Talk:San people/Archive 1

Different groups, different names
The group of bushmen in the Nyae Nyae region of Namibia definitely called themselves "Bushmen" when I was there in 2000 and again in 2005.

My understanding is that the group in Botswana (where I have not been) prefer to call themselves "San".

The article does not address the current economy. Many people believe that the bushmen still live as hunter gatherers (which was stated as a claim in "The Gods Must be Crazy"). This is most emphatically not true and not possible given the relatively small area that the bushmen are allowed to occupy in Nyae Nyae. I think this point, among others, should be stated in the article.

Cre 21:25, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Merge Bushmen and !Kung people?
Shouldnt the !Kung article be merged to Bushmen. !Kung people consists mostly of a cut-n-paste of someone's essay, and !Kung are Bushmen. --Ezeu 02:32, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

The !Kung language article suggests that this is a subgroup. --Henrygb 13:52, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, the !Kung are definitely a sub-group of the Bushmen. Also, here's a paragraph from the !Kung language article:


 * !Kung is endangered, along with most other Khoisan languages, because of encroaching Bantu and Khoi cultures. The Herero and Nama languages are becoming more commonly spoken among the Kung-ekoka, and the hunter-gatherer way of life that is typical of the Khoisan-speaking peoples is being eroded by Bantu and Khoi farming settlements.


 * Since they are neither Bantu nor Khoi, this can only suggest that they are a Bushmen tribe. I support the merge. --Khoikhoi 18:54, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I am retracting my merge suggestion. Will try to cleanup and expand !Kung instead. After all, wikipedia is not running out of space.--Ezeu 17:43, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

How about merging them with Berbers?

Image from The New Students Reference Book
Here is a link to a picture you might want to use when this article expands further: Image:NSRW Africa Bushman Woman.png.-- Birgitte§β ʈ  Talk  22:39, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Reason for revert
The info added by User:Chueyjoo (who hasn't contributed to any other article except Assata Shakur on 29 May 2005, also involving a possible copyvio) is quite dodgy, which I've reverted wholesale: Dewet 20:50, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Image:Bushmen1.jpg is a possible copyvio, which I've tagged and added to WP:PUI.
 * "Bushmen are known to be shorter than other ethnic africans, and they usually have asiatic oval eyes." &mdash; while I could be swayed for the 'shorter' attribute, I'm not biting the 'asiatic oval eyes'. I'd like to see a cite of some sort of medical text before we re-add this.
 * Nelson Mandela most definitely was not a bushman; he was (and still is) Xhosa.

Are they farmers,Nomadic Hurders or Hunter Gatherers? -Jason


 * Well, traditionally they're hunter-gatherers, but for information about how most of them live today, I suggest you read this article. Click here for the full text. Cheers. &mdash; Khoikhoi  02:44, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Image
For those who want to spend some time... a user on Flickr has this set of photos licensed as CC-BY-SA-2.0 which means they can be uploaded to the commons for our use here... gren グレン 23:36, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

article needs more historic data
this people has a significant cultural heritage of an important early civilization. who can help to expand this theme? ive started a section on history. regards Covalent 05:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

article is not to wikipedia standards
I have added the standard template because sections of the article are to encycopedic standard.

For exemple this paragraph: Another great problem is regards to hunting. This area contains two obvious dilemmas. Number one ; the Bushmen of the Kalahari and elsewhere are persecuted and in Botswana imprisoned and even tortured for hunting; a traditional right since thousands of years before the present colonists ever arrived; this is a travesty of justice, but the second point of injustice is that American and other tourists travel to various southern African countries and go on hunting holidays! Not only is this an insult since Bushmen wish to hunt respectfully for survival and the maintenance of their traditional life, one of the oldest on the planet, but these foreign, 'sport ' hunters have been indiscriminately hunting such game as Eland and Kudu-game sacred to Bushmen and in the case of the Eland for example, a creature of supreme importance, not only culturally and spiritually as is the Kudu, but in the ecology of the land , as according to Bushman lore, Eland are related to the bringing of/ coming of the rains.

Kilrati 17:50, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

The whole thing's atrocious. Peppered with Politically Correct hand-wringing and white man's guilt. I fell asleep before I found out something I didn't know. What a bore.


 * This does not sound remotely like an encyclopedia. While I agree with some of the sentiments expressed, this article violates NPOV.
 * "Other problems exist, such as that regarding the rock art, sacred to the Bushmen being 'owned' or in custody of the South African Government and often, it appears, on private lands where land owners make money from tourism but the traditional inheritors of the art cannot visit, or afford to visit , are further thorns in the side and contribute to what was outright genocide but now is occuring as a subtler but nevertheless devastating policy of ethnocide. Simply put , it appears most Southern African countries want the Bushmen to disappear from existence, something which understanding the issues, it is incument on us to prevent yo mama"


 * Unless this is a direct quote from someone giving an opinion, this has no place in an encyclopedia. (By the way, I have no connection to this article previously, and I haven't edited much, I'm just a dedicated reader of Wikipedia who was taken aback by this page.)-Randomglitter 17:17, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

San/Bushmen
The Third Edition of The Dobe Ju/'hoansi by Richard B. Lee states that the term San means "aborigines" or "settlers proper" and that "t]he term Bushman has both racist and sexist connotations." As a footnote, however, it states, "'The Term San is not without problems of its own. Some point to this Nama term's negative connotations, meaning 'worthless' or 'no account.' And the term Bushman has its advocates among anthropologists and others. San leaders themselves are divided over the term Bushmen. At a recent meeting reported by Megan Biesele, one said he never wanted to hear the term used again in post-apartheid Namibia. Another argued that the term could be ennobled by the way in which they themselves now chose to use it. However, as Pan-San or Pan-Bushman political consciousness grows in southern Africa, we assume a general term will emerge. By the late 1990s, San had come into general use by the San people themselves. (9)"

If the term has come into general use by the San/Bushmen themselves, then it would seem that that is the appropriate term to use to describe. And if this was so by the late 1990s, then it seems unlikely the popularity of the term San has dwindled to the extent the article suggests. I personally don't feel confident in our current sources. And although states that the term Bushmen is in common use among the San/Bushmen, there is no source given. Theshibboleth 11:02, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Plagarism?
This article is either a direct copy of this page or the other page is a direct copy of the wikipedia article.

http://www.answers.com/topic/bushmen —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.145.10.22 (talk) 01:27, 14 March 2007 (UTC).


