Denelson83 10:17, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Keep the SOS link
Keep it. Face it, North American Sailor Moon wouldn't have been here without it. There are several things that can be said about Genvid, Dies Gaudii and the other links you have posted there about how they tend to favour other versions of the series. And in case you forgot, they hold a record with cartoon network with the most number of letters sent in by fans to keep a show on the air. Don't believe me? Give them a call and find out for yourself.


 * (This does not count as a vote because there is no signature.)

--agreed, also their info is seriously off and wrong. Serve Our Selves did NOTHING to actually bring Sailormoon to the US, and has caused the fandom, companies, and creator more trouble than good. --Hitsuji Kinno 22:59, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

Leave it out
--Kunzite 01:13, 2004 Dec 14 (UTC) also editing the other links to neutral descripts. i.e. Genvid descript uses a superlative.

The statement "North American Sailor Moon wouldn't have been here without it" (SOS) is very incorrect. And while the Pop Tarts campaign is an example of SOS making history, the history in question is the history of Sailor Moon fandom, not the history of Sailor Moon. Ken Arromdee 30 June 2005 14:48 (UTC)

Last I heard, they don't even exist anymore. Shingen 08:22, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

ja: link
For some reason,the ja: links for this and another article were malfunctioning to the point that I had to create #REDIRECT links for the phantom ja: articles(with "gibberish" titles).Ranma9617 20:36, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Naming order
I think the naming order should be mentioned in the character listing. WhisperToMe 06:04, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * ... that's what the individual character pages are for. The really casual reader doesn't care, and anyone else will be able to tell which order they're in -- or at least that they need to go to the individual character's page to find out. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 22:02, 2004 Sep 15 (UTC)

American Sailor Moon
(plus Seramy&#363; Style issues)

Why is that very long and boring history of every major channel the show has played on in the US the main entry? Can't it be moved to it's own section?


 * I'm not even sure it's notable myself. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 01:58, 2004 Sep 30 (UTC)


 * Well... Let's move it then. -- Kunzite


 * Knock yourself out... you can probably take large portions of the rest of this article with it. How does Localization of Sailor Moon in America sound? --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 05:42, 2004 Oct 1 (UTC)

Second: it's "Seramy&#363;" not SeraMy&#363;. It's a common style of Japanese abbrev. that you've all seen in names like Walkman, Pokemon, Digimon, &#12527;&#12540;&#12503;&#12525;,&#12288;&#12467;&#12531;&#12499;&#12491;, etc... They never cap. the first letter of the second part. --Kunzite 03:12, 2004 Sep 29 (UTC)


 * ... um, you know that section of Japanese name you quoted earlier? I wrote that. (Or at least heavily edited.) No, it's SeraMy&#363; simply because that's how it's usually written in English, which (says the core style guide) more or less overrides everything else. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 01:58, 2004 Sep 30 (UTC)


 * Well that's very nice that you wrote that article. I originally edited that article because it was wrong for implying that the 'seramyu' was something western fans had made up. I had seperate sources for it, but I thought it better to quote from the wikipedia even though it lacked information on the Chinese influence of that style of abbreviation.


 * The only reason I mentioned that I wrote it is that you seemed to be citing it as an example of "abbreviations shouldn't be capitalized". ... where was that bit about Anglophones making it up implied, incidentally? Not that I'm saying it wasn't, I just can't find it offhand. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 05:42, 2004 Oct 1 (UTC)

Anyway... where are the statistics that show Seramy&#363; is written as SeraMy&#363; rather than Seramy&#363;? There's no consistancy[sic] on it... and it's NEVER done with the macron. Maybe in WAAPUROshiki as SERAMYUU.


