Talk:Sandra Roelofs

Fluency in Georgian?
Can someone supply reliable sources for the assertion that Ms. Roelofs speaks "fluent" Georgian? Given the complexity of the language and the fact that she is not a native speaker, this seems to me to be an unusual claim requiring significant evidence. Richwales (talk) 19:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Sandra is indeed fluent in Georgian. She's been living in Georgia since 1995, and has learnt it. Her official biography reads: "Besides her native tongue Ms. Roelofs is proficient in French, English, German, Russian and Georgian, learning a regional language in Georgia: Mingrelian." --KoberTalk 19:21, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * An "official biography" could be POV. Can we find any additional, independent sources confirming this claim?


 * Not that this would be citable as a source, but: You, Kober, appear to be from Georgia, so I'm assuming you're a native speaker of Georgian and have heard Ms. Roelofs speaking Georgian.  How would you, personally, rate her command of the various aspects of the language (vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation) — say, on a scale of 0 to 10, where 0 is "not at all" and 10 is "native or would easily pass for a native"?  And have you heard her in spontaneous conversation (interviews, press conferences, etc.), where she would need to speak without notes or other advance preparation?  Richwales (talk) 21:58, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I have heard her, and I would rate her command of the language at 8 or 9 on a 0-10 scale. How about rewording it to say "she is proficient in..." as stated in her biography? I think it is more NPOV because the word "proficient" does not necessarily imply that Sandra is fluent in all these languages, imo.--KoberTalk 06:56, 27 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry I didn't get back to this article for a long time. Yes, I think I agree that "proficient" (per her official biography) would be better than "fluent".  Or, given the possible POV nature of an official biography, perhaps it would be even better to say that she "is said to be proficient" in Georgian and the other listed languages.  The official biography could then be moved next to this statement, as a source for it.


 * I'd still feel more comfortable if another, more clearly NPOV source for her proficiency in Georgian could be found. A claim that a foreigner has achieved fluency or near-fluency in Georgian — despite having started studying it as an adult — still seems to me like an unusual claim calling for high-quality evidence.  I vaguely recall that the other source already in the article (from Caspian Business News) said something about her fluency in Georgian, but that article appears to have become a dead link.  Richwales (talk) 18:43, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Welcome back, Richwales. I just did a quick search and found a couple of sources that characterize her Georgian as “fluent”: U.S. embassy, Center for Strategic and International Studies (Washington, DC) (page 2), and finally this article by Prof. Donald Rayfield, himself a specialist of Georgian language and literature. I think that “proficient”/”said to be proficient”/”reported to be proficient”  is a good alternative, though.--KoberTalk 19:28, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi. Sorry I've been swamped with other things and haven't been back here for a while.


 * For what it might or might not be worth here, I found some streaming video files on www.gpb.ge with Sandra Roelofs speaking (in Georgian).


 * I don't speak Georgian at all, but it sounded to me like she was speaking at a normal conversational speed (same as the native speakers in the videos); without any hesitation, grasping for words, stumbling over sounds, stopping to correct herself, etc.; and with a similar prosody to that of the native speakers (strongly syllable-timed rhythm, narrow pitch range, and very little variation in stress). She definitely did not sound to me like a Dutch person speaking with a foreign accent.


 * Since I don't speak the language myself, of course, I'm not in a position to say whether her grammar is correct, or whether she pronounces all the sounds correctly (especially when it comes to sound distinctions that don't exist in the other languages she speaks, such as თ vs. ტ, or ქ vs. კ).


 * My impression is that what she's accomplished is not a trivial feat by any means. However, since she appears to have studied several languages in her youth, what she's evidently managed to do with Georgian is not completely out of the question.  In addition to having a highly developed knack for languages, I would assume she's had a lot of intensive tutoring, and (for PR purposes if nothing else) has been very strongly motivated to master the language of her adopted country.