 * Wikipedia is the source. Many sites mirror Wikipedia and add advertising banners to make your view experiencing more pleasant. -- Stbalbach 19:28, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Article name
Please get consensus before changing the article name. -- Stbalbach 12:41, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all Infobox Ethnic group infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 21:02, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Motivating Recent Edits to "government persecution" section...
I have removed this title, since using the words "government persecution" is neither factual, nor verifiable and bordering on the inflamatory.

I have also added references to the official government's statement on the issue, so as to ensure the article remains UNBIASED and shows BOTH SIDES of the story.

I have removed any language which may be construed as unbiased.

In particular, I have removed statements that were not verifiable (and are therefore considered not factual)

Where unsubstantiated facts were stated, I have preceded the paragraphs with "It is claimed.." or "it is rumoured.." or "it is alleged..." Since that is all that it is, until verification and citation can be provided.

Please feel free to improve add or edit - but lets stick to Wiki standards and provide a factual, balanced article to the public...

Give the public the FACTS and let them make up their own minds about which side to take.

PS - I am avidly in favour of support for the Bushmen people, their crisis and am in no way diminishing the hardship they suffer. However - wikipedia is not the platform to put forward subjective views and emotional convictions. Dzstudios 14:39, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

class X words?
"The term is a class 2 noun (as indicated by the "ba-" class marker), while an older class 6 variant, "Masarwa," is now almost universally considered offensive.[5] (using class 5 labels with class 6 plurals is a common strategy used by speakers of southern Bantu languages to show contempt for ethnic groups, though there are many societies whose own endonyms are class 1 nouns with irregular class 6 plurals)"

Could somebody explain this better, please? What are class 2 nouns, class 5 labels, etc.? -Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.205.73.210 (talk) 17:23, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * That's a certain scheme used in describing Bantu languages. Please see Sesotho nouns. Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 17:30, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

!Kung
My understanding is that !Kung is one of the languages spoken by the Bushmen; the article on the !Kung language refers to it being spoken by "perhaps 15,000 Saan". As such, where does !Kung people fit in? Should there be a merge?

I confess I have no idea at all, but hopefully someone here knows what's up. The article is currently unwatched, so thought I'd bring it to someone's attention. Thanks all. Shimgray | talk | 20:22, 8 January 2006 (UTC)


 * My guess is that the !Kung are probably a sub-group of the Bushmen, correct me if I'm wrong. It should probably be made clear on that article. --Khoikhoi 22:11, 8 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The !Kung are a subgroup (tribe) of San with their own distinct language, in the same way that German, French, Italian are subgroups and languages of Europeans. I have a university textbook that is all about the !Kung. Roger (talk) 20:34, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Oldest people of the world - nonsene
"Genetic evidence suggests they are one of the oldest, if not the oldest, peoples in the world — a "genetic Adam" according to Spencer Wells, from which all humans can ultimately trace their genetic heritage.[1]"

This is just stupid and/or racist statement. How can some people be "the oldest"? Did they stop evolving 100 000 years ago, while the other people kept evolving? Or were the other people "created" later? I can understand, that changing habitat will pose greater evolutionary pressure for peoples moving out of Africa, but labeling as "the oldest people" is just pseudo science. This line should be removed or changed to make some sense.--Jarri K (talk) 15:27, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


 * agree with this comment; that's not a really good paraphrasing of Spencer Well's book, and I don't think he labeled "Genetic Adam" (or "Eve") as being from any specific group other than being in Africa at certain points in time Spettro9 (talk) 11:53, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * It makes sense to someone with a rudimentary knowledge of evolutionary biology. The "Capoid race" as an identifiable genotype extends back further than so called Negroids, Caucasoids, Mongoloids, or Australoids. While it's misleading to say the rest of humanity "evolved" from them (implying that they're more beast-like, or a "missing link") the more agreeable term would be that we diverged from them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wormwoodpoppies (talk • contribs) 22:52, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

merge?
I deleted (rd'd) the Khoisan article as nonsense. Turns out there wasn't much in it to save anyway. Here's some stuff that might be relevant here, if s.o. wants to integrate it into the article:


 * Historically, they have been referred to as the Capoid race because they can be visually distinguished from most other sub-Saharan Africans by way of their relatively lighter skin color and their epicanthic folds. From the beginning of the Upper Paleolithic period, hunting and gathering cultures known as the Sangoan occupied southern Africa in areas where annual rainfall is less than 40 inches (1016mm)&mdash;and today's San resemble the ancient Sangoan skeletal remains. The San people were the original inhabitants of much of southern Africa before the southward Bantu expansion &mdash; coming down the east and west coasts of Africa &mdash; and later European colonization.