 * Looking at the first hundred Google returns (without actually entering the site): 32 SeraMyu, 28 Seramyu, 10 used all caps or all lowercase, 4 were spaced or hyphenated (either "Sera-Myu" or "Sera Myu", however), and 5 didn't have any examples in the snippet of page text Google provided. That said, I obtained my initial estimate (which I now cede was a misestimate) by eyeball: the "majority" (what little there is) is close enough that I shan't bother editing a page save for internal consistency anymore (much as American English vs. Commonwealth English).
 * And we don't use wapuro romaji (you can hardly call it -shiki) in articles any more than we use Kunrei-shiki. Hepburn doesn't care about capitals, last I checked, but we do put the macrons on. (See the archived conversation at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style for Japan-related articles/Macrons.) --Aponar Kestrel  (talk) 05:42, 2004 Oct 1 (UTC)


 * Well, they give it a -shiki suffix here. I know wiki jp style says not to use it, but y'all use modified hepburn romaji for things that's goes against the style guide because of popularity. Though I guess Seramyuu could also be considered modified hepburn.  While, I prefer using WAAPURO style online because of its[sic itur ad astra] ease, I know this is supposed to be a formal language setting and I won't use it here.

"Wikipedia is an English encyclopedia. An English word or name with a Japanese origin should be used in its English form in the body of an article, even if that is pronounced or spelled differently from the properly romanized Japanese form"

We also violate another main style the spelling with the Ten'o&#363;, Meioh, and Kaioh nonsense that's been going..


 * Hey, Whisper! You get to explain this one. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 05:42, 2004 Oct 1 (UTC)

Quoth the style guide:"Each article should have uniform spelling and not a haphazard mix of different spellings (it can be jarring to the reader). In particular, for individual words and word-endings."-- Kunzite


 * Yeah, it's annoying when two style guidelines want contradictory results with no suggested way of resolving the contradiction, isn't it? --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 05:42, 2004 Oct 1 (UTC)


 * Sure there's a way to resolve it. The way in which y'all determine which is the most commonly used term is arbitrary and not mentioned anywhere in the style guide. Google contains a lot of outdated pages that may have old incorrect ways of refering to something that are no longer commonly used. (IIRC--though I don't dispute that it might be common practice.) That's the weak link in the equation. The extremly clear rule is that everything should be in the same format.


 * Why not average the results? We could average all of the searches that determine which name order that is chosen... average all of the searches that determine if Modified Hepburn or Macron Hepburn is more popular. That way one would get the most popular usage, but are also the most consistant at the same time.  --Kunzite 23:41, 2004 Oct 2 (UTC)


 * Yea, I'll explain it. Uhm, the articles are in a disarray here. In the Manual of Style, it states: "Wikipedia is an English encyclopedia. An English word or name with a Japanese origin should be used in its English form in the body of an article, even if that is pronounced or spelled differently from the properly romanized Japanese form: use Mount Fuji, Tokyo, jiu jitsu, shogi and not Fujisan, T&#333;ky&#333;, j&#363;jutsu, sh&#333;gi. Give the romanized Japanese form in the opening paragraph if it differs from the English form (see below)."

There was an argument about this on Talk:InuYasha. As it turns out, one should generally go for what's more common, even if it is not the proper romanized Japanese. WhisperToMe 01:57, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * It really doesn't matter if the names are in kunrei-shiki, nippon-shiki, hepburn, modified hepburn, passport hepburn, wapuro-shiki, modified kunrei-shiki, or modified nippon-shiki. *They just need to be consistantly done!*  The patchwork method does not look good. --Kunzite 03:24, 2004 Nov 13 (UTC)


 * Now, "Kaioh", "Tenoh", and "Meioh" are more or less the most common romanizations for the surnames of those characters, AND the official romanizations of the surnames of the said characters in both the Japanese and English adaptations.

Even though the Japanese order gets more google hits, I'm in favor of using Naoko Takeuchi's method of romanizing Sailor Moon names, which in that case, is Western order. WhisperToMe 02:01, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

That's taking the mode, not the mean (average). Hey, what's the justification for the dumb anime practice of using nonAsians in Japan with Japanese names and lives? The only acceptable excuse I can think of is these are naturalised immigrants, like those who come to the US, who change their names to make it easy for everyone there. But why are they there? lysdexia 20:02, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * 1. Huh?