 * I still think it might be just a bit better to say that she is "reported to be fluent" in Georgian, with inclusion of the two three sources which Kober gave. That would, in my opinion, make the article sound a bit more "encyclopedic".  Comments, anyone?  Richwales (talk) 07:21, 24 July 2008 (UTC) Richwales (talk) 14:51, 24 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually "fluent" is better than "proficient" - we can see that she is fluent in the language, but except if we ourselves were proficient in Georgian, we have no idea if she really has gotten the hang of it. Fluency can be judged by an outsider - "without any hesitation, grasping for words, stumbling over sounds, stopping to correct herself, etc.; and with a similar prosody to that of the native speakers" is really what it's about. Near-native proficiency... let's just say I come across second-language speackers of English often enough who are quite fluent indeed but lacking in proficiency ("I wahnd to bekamm a schnitzel with pommes frittes and hunter sauce, and a lettuce, and a Pils and... no, sett is ohl!" is fluent enough but not very proficient). Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 22:28, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Listing "predecessor" in role as president's spouse??
The infobox currently lists (the late) Nanuli Shevardnadze as Roelofs' "predecessor" (presumably in her role as spouse of the President of Georgia). This sounds really weird to me, on account of the double-entendre of whether "predecessor" should mean she was the wife of the ex-president, or that she was the ex-wife of the current president. (!!) Is there a better, not-so-strange way to describe the connection between Nanuli Shevardnadze and Roelofs? Or might it be better simply to omit the "predecessor" item from the infobox altogether? Richwales (talk) 20:35, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


 * OK, since no one has spoken up regarding this point, I'm going to go ahead and remove the item in question from the infobox. If anyone objects and feels that Nanuli Shevardnadze should be listed as Sandra Roelofs' "predecessor" after all, I hope you'll come back here to the talk page and discuss the issue.  Richwales (talk) 21:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

История идеалистки
Рулофс — автор автобиографической книги «История Идеалистки» (2005). Приведем несколько цитат из этой книги: "Вот уже много лет эта страна (Грузия-А.П.) в миниатюрной форме в золоте висит у меня на шее. Этим я хочу показать, что меня волнует судьба этой страны." А вот как отдает Сандра себе отчет в трудностях, с которыми она столкнется на новой родине: "Мне придется бороться... в стране, где ... 2/3 живут за чертой бедности, где люди будут нам завидовать из-за нашего счастья, богатства или карьеры. Мы столкнемся с угрозами, шантажом и шпионажем." Похоже, Сандра боялась грузин больше, чем российских военных... Кроме того, Сандра пишет много интересного о жизни в Америке: "Миша и я осознавали, что в нашем доме и квартале много цветных, и старались закончить делать покупки до того, как стемнеет... хотя своим поведением не хочешь показать малейшего намека на расизм" А вот несколько штрихов из повседневной жизни в США "Была холодная зима...Много снега. Бездомные были более жалкими, чем когда-либо. К счастью, наша квартира хорошо отапливалась...На улице было минус 20. Бездомные заходили в рестораны и просили разрешить им за еду очистить порог ото льда, так что повсюду слышался стук металлических лопаточек. И чего только бедняги не придумывали, чтобы получить деньги! Но особенно бросалось в глаза их большое количество." Впрочем, в Штатах есть не только бездомные. Сандра описывает свои визиты к выходцам из Грузии: "Там было по меньшей мере 50 гостей, один одет красивее другого, все - очень шикарные люди, благополучные и эрудиты с весьма утонченными манерами...После всяких вкуснейших закусок, вроде красной рыбы на тостах и мини-сате, подошел момент, когда хозяйка сказала: «Кушать подано!» И мы перешли в великолепную комнату… где нам были поданы бесподобные блюда множеством слуг. ...У нас кружилось в голове от всех этих комнат в различных цветовых гаммах и стилях." Со свойственной этой идеалистке прямотой она утверждает "Мы знали, что наше пребывание в Америке - временное, и мы пытались выжать из него все, что только можно, что дало бы нам потом преимущество в Грузии." Мысли автора по поводу положения дел в Грузии не менее интересны. Вот как она описывает экономическое положение грузин: "Я называю это скорее уязвимостью, чем бедностью, ибо у среднего грузина есть крыша над головой, и он тем или иным способом может выжить... Отключение электричества в западных глазах кажется романтичным и позволяющим экономить. Просто переходишь на керосиновую лампу или свечи, или включаешь генератор..."

Думаю, вышеизложенного достаточно, чтобы составить представление об авторе... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.151.33.44 (talk) 19:20, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Anyone out there speak Russian? In order for the above material to be (possibly) useful, we'll need to have it in English.  Richwales (talk) 23:29, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

What's up with this constant use of "Sandra E. Roelofs" in this article
Elisabeth is her second name and not her Patronymic (her father is Eduard Roelofs (see here (if you can read Dutch!)))! Second names are not used much to address people in Wikipedia so why is it done here? Or is the “E” used as a Patronymic (since her fathers name starts with an “E” (lucky streak :))). — Mariah-Yulia (talk) 09:33, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

linguist
The leading sentence says she is a Dutch linguist, which might confuse the reader and make them assume she is best known for her works (if-any) in linguistics and she also happens to be a wife of ex-president of Georgia.--Dixtosa (talk) 12:38, 10 January 2014 (UTC)