 * Over the centuries the many branches of the San peoples were absorbed, killed, or displaced by Bantu speaking societies who were migrating south in search of new lands, most notably the Xhosa and Zulu. Both have adopted some San clicks and loan words into their respective languages. The San survived in the desert or in areas with winter rains which were not suitable for Bantu crops. During the colonial era they lived in South Africa, Namibia and Botswana. Today many of the San live in parts of the Kalahari Desert where they are better able to preserve much of their cherished culture.

kwami (talk) 03:20, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Cheap shots
I am a decendant of the nation known as The Bushman.We go by the term Coloureds now,because we wear Fancy dress and can speak English.I would like to congratulate the degenerate wankers who hide behind cryptic nicks on a job well done.Your vandalism of this page and unprovoked slander is a fine testament to the perils of idle time and not so idle hands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theospeak (talk • contribs)


 * That's quite a sweeping statement. Why don't you (since the onus rests on yourself) tell us what's wrong, or even better, fix it yourself?  It's no help making personal attacks on other contributors and vague accusations. dewet|✉ 05:45, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The descendant of the nation is probably a Bastar of Rehobath. What he (she) didn't say, is that there were thirty odd racial classifications in South West Africa, before it became independent. !Kung, and their relatives had their own classification, which was not one of the ten or so "Coloured" classifications. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.40.54.252 (talk • contribs) 23:41 (UTC), 16 June 2006


 * lol wat —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wormwoodpoppies (talk • contribs) 22:48, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

ey, speaking of cheap shots, why's half the article in past-tense, like these dudes don't exist anymore? Either they're still around, or the "population" section of the general information window in the top right is grossly inaccurate, right? Furthermore, the user Theospeak seems convinced that they're not extinct. Am I missing something, here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.68.173 (talk) 23:42, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Appropriate ethnonym
So San is offensive? Wetman 07:51, 3 May 2004 (UTC) the san(also known as bushmen or bawsarwa.
 * Pretty sure. - Nat Krause 08:06, 3 May 2004 (UTC)


 * Definitely. San comes from the neighbouring Nama, and means outsider. thefamouseccles 10:00, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

On a related note, I think I've heard or read the (non-sexist?) term BUSH PEOPLE or BUSHPEOPLE somewhere. How common is this in Southern Africa? Wikipeditor 14:23, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

How is "Bushmen" offensive? You aren't one of these semantics lunatics who think that the patriarchy is hidden in the english language are you?

-TEH OGROK Actually, bushmen, bushpeople, bushwomen, etc... these are all considered offensive. These people are now called, anthropologically, the San, and, more appropriately, are classified as within the khoisan language group, which is characterized by an integrated "clicking" noise. I belive that the currently acceptable term for these people is the khwe. 206.188.163.1 02:39, 31 January 2007 (UTC)Mariyah


 * According to Bushmen expert Elizabeth Marshall Thomas in her 2006 book The Old Way, Bushmen is "how most Bushmen refer to themselves collectively" (Introduction). San is a pejorative term among the Bushmen. -- Stbalbach 16:19, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I also heard that they were called Basarwa in Botswana; if this term is used to describe all bushmen (not just the botswanian ones), perhaps opt for this name instead and rename article. Another possible name is RAD (remote area dwellers), I don't like "bushmen" as it is a term invented and used by the European kolonials.

81.244.192.200 (talk) 08:40, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

"Bushman" is also inappropriate because it's a term used for all African non-Pygmy foragers. The Hadza, e.g., are called "Bushmen", but have nothing to do with this article.

"Khwe" might be appropriate, but is perhaps better for the Khoi peoples (Khwe and Khoi are cognate). San is the general anthropological word. Is it any more offensive than "Bushman"? kwami (talk) 03:24, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Richard Borshay Lee includes a statement at the very beginning of his ethnography, The Dobe !Kung, saying that he considers the term "Bushmen" inappropriate. Matthew Durington, a visual anthropologist who has worked with the !Kung said the same in a lecture that I attended at Towson University in 2006. There is also an incomplete article titled !Kung (people) that needs to be merged with this one, so that would be a good opportunity to fix the title issue. Randomundergrad (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 07:36, 30 January 2009 (UTC).

Aren't significant numbers of ethnonyms given by outsiders (exonyms), and originally imbued with none-too-kind connotations? The word "Welsh" also meant "foreigner" at one time, but I can't remember the last time I read anything about the "Cymry" people, even by the most politically-correct authors. It seems to me that a good ethnonym needs to strike a balance between accuracy, recognizability, and inoffensiveness. --74.248.228.7 (talk) 06:46, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Name of the article is highly offensive
Bushmen? In 2009? Really?! Seriously, to whoever made this, and defends it, the word "Bushmen" is a racist slur, and has no place in a modern-day encyclopedia except in a "History of Racism" article. The accepted term is "San People". Only a bigot would use the term "Bushmen", excepting of course preceded with a phrase like "Hundreds of years ago racists used to call the San...". 41.245.165.55 (talk) 14:26, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The issue of naming is already addressed in the article: Bushmen. Please show reliable sources for "San People" being a mainstream international name for these people, and then propose a move of the article to the new name. Note that Survival International, who work directly with indigenous tribal people, use the term Bushmen, so accusing editors who prefer that term of being racist is not constructive and should be avoided. Fences  &amp;  Windows  17:22, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Upcoming research
The following material removed from the article for discussion and future reference. WBardwin (talk) 21:06, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The entire genome of one San individual has been determined along with coding gene variations from four other individuals in a paper to appear in December 2009. Much older ancestral genomes can be accessed via the forthcoming Neanderthal genome and existing genome projects for five species of great apes.

Migration
Why?Tortuga135 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:41, 25 November 2009 (UTC).