2. Wikipedia is to be descriptive, NOT proscriptive. :) WhisperToMe 02:34, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Chibi Usa's article
I think her article should be at "Chibi-Usa" - this is what Geneon/Pioneer uses in the Uncut DVD releases of Sailor Moon. WhisperToMe 23:26, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Just found that they also use "Chibi Usa". I'll have to see on their site what name they use consistently... WhisperToMe 23:27, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Chibiusa v. Chibi-usa v. Chibi-Usa v. Chibi Usa should also be addressed. All romanizations of the name are Chibiusa according to Takeuchi-sensei (volumes 10, and 11). Her full name should also be posted. Tsukino Usagi Small Lady Selenity and be marked as manga, only. Also address the usual idiocy of people trying to stick on Chiba on the end of her name. I also believe that the anime books use this too. --Hitsuji Kinno 22:53, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
 * Heck, why not dispense with the spelling issue and just use my shorthand numeric code for her - 9. Denelson83  02:10, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Again, names and spellings
But this time, I think we should use the spellings in Naoko Takeuchi's take on Sailor Moon - in Roman characters she places her characters' names in Western order - and the Meioh/Kaioh/Tenoh bunch has the "oh"s in their names. WhisperToMe 01:27, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hmm, since there is no response, it appears there is no opposition to this... WhisperToMe 04:43, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Guess not. Proceed. Denelson83 05:43, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Expand on "elemental themes"
There is a mention of Japanese elemental themes in the article. I feel that this can be expanded by noting the correlation between the proper names of the characters and the names of the planets in Japanese (with the notable exception of Sailor Venus). The same can be done with the Senshi attacks (and is the most probable explaination of Jupiter's Oak Evolution). UTSRelativity 06:58, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Never mind; sufficient explanation is on the character pages UTSRelativity 07:26, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Manga Links v. Anime
If there is no opposition, I'd like to add some links to the manga version of it. Including Alex Glover's translations. Nothing heavy, just basics.

I'd also like to note that I did some changes to the Naoko Takeuchi page. It was poorly done, so I added some more info and rearranged the manga listings, etc in order. I also gave credit to people, and added some links and basic explaination. Unless someone wants to do a page on japanese name endings, I'm thinking it should stay there.--Hitsuji Kinno 23:14, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

Less than appropriate
I noticed there was a blurb in the external links section that does not appear in the "edit" area of the external links. It would be nice to remove the sentence blurb about Sailor Moon liking to do certain things. . . --Cresh 22:17, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't know what you are talking about. Could you clarify that?  Denelson83  22:41, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Japanese romanizations, etc.
I was wondering what source was being used for some of the characters' romnizations. Demande/Demand and Saphir don't seem completely correct (I thought they were Demando and Safir). Nitpicky, sure, but still. Stratton 08:26, May 29, 2005 (UTC)--

Adding Your Own Links
Don't post your page or your friend's page just because you want the promotion. I didn't post my page. I posted page of others that are well-known in the Sailormoon community. If you want to be posted on the links, build up a base to the effect that you have something no one else has and people see you as an icon.

I'm debating on whether or not to delete Genvid, too because most of the info on their site has been crap, and not info at all, and their book has a lot to be desired for a fan, or even a beginner. --;; When one of the heads of the website is asking what color is the Ginzuishou, they need help. OK? It's friggin' silver. If you don't know what Ki is, you really don't know Japanese culture. (Usagi's Ki in the anime is pink, in the manga silver). --;;

Anyway, before I go on a tirade, I would like to stress, USEFUL links of things like an encyclopedia, manga translations, new sailormoon info and news, etc should go up on an encyclopedia. Not The fantastic Jackie's Page kind of stuff, or your new domain or that book promotion dealie. Keep it straight and clean.