John Marshall error
In the Media Presentation paragraph, it states that "Marshall was a fierce and vocal proponent of the Bushman cause throughout his life, which was, in part, due to strong kinship ties, and his marriage to a Bushman wife in his early 20s". The John Marshall wiki page (linked within the article) states he was born in 1932. I've never edited anything on Wiki so I'm hoping someone will come along and correct that error. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.111.212.171 (talk) 04:20, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Land issues, 'right to roam' et al.
Political section needs to be expanded and more balanced, it is not mainly an issue of the current Botswana forced clearances. In every one of the seven countries listed with Bushmen native to them, there have been at one time or another serious conflicts with colonial or post-colonial authorities. Most often these have centred around the Bushmen being dispossessed of land, their right to roam being limited or removed and other situations that act against their ability to continue their traditional way of life.

There has also been a notable history of conflict and cultural prejudice directed towards Bushmen from other local ethnic groups.

I no longer have access to the materials in which I read much of this. Centrepull (talk) 07:54, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Last edit
Sorry, I took out the wrong thing.

68.27.74.182 (talk) 05:10, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Hearsay
This paragraph seems to be pure hearsay, and smacks of conspiracy theory: "Hydro geologists who were officially hired to find water in bushmen territory were actually ordered not to find any, for this would make the original inhabitants far too independent to be relocated to any army bases.[citation needed]." Where did this information come from? Provide a reference. What is hydro geologists referring to? Hydrologists? Hydroelectrical contractors? Should it be generically Hydrogeologists? "Officially hired": By whom? The Botswana Government? I don't see anybody else claiming that the Barswana / San are being relocated to army bases. Please provide a reference.

Unless there is any evidence for any of this, that whole paragraph should be deleted. I have gone to the trouble to change the beginning of the sentence to "It has been suggested...", but I think there is no place for it here at all as it's just plain hearsay.

MFdeS (talk) 03:13, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * OK, no adverse comment, I'll delete the offending section and leave it up to someone else to restore it if they feel strongly enough about it.MFdeS (talk) 03:53, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Bushmen is viewed by the San peoples as a derogatory term
From: http://www.krugerpark.co.za/africa_bushmen.html

"The San are the oldest inhabitants of Southern Africa, where they have lived for at least 20 000 years. The term San is commonly used to refer to a diverse group of hunter-gatherers living in Southern Africa who share historical and linguistic connections. The San were also referred to as Bushmen, but this term has since been abandoned as it is considered derogatory.

There are many different San groups - they have no collective name for themselves, and the terms 'Bushman', 'San', 'Basarwa' (in Botswana) are used. The term, 'bushman', came from the Dutch term, 'bossiesman', which meant 'bandit' or 'outlaw'. "

I may return to edit this article because it is very poorly researched and obviously tainted with more than one agenda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacksawild (talk • contribs) 00:46, 12 June 2010 (UTC)


 * This is an issue that has been rehashed several times both here (for instance here and here, on this very talk page) and elsewhere, so unless you can give references to support the existence of a consensus on the term (and since I'm reasonably familiar with the literature involved, I know for a fact no consensus yet exists), please, don't let's go over it again. There's already a section in the page itself on naming that explains the problems. To some Bushmen, it is San that is the offensive term: it's from a Nama word, sān, which itself has offensive and strongly pejorative connotations; an excellent explanation of its meaning is given in Alan Barnard's Anthropology and the Bushman (pp. ix and 4-6). The idea that San is to be preferred to Bushman is largely the result of Western political correctness. (The article you cite is also disingenuous on the meaning of the Dutch word bosjesman, which literally means "man of the bush" - the sense of "bandit" or "outlaw" is an innovation.) No collective name exists in English that is even close to universally inoffensive and so choosing which to use is to a certain extent a moot point. Thefamouseccles (talk) 06:04, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Merge Bushmen and San (tribe)
This was proposed in October, but I can't see any discussion on this. The two articles should certainly be merged. Greenman (talk) 19:35, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree entirely. --Varsovian (talk) 14:43, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Done - I simply redirected the San article, as there was nothing I could see worth adding to the much more complete Bushmen article. Greenman (talk) 22:02, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Inaccuracy?
I believe that this line is wrong: "Births are generally spaced four years apart due to lack of breast milk" I have not read the cited source, but according to Bates's "Human Adaptive Strategies", the 4 yr child-spacing is due to extended breastfeeding, not a lack of breastfeeding. This makes more sense, as there are few suitable weaning foods in the traditional San diet, and because breastfeeding suppresses ovulation. A lack of breastmilk (unless accompanied by famine conditions) will lead more quickly to ovulation, and thus more children, not fewer. I propose this should be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.59.26.128 (talk) 15:20, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Followup: I think this entire paragraph: "Because of their low-fat diet, women typically have late first menstruations and do not begin bearing children until about 18 or 19 years of age.[17] Births are generally spaced four years apart due to lack of breast milk[18] and requirements of mobility that make feeding and carrying more than one child at a time difficult.[18]" is wrong and should be removed.

1. The source given for this is a single ethnographic account of one woman's life. I HIGHLY doubt the anthropologist (or the informant) has done any sort of scientific study of the quantity of breastmilk their diet can support. 2. Later menstruation in the San/Bushmen diet is most likely caused by a lack of grains, not fat. Grains are well-known to increase fertility (and weight) in livestock, not fat. 3. Their diet isn't even 'low fat'. For example, Lee (Lee and Devore, 1968) documented that in the harsh winter dry season, half of the San diet came from Mongongo nuts--about 300 per day. Mongongo nuts, according to their wikipedia page, are 57% fat. That's a diet that's 28.5% fat, not so different from our own. This is the lean season when there is very little fat on the animals. 4. The issues I pointed out above (in fact, I eat a similar diet and have had no problems producing enough breastmilk,) 5. Extrapolating from one ethnography of one person to an entire population is very questionable.

I therefore propose that this section should be deleted, unless someone has better support. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.59.26.128 (talk) 05:10, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Political Correctness of article name
Bushmen has a rather derogatory connotation, can someone either investigate a better title, or rather explain the necessitous nature of not changing the name of the article?

Please and thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.122.184.166 (talk) 22:47, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * This has been discussed numerous times before - please see the talk page above and the archives. Greenman (talk) 22:35, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Subsistence
Of the mammals, Bushmen hunted antelope (including kudu, springbok, steenbok, duiker, eland, gemsbok, etc), bovids, elephant, etc but not deer, because deer (Family: Cervidae)never occurred in Africa (see Wikipedia) where Bushmen live. Also, the statement that Bushmen hunted dik-dik needs to be verified, because I am uncertain that dik-dik actually occurred in the areas where Bushmen had lived over the last few hundred years. The Hasabe hunter-gatherers of Tanzania, who I think are unrelated to bushmen, do hunt dik-dik. Jan Viljoen (talk) 08:30, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Media presentation
I think the book "Islands" by Dan Sleigh (translated from Afrikaans to English by André Brink) should be mentioned under the heading "Media presentation" in the article. Islands is based on historic fact and covers the first fifty years or so of Dutch settlement at the Cape. It vividly describes the lifestyle of the indigenous Khoi people, the Goringhaicona. The philosophies of various tribal leaders of the Khoi are represented, including a leader named "Chief Harry" by English visitors to the Cape. Subtly, the differences and similarities between Khoi and San lifestyles are depicted, as well as the alternation of some individuals and Khoi groups between dominantly Khoi or San lifestyles. It also strikingly relates the difficulties and problems that occur between the western settlers and the indiginous people and it gives some idea of the roles of slaves imported to the Cape, particularly from Indonesia, Madagascar and India.

For the indigenous people at the Cape, it is the beginning of the end of their traditional way of life as governed by their environment. A niece of one of the tribal leaders, Krotoa, is renamed Eva and brought into Commander Van Riebeeck's household as interpreter between the Europeans and the Khoi and to look after Van Riebeeck's children. She eventually marries a Dutch colonist, and a number of children are born from the union, of which the eldest is a girl named Pieternella. Pieternella is the pivot of the story and eventually becomes one of the first victims of a small pox epidemic that decimated the Khoi. The reader is offered an understanding of the historical forces that shaped the Cape in particular, and which are also shaping the world at large. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jan Viljoen (talk • contribs) 10:49, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Media presentation
John Marshall is the son of Lorna Marshall — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.115.57.135 (talk) 01:02, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 4 February 2012
Two errors re John Marshall in Media Presentation: he is the son (not the brother) of Lorna marshall, and he never had a Bushman wife.

John Bishop

76.115.57.135 (talk) 01:06, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. -- Bryce  ( talk  &#124;  contribs ) 02:10, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, corrected, and expanded John Marshall (filmmaker) and Lorna Marshall a bit. Materialscientist (talk) 04:48, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 2012

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 00:13, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Bushmen → San people – Per autonym preference as the current article title and the term used throughout is considered derogatory by the subjects. I think the article should also consistently use "San" in place of "Bushmen", though the latter term should be mentioned in both the lead and the naming section. O BSIDIAN †  S OUL  22:25, 3 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Support the generic term "bushmen"/"bushman" also can be applied elsewhere, and thus is not sepcific enough. 70.24.251.71 (talk) 04:49, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Elsewhere where? —  AjaxSmack   05:00, 4 March 2012 (UTC)


 * According to the article and its sources, "San" is not an autonym for Bushmen. (Anyway, using automyms that are not common, English names is not typical at Wikipedia.  There might be an argument for "San" based on South African or Namibian English usage [per WP:ENGVAR] but, according to the article, many Bushmen live outside of these countries.)  Furthermore, one of the article's sources notes that both "Bushmen" and "San" are considered to have pejorative connotations by some.  —  AjaxSmack   05:00, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
 * An autonym is a name chosen by the people themselves, regardless of where it came from. And no, you would be completely wrong in the "using automyms that are not common, English names is not typical" part. Please see Naming conventions (people).


 * Generally speaking, the article title should use the common English language term for an ethnic group. How the group self-identifies should be considered. If their autonym is commonly used in English, it would be the best article title. Any terms regarded as derogatory by members of the ethnic group in question should be avoided.


 * The main consideration here is to avoid using a derogatory term as the title and the primary ethnonym in the article. The reference you just gave has conclusions that imply that San has become the preferred term. Examining further sources shows that this has been the case since about the 1960s. The confusion over the Nama origins of the word "San" seems to be relatively recent and caused a lot of academic sources to switch back to using the term "Bushmen". I acknowledge that San is itself alleged to be derogatory and probably is, as is BaSarwa/Barwa and most(?) of the other widely used alternatives. I don't actually care what term ends up being used, the more important question is which of the terms is the least derogatory and the most accepted? Is "Bushmen" really acceptable or is that simply a westerner preference?-- O BSIDIAN  †  S OUL  05:41, 4 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose, per New York Times, BBC, The Guardian, The Botswanna Gazette, Oxford, and Merriam Webster. Amazon's top-selling book on this subject is The Healing Land: The Bushmen and the Kalahari Desert. Kauffner (talk) 02:23, 5 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Eh? Have you even read the above discussion? So news outlets are using the term, so what? I can give you just as many sources from actual anthropologists which use San in preference to Bushman. Give me a rationale that actually discusses which term is preferred rather than just pointing out where it has been used. Your Oxford link also contradicts you
 * 1 a member of any of several aboriginal peoples of southern Africa, especially of the Kalahari Desert. Traditionally nomadic hunter-gatherers, many are now employed by farmers. Also called San.
 * 2 older term for San (the languages of these people).
 * Both it and the Merriam-Webster point out that the term is also used differently in Australia as raised by 70.24.251.71 earlier.-- O BSIDIAN  †  S OUL  07:59, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I gave a list of authoritative sources that use "Bushmen" preferentially. None of them include any notation to the effect that the term is derogatory. As for anthropology sources, there is this article in Science, as well as Anthropology and the Bushman (2007) by Alan Barnard. Andrew Bank's Bushmen in a Victorian world (2006) claims that "the term San means 'thief'". (p. 404). Do you have any information as to what is, "regarded as derogatory by members of the ethnic group"? Even if they really have issued a statement in support of "San", as one link claims, that's not quite the same thing. Kauffner (talk) 04:23, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The point is none of the previous sources you've given as rationale for the oppose actually prove anything. Yes, it's being used, but those articles are not exactly talking about ethnonyms. It's original research to infer that those terms are not derogatory because the New York Times use it.