I added the Sailor Senshi page too, since that's one of the oldest sites, and a lot better than Serve Ourselves. (SOS)

Hitsuji Kinno

What is #2's actual surname?
See User talk:Denelson83/Sailor Moon for an explanation of the number.

I am of the opinion that Sailor Mercury's proper surname is "Mizuno", even in the English adaptation of Sailor Moon. She only used the "Anderson" name once, in the 37th episode of the English anime, but I believe she was only at a residence of someone with that name as an au pair. Is there any evidence to confirm or deny this? Denelson83 03:01, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * She definitely uses Mizuno in the S and SuperS dub. (All the dubs are written and produced by most of the same people so the difference between "DiC" and "Optimum" is moot) --Sketchee 05:10, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)


 * Where she used Anderson there was Mizuno before. So this is how it should go:

Dic- Anderson Mixx- Mizuno Cloverway- Mizuno Japanese (both media)- Mizuno

You shouldn't favor one over the other because it was used more, it's just the fact of things. That's like saying because one of the media said that Usagi was 22 when she became Queen that the other one did too. Or because Usagi transformed X number of times in one transformation, that it should be that for the entire series. That logic doesn't make sense. So, it's BOTH.

Amy Mizuno Amy Anderson Ami Mizuno

Those are all valid, depending on where and when you are basing it. O.o;; on a silly side, if someone was to write a dub fan fiction and had Amy go back in time from the Super SuperS arc, then it would be Amy Mizuno running into Amy Anderson.. but that's a whole different story.

ja!
 * Hitsuji Kinno June 30, 2005 23:36 (UTC)


 * They never actually called her "Amy Anderson". She answered a phone "Anderson residence" in one episode. That is all.  If we want to include that tidbit, we can just say "In one episode she answered the phone Anderson residence, however the name was never mentioned again."  It would be misleading to claim in the article that the name was used throughout the DiC financed dub.  Where the word "breasts" was used in one episode, it was replaced with "talent"; it's inconclusive whether or not they were translating the original telephone scene or if they had adapted it to have her babysitting or what.
 * The same studio wrote the scripts with the same producer (who in interviews proudly took credit for many of the changes and names) and several of the same writers were on all dub runs. The Dic/Cloverway distinction is fairly insignificant. --Sketchee 17:43, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)


 * People don't call me by my whole name that often in America, so what's your point? Usually people in the US call each other by their first names until there is a need for distinction. The fan book, I believe claimed her name to be different... so it's all on how one sees it. Since Hitoshi Doi supports the thesis that her last name in the dub is Anderson until the cloverway dub, as well as Castle in the Sky, The Sailor Senshi page, The Sailormoon FAQ by Ken Aromdee plus a bunch more in the 90's I would still support this thesis.

For the record, there are a lot of differences in the way that Cloverway and DiC handled the dub. The VA company (Optimum) might have been the same, but since there were different kinds of financial pressures, it highly effected the dub and how it was handled. People might not remember anymore, but the major differences were in how the translation was handled, how the music cues were handled, and what was and was not allowed. I believe that the Cloverway dub also aimed a bit higher at an older audience because they had Cartoon Network as sponsors rather than Irwin, whose main aim was to sell dolls. Also the fact that it was originally meant for cable-- not broadcast TV made quite a differnce. The music included was different as well. Those are markable enough to make a difference in the feel of the series enough for people to spark large debates about which version of the dub was better. Anything that sparks debates and is notable, should be considered so to any kind of fan, though I don't think it is remarkable for an encyclopedia as long as there are distinctions made enough for each individual to want to look for them, if they would want to. Ja!
 * Hitsuji Kinno June 30, 2005 23:36 (UTC)