 * That said, the latter sources you've given are more appropriate. And yes, we are all aware here that both terms are considered derogatory by one population or another. The question is which of the two is less derogatory? As for sources, I'm actually completely sure you've seen them, LOL. In searching for which peoples view San or Bushman as derogatory, you would really have no choice but to see the vast amount of sources that discuss this as well. It's pretty obvious in previous discussions above this section that the fact that the article is named "Bushmen" has been a point of contention for quite a long time. So is it time to actually listen and change something? -- O BSIDIAN  †  S OUL  09:01, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Their physical characteristics
There appears to be nothing in this article whatsoever about the physical characterstics of the Bushmen. They have been described as unusually short-statured, having "Mongoloid" traits including, if I recall, epicanthic folds on the eyes and a mongolian spot on newborn babies. The men reportedly have a semi-erect penis permanently and the women a genital apron, that is elongated labia I believe. None of this is discussed or mentioned. Really weird. People have bodies as well as culture. Julian


 * I thought maybe that was a joke when I just read it on a website. http://www.isds.duke.edu/~ervance/saemails.html Bushmen men are born with, live with, and die with, a semi-erection. Have I written about this before? It's called Qwxai-Qwxqha (pronounce it with lots of clicking sounds). Their penis is always semi-erect, and it's always depicted on them in their rock paintings. So *WHY* is that? I mean, there has to be some kind of reason behind it. --RyanTee82 (talk) 19:47, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Despite the .edu URL in the link above, the page is merely a collection of personal letters home, and such a travelogue does not constitute a reliable academic source. A quick search did not reveal any better references. Caution would be wise, as there sometimes seems to be a distinct link between interest in such physical characteristics and pseudo-scientific eugenics. | Here is a reference in the journal Nature to internal epicanthic folds in the eyelids of Central Kalahari Bushmen. Not many people refer to a 'genital apron' any more, most Bushman women seem to have extended labia minora. Supposed historical sketches of an individual on | this page. This organisation bears no responsibility for any and all racism, misogny, anti-progressive attitudes or faulty logic that you may experience from perusing the linked  website. Your clicking on the link above constitutes acceptance of these conditions.Centrepull (talk) 07:21, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * See steatopygia for the "apron". --Florian Blaschke (talk) 21:06, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Proposal to move - Is there a specific time between proposals?
I see that a proposal to move Bushman to San in March last 2012 came to nothing, as - somehow - the debate did not attract any attention (2 or 3 people). How long before a new proposal can be made? Rui &#39;&#39;Gabriel&#39;&#39; Correia (talk) 09:30, 4 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't think there's really a time limit as such, especially since no consensus was achieved. I have to ask, though, do you think it ever will be? Thefamouseccles (talk) 04:05, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

DNA genome question
Please read the following question without suspicion of racism, I am truly curious and would like to know more: The San people are said to have the oldest DNA in the genome. I understand this to mean the San's DNA has the least amount of mutations/adaptations/evolutions from the original "Adam DNA"; this begs the question, are they the least evolved/advanced people on Earth? If this is true then it is not necessarily a bad thing if you consider evolution as just a change for adaptation to circumstances and assume that the San's environment just has not changed that much since the time of "Adam" to force them to change significantly- if you're religious you could even say that they are the picture of God's original design for humans and all subsequent "tribes" of people are perversions or corroded images of this initial design. Unfortunately, some people will not view the San's unchanged and possibly "original human" DNA as the nice picture of purity that I just described, rather, some might assert that the San are therefore closer to our evolutionary ancestors, the monkeys (or whatever the scientific name might be of that monkey-like creature that we see in the Darwin diagram of ape to man) and attempt to validate their racist beliefs with this "scientific fact" (and possibly extrapolate out that other similar or related black people are inferior and so on). So, getting to my actual question, I am wondering if there are any documented arguments out there or groups that use this information to support racist views (Hitler would probably have loved to have this information). Also, I am wondering, if the San are the least changed (DNA) people then who are the most changed (DNA) people and do the most changed (DNA) people assert that they are the most advanced or superior in the human group? As as side note, I have heard "Black" or "African-American" people pridefully state that they are "pure" (usually if they are darker than another "black" person- possibly a counter argument to the "red-bone" thing) and I wondered if the persons saying this understood that this claim can certainly be a double-edged sword. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.3.191 (talk) 17:25, 17 February 2009 (UTC)


 * "the oldest DNA in the genome" must say: purity, with minimal combinations, an original race.

Look at it this way. England is the source of the English language, but we would not consider the language spoken there to be more primitive or unevolved than dialects in other countries. Additionally, most English dialects do not directly come from standard British English (in the same way that Hindi does not come from Sanskrit, and French does not come from Classical Latin). Lastly, British English did not simply stop evolving when other dialects went to other countries.

Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 18:04, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

The discussion of "Y-chromosomal Adam" in the first paragraph of the article is quite misleading. By definition, this man was the most recent male ancestor common to all human beings who happened to participate in the global genetic testing. (Presumably the male ancestor of all human beings alive today.) But this man was NOT the male ancestor of all human beings ever. (For example, if all people besides those of central Asian heritage died out, that might make Genghis Khan the Y-MCRA.) Now, whoever came up with the catchy but misleading name "Y-chromosomal Adam" for the Y-MRCA is partly to blame for the confusion, but let's at least use this commonly accepted definition of the term.

By the way, the poster of "Please read the following question..." has a few other misconceptions. I know of no evidence to suggest that the San people are genetically stagnant and immune from mutations and evolution, that they are somehow a genetic snapshot of 'how people used to be'. To use the analogy of a family tree, they are not necessarily closer to the root than other groups, they just happen to have fewer branchings between them and the root.

You might argue that African ancestries are somehow 'genetically superior' to other ancestries in that Africa has enormously more genetic diversity and thus a greater chance of having some members survive a cataclysmic plague or the like. But I suspect that human nature and intercontinental air travel will shortly (at least on the cosmic scale) spread that diversity around the world.

Perhaps to clear up another of the poster's misconceptions: Geneticists are not claiming that apes are closer than humans to the root of all primates. They are just another branch. Apes evolved to be good at flinging poo at zoo visitors; humans evolved to be good at producing politicians; they're just different directions.

The way I look at it is as follows: Genetic studies suggest that we can think of the San people as the 'original Africans' but it goes much deeper than that - the science is saying that everyone alive today can be directly traced back to the hunter-gatherer people of the Kalahari (2,000 generations ago). It means the only human creatures that survived the last ice age were these guys from the Kalahari. And that's also you and me!!! That is an astonishing statement & takes a lot of getting used to. If it is true then why isnt the whole of the Kalahari a world heritage site & why dont we go on holiday & try to live like they do - like families goto disney world? This claim is as socially & culturally significant as Darwin's origin of species a hundred years ago. Is this taught in schools these days? For more on this angle check out National Geographic's Genographic project. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Citizenclive (talk • contribs) 20:06, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

--74.248.228.7 (talk) 06:28, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

New notion
State if he or she support or strongly oppose changing the article from Bushmen to San people.
 * Create a proper template for the rename so we can Support or Oppose. etc. I think there is a template for purposed moves and renames. --Inayity (talk) 15:16, 13 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Not sure how to. If you may, or could perhaps, create a proper template for the rename so we can Support or Oppose. Vrijburger (talk) 15:21, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I dont know either, maybe they stopped doing it. You could put a notice on the article main page that We suggest renaming. Template:Renaming--Inayity (talk) 15:23, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Rename
From this derogatory, European & Bantu colonial, ugly vitriol, ahistorical offensive name Bushmen to "Indigenous Southern Africans" which is parallel to Indigenous Australians. As usual practise, state if he or she support or disapprove of the name change proposal for this article. Considering to the discourse above, this name change antithesis to what is said. Hendrik Biebouw (talk) 07:59, 12 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Strongly oppose because this proposal is simply a proxy for pushing the POV that the Bantu peoples are colonizers. (I would support a move to San people.) - htonl (talk) 12:58, 13 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I disagree. The deluge ahistoricism here. It is in fact your point of view asserting that those of the Bantu ilk is indigenous to Southern Africa. By proclaiming or counter factually propagating that the Bantu ilk are indigenous, which it is not, your are omitting that the Khoisan never existed? Are your supporting this notion? Those who are in power write history. The National Party did, now it's either the Democratic Alliance or the African National Congress asserting what is what without consent of the complexity of historical implication of colonialism, imperialism, tribalism etc. Ask yourself, does our constitution recognise the Khoisan as the first inhabitants of Southern Africa? Or does our constitution recognise Khoisan languages? A dire no. Vrijburger (talk) 13:45, 13 October 2013 (UTC)


 * What does this have to do with the rename? per WP:NOTSOAPBOX. --Inayity (talk) 13:57, 13 October 2013 (UTC)


 * POV of another editor. I rebutted his POV. No relevancy to you. As you were. Vrijburger (talk) 15:03, 13 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment: it should be noted that User:Roland Postma/Hendrik Biebouw is the same person as User:Vrijburger. - htonl (talk) 14:18, 13 October 2013 (UTC)


 * And? Vrijburger (talk) 14:43, 13 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Just making it clear to anyone else reading this discussion, otherwise they might think you were two different people. - htonl (talk) 17:45, 13 October 2013 (UTC)


 * comment I agree with the above comment. But we should rename it, but not to that funny construction, which is problematical per the above remark. But the term Bushmen is really off key considering this is 2013 and the era of plurality and progressive scholarship. --Inayity (talk) 13:12, 13 October 2013 (UTC)


 * There are non-San/Bushmen indigenous groups in South Africa, so those two topics are not identical. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:57, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Move
This should be moved to San people, just like Khoi people isn't at Hottentot. Also, San people is the preferred version nowadays in academics.-- Seonookim  (What I've done so far) (I'm busy here) (Tell me your requests) 06:16, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Also, 'Bushmen' may be offensive.-- Seonookim  (What I've done so far) (I'm busy here) (Tell me your requests) 06:17, 25 June 2013 (UTC)-- Seonookim  (What I've done so far) (I'm busy here) (Tell me your requests) 06:17, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

From the very article:

The different San language groups of Namibia met in late 1996 and agreed to allow the general term San to designate them externally.[5] This term was historically applied by their ethnic relatives and historic rivals, the Khoikhoi. This term means outsider in the Nama language, and was derogatory because it distinguished the Bushmen from what the Khoikhoi called themselves, namely, the First People.[4] Western anthropologists adopted San extensively in the 1970s, where it remains preferred in academic circles. The term Bushmen is widely used, but opinions vary on whether it is appropriate because it is sometimes viewed as pejorative.[6][7]

In South Africa, the term San has become favored in official contexts, and is included in the blazon of the new national coat-of-arms; Bushman is considered derogatory by many South Africans, regardless of their race.[8][9][10]

Shouldn't the article naming actually agree with what the article says? Also, it seems the San themselves and South Africa call them San.-- Seonookim  (What I've done so far) (I'm busy here) (Tell me your requests) 06:25, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The article should be moved, the term Bushmen is racist. It is like having an article Called Negro for African American--Inayity (talk) 09:57, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * actually its more complicated than that because some groups call themselves bushmen and find San (which is also an exonym) offensive. In academics it is also about 50/50.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 12:09, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You will always find people clinging to terms. Most in South Africa (where I am) reject the term, in government and popular circles it is considered offensive. Clearly the more progressive option is not Bushman, just like African American and Inuit.--Inayity (talk) 13:21, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Inuit is also complicated as for example Alaskan people prefer Eskimo as the inclusive term whereas in Canada it is rejected as racist. I will try to find some sources that explicitly describe the San/Bushman/Khoe naming debate.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 13:55, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * See ref The Third Edition of The Dobe Ju/'hoansi by Richard B. Lee)--Inayity (talk) 17:47, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

This has come up again with Bushman religion. For me it feels a weird to use a word like "bushman", but that's for the communities to decide. Either term would pass COMMONNAME. What the South African govt decides is not particularly relevant; we have claims here that both terms are considered pejorative, so which is the lesser evil, assuming they actually are pejorative at all? Namibia or Botswana might be a better source than South Africa. — kwami (talk) 08:14, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I think you have been here long enough to know -your rationale =/= our rationale. And hence why we discuss things before doing them. Already I have reverted your changes which means it has NOT been agreed. Your soln is to engage in an edit war. Let us see what Wikipedia policy says on the issue of solo moves of a page? WP:RM/CM. I have never ask that everyone agree with me, but i would respect if they just stick to the rules--Inayity (talk) 09:58, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The move request above was closed as 'no consensus', which means we're at 'Bushman' for the time being. — kwami (talk) 07:52, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Sources on name
I have started compiling some reliable sources about terminology per se at Bushmen so we can make a more informed decision about the name of the article.

A Google search on The Namibian newspaper website shows they use "San" or "San people", except for one instance of "San Bushmen". Helen Online  07:33, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

I am fairly sure this article in The Independent used this Wikipedia article for a source (sadly), as that wording was here and I could not find that interpretation anywhere else including the source cited here (I changed it to reflect the facts in the source). Helen Online  07:55, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Individual group names
I partially reverted an unexplained bold edit by Kwamikagami, as we should use established WP:ENGLISH names for individual groups and listing the "Khoi" group is confusing and unsourced. I left "Naro" in per source and added "Khwe" per source and established English name usage. Helen Online  07:36, 15 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Khwe is Khoi. The latter spelling is obviously more common.  As for it being confusing, isn't that a good reason to clarify?  — kwami (talk) 07:38, 15 January 2014 (UTC)


 * The Khwe language article says "Khwe" is the preferred spelling. There is no mention of "Khoi" in the article, only in the Khoikhoi article. How have you clarified anything? Helen  Online  07:41, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Then you shouldn't change the preferred spellings "Gǀui" and "Gǁana". We state that the San prefer to be called by their endonyms, so it's reasonable to list them, or their English variants, isn't it?  We don't even list the actual San, the Haiǁom. I've found another ref, which is a bit more inclusive (esp. for the San of Botswana), and will add a fn that the endonym "Khoi" is used for various peoples.  The reason "Khoikhoi" ("real people") is used is to distinguish them from the Khoi (people) who are San (thieves).  BTW, old refs say the Haiǁom would call the Korana "San", just as the Korana called the Haiǁom "San", as they considered the Korana to be thieves.  — kwami (talk) 07:55, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I was going by what their Wikipedia article is called (Gana and Gwi bushmen) (if it is incorrect, it should be addressed via the proper Wikipedia channels) and an English Google search on Gana/Gwi versus Gllana/Glwi. Helen  Online  09:11, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
 * A Gsearch is difficult because of the huge number of orthographic variants for clicks, many of which are transparent to the search engine (they're dismissed as punctuation). I've never seen a source that leaves out the clicks, but that might just be the circles I travel in. — kwami (talk) 19:41, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Just a side note,if I am allowed. I think the "real" meaning might be Men of Men. Which has been made gender neutral in our PC times to Real people or people of people as opposed to The real men among men. men of menref--Inayity (talk) 17:02, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know the grammar: the gender, whether it's reduplicated, etc., though our Khoekhoe article gives khoe-i (pl. khoen) as an example of neuter gender. But the "real" comes in with the translation, as "men of men" (or "men-men") doesn't have any meaning in English.  — kwami (talk) 19:41, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't want to get sidetracked on the group names spelling issue, but came across a 2005 report from Botswana which may be useful for anyone working on this aspect of Wikipedia. It includes this recommendation: "Henceforth, the language will be known as Khwedam and the people are known as Khwe. Work on the Khwedam language will respect the diversity of the language and the identity of the people, giving particular recognition to the ||Anikhwe language variety. NB: The old spelling Kxoe and Kxoedam is inappropriate and does not represent the new integrated spelling system." Helen Online  07:33, 16 January 2014 (UTC)