There is a logical explaination for that. When Amy talks about her parents, she never talks about both of them, just either her mother or her father at a time. My theory is that her parents separated when she was younger and she grew up with her mother, who remarried someone named Anderson.Kogsquinge 07:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Prune Links
I think people have gone a little overboard with all the links, everyone trying to grab there little piece of the Sailormoon pie, lol. I also noticed it's mostly anon-IPs who added many of those links (presumably to skirt the "do not add your own site" rule). I think we should take a vote on the links that currently exist, and par that back to a tighter handful. I think the official site and Hotoshi Doi's site are the two we can all agree should remain... but honestly, let's weed out the interlopers who've secretly added themselves. Not only for that reason, but because I find the links list ridiculously large. I propose a vote on the existing links (any future additions can be delt with when that happens later)? -- NatsukiGirl \talk 05:03, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Most of them are well known, popular sites. I can see getting rid of Average Chat, Warriors of Legend (though that might be personal bias speaking), and In Defense of SuperS (permanently broken link it seems), but the others are too valuable. -- RattleMan 05:55, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
 * That's basically what I ment. However, how many websites do we really need on the subject? Like, most of them just have all the usual info... nothing special or unique. Besides, it's not a function of wiki to be a links list. -- NatsukiGirl \talk 20:25, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Ok, I think I've solved the main issue. There were two tripod/geocities sites listed with poor/incorrect info) also Average Chat was 404, so I removed all three. Now the list seems a little tighter. However, we might even do well by removing sites that simply duplicate info. We should pick the best ones out of the existing. So my vote would be Dies Gaudii, Hitoshi, and official for KEEP (Gaudii is good, because it's quite encyclopedic... although, also very opinionated, but since the facts are marked and the opinions are noted... it's a good one. Hitoshi for posterity, and then of course the official site), and the rest simply voted upon (which I will refrain from, since the voting thing was my own idea) for whichever contains the most/best/accurate info... like I said before, we don't need a links list of 20 Sailormoon profiles all with the same info... let's keep it varied, interesting, and encyclopedic. -- NatsukiGirl \talk 20:25, 27 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I'd also vote for Alex Glover--many people were exposed to the manga version through him, and though I worked for a short time for Mixx Entertainment/Tokyopop, their translations pretty much suck. He has the translations for the original and all of them. Though he never finished the shinzoubon version, he is invaluable on several levels. There HAS to be SOME manga references. Afterall, it started out as a MANGA. Kinda of a shame to see no one to know things from the manga as much anymore.
 * I'd also vote for Ken Aromdee's FAQ.
 * When I was starting out as a Sailormoon fan, my top links were Ken Aromdee, Hitoshi Doi and Alex Glover (though not necessarily in that order). Those three men alone, you could learn about the ENTIRE series off of without sweating too much over details. (Everybody who had a website, even a crappy one linked those three) (Usagi and Mamoru dot com also has Alex Glover's original translations, if you want an alternate.)
 * Official has to stay, of course. And one link to a SM Live site, I'd say Shingetsu. Shingetsu, however, was the first, and is currently the most listed and recognizable website to the subject. That would cull it down to at least 5 basic sites. (Official, Ken Aromdee, Hitoshi Doi, Alex Glover, Shingetsu). The fan fiction listings, and articles, etc, might need another section for it, but that's getting the article a touch long.
 * I don't know if you want to include the companies' websites too, but I don't think it's worth it.
 * Genvid I could do without, their forums are weak, their knowledge is limited, and the book that they are promoting has errors on various levels that make me gag as an old Sailormoon fan. (Apparently they cut it down because of publishing costs, but they could have used Lulu... but that's a different matter.)
 * Hitsuji Kinno 02:28, 19 November 2005 (UTC)


 * P.S. Dies Gaudii--the web master of that makes a lot of basic mistakes, and tends to piss off the rest of the SM community with arrogance. ^^;; I don't know if keeping him up there would be a good idea since he has some ego issues, and his information is often *looks* detailed and backed, but when you hunt down his sources he *neglects* a lot of things that should have been thought about. He once thought that Ginzuishou *should* be translated as "Silver Water Stone* and paraded around telling everyone that Alex Glover was wrong. However, he failed to look up the *complete* kanji... which reads: Maboroshi no Ginzuishou. He has several instances of this. There are flaws in his Mau theory, his french connection theories, and several etymology connections he tries for. What he's good for, are only 2 articles. Those are The Sailor Pluto/Sailor Saturn debacle (which is incomplete last time I saw it, since he was missing a huge bit of information that would have nicely rounded it out.), and his Timeline Theory (Which is deeply debated anyhow, for the fanatics among us).
 * If you want someone who does insane information, but also backs it with sources, and verified sources, there is Sheer Lunacy! It's MUCH more detailed, and it goes into other aspects as well. Plus he hasn't pissed off most of the (old) Sailormoon Community. (He was also around before Dies Gaudii). He also has a tendancy to post people who helped him along the way, list alternate theories, and has a ton of random information. I tend to favor people who give credit to other people, help them out, and are willing to look into alternate theories other than their own and post both on their website anyhow (even if they disagree).
 * News website, hands down is the Sailor Senshi Page, which is one of the first and oldest sites around. But that's only if you want to list something of that sort... It would have basic stats, etc. It's also very listed, and considered rather definitive. (People look up to that website). ^^;; I know my SM community info.


 * Hitsuji Kinno 02:51, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I know Sheer Lunacy, I'm one of the people who started some of research with him years ago (I'm sweetusagi.com btw... my site has been static for years now, but I keep it up just because... why waste the work). I have some issues with the webmaster of SL... but I won't go into it, it has nothing to do with info, and he has a lot of info to give. Also, I'm well aware of the arrogance factor in Dies Gaudii... however, I always ignored his site and just assumed it had indepth articles on it. It's actually heartwarming to discover he's full of crap. Lol, those wo talk the most and loudest usually have nothing of worth to say, I guess. lol NatsukiGirl

TV ratings
TV-MA? How could this show get such a rating in the United States? Denelson83 03:23, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Saban?
This article says that Saban would have done the live action/animated version of the series. The main article about the English adaption mentions that as a misconception. Which is correct? Ken Arromdee 19:25, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

A little note about the letters after episode numbers
These letters refer to different internationalized versions of the series. The "J", as you might expect, refers to the original Japanese version. Other versions include:

-- Denelson83 07:36, 17 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Can we please refrain from making arbitrary abbreviation conventions for this article/series? It's very difficult to discern.  --Kunzite 22:00, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
 * cosign. Danny Lilithborne 10:08, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree--the problem with that system is that you have Y for Cantonese, and N for Filipino (Which isn't a language, BTW) and then S for Swedish, but then there are Spanish versions. It's too difficult to remember, too convoluted, arbritrary, and it would be a lot easier to just simply use language encoding signs that the w3.org uses than to use a whole new system. (en for english, for example.)


 * E is from Español, FYI. And I had to use N for Filipino Tagalog because F and T were used already.  Likewise with Cantonese and Mandarin (C and M were used already).  Denelson83  09:58, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem isn't the letters; it's with the maker of the letters who likes to assign arbitrary numbering systems to things. At one point he had numbered each of the characters in the show and was refering them by number on the wikipedia.  It is very very confusing to people who know the show, muchless someone who knows nothing about it.  We should either spell out the words or use a standard language abbreviation. i.e. ISO 639-1 or ISO 639-2 with a wikilink to the language page.


 * --Kunzite 02:14, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
 * You are referring to this page. And by the way, I still use that code system internally, but on that page, it states that I only use that system on talk pages, unless otherwise specified (meaning I limit my use of it).  And if you wish to dismiss the scheme I listed above as arbitrary, then I will start using the ISO 639 codes.  Denelson83  03:10, 29 January 2006 (UTC)