Talk:Sankoré Madrasah

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Original research?
Certain assertions about the early years of this "university" do not appear to be reliable. I believe the article should be tagged for original research. -- Ghirla -трёп-  10:47, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * these aren't assertations or assumptions. i went throught a lot of trouble finding articles on this subject so the least you could do is read the sources posted below before making silly unfounded statements.  just cuz something seems unreliable due to you not having prior knowledge doesn't make it unreliable.  the only "original" research i did was turn on my computer Scott Free 00:31, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Although 2 years later, I agree with the comment that a number of items re the Sankore Mosque appear to be original research (per Wiki definition) as reliance on uquestionable sources. In particular, given my own reading in Islamic history, and knowledge of Islamic universities, it strikes me as immediately queer and suspect that the presentation resembles an Anglo Saxon university, etc. This appears largely to be Afrocentrism based on questionable sourcing. A pity given the Mosque has a real history. (collounsbury (talk) 12:22, 28 December 2008 (UTC))

Current status
The article covers the school during it's founding and golden age, but what happened to it after that? 220.253.8.29 02:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Strange chronology
Seems to me somebody knows virtually nuffink about chronology. How can the Sankoré date to 989 A. D., if Timbuktu dates back to the 11th century? Did the mosque come before the settlement? If the author of this nonsense reads the weblink "About Sankoré", he/she will find this year in the quotation from the Tarikh al-Fettakh, but it refers to 989 of Muslim chronology, and this transfers the date of foundation into the 15th century. Ever heard of 622 A. D. = beginning of Muslim chronology? If not, the person in question should leave his/her fingers off an article on Muslim history. 172.176.126.24 09:21, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

IN RESPONSE TO THE ABOVE REMARKS: The author was using some strange, arcane method of dating (I suspect it was based on some Islamic landmark date, rather than with regard to the Common Era/Anno Domini method of dating, in which this would be the year 2007, thus all his dates were like 600-700 years off. I found that very annoying and frankly stupid, so I took it out.KevinOKeeffe 23:24, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

chrono
timbuktu's been inhabited since at least the 900s and probably long before that. i'll check out the al-Fettakh doc, but Sankore was already oprating by 1350 so the document's definately wrong if it says that is when Sankore was built.Scott Free 13:49, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Women at Sankore
On the history page an anonymous contributor claims female students were unlikely at a 17th century Muslim university. I can agree with this, but I was writing about the period prior to 1591. But maybe it might be useful to add some details: The article about Sankore University, on which the main author of this article seems to heavily rely, explicitly says „that the intellectual freedom enjoyed in Western Universities was inspired from universities like Sankore and Qurtuba (Muslim Spain) universities“. (http://www.muslimheritage.com/topics/default.cfm?ArticleID=371) This is not surprising, if we are to believe Dr Abd al-Kader Haidara, curator of the Mamma Haidara Library at Timbuktu, a leading institution dedicated to the conservation of Muslim manuscripts. He says that many documents dating back to the time before 1591 cover topics such as women’s rights. (http://www.altmuslim.com/perm.php?id=1908_0_25_0_M - Unearthing The Lost Literary Heritage Of West Africa) We have to keep in mind that no European scholar dared to think about such topics before the end of the 19th century and that women demanding equal rights in the name of liberty were decapitated during the French Revolution in the name of this very political ideal. In contrast to this women among the Massufa Berbers (Tuareg) were entitled to many liberties according to Ibn Battuta. In their traditional culture the female portion of the people is the keeper of old knowledge including the traditonal scripture (tifinagh). As the contributors to Ivan Van Sertima’s book about „The Golden Age of the Moor“ explicitly state, Moorish – i. e. Berber – society gave women the opportunity to „win new freedoms for themselves“, and this included the opportunity to work as „doctors and lawyers and professors“. (See Sertima, Golden Age of the Moor. New Brunswick – London 2006, p. 86 & p. 269) But where could they have acquired their knowledge and their skill unless they were admitted to Muslim universities like the ones mentioned above – in particular to Sankore, which was dominated by Massufa scholars like Ahmad Baba (called „al-Massufi“)? Frozenqueen 10:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Ivan Van Sertima
Part of this article's bibliography includes Ivan Van Sertima's work- and I can't really say that's all too reliable, considering he's such a prominent afrocentrist. Is John G. Jackson even a real historian?


 * I believe Van Sertima's work is very credible despite being labeled an afrocentrist. I haven't run across any good arguments against his findings.  Besides, most far-flung authors (the ones who belong in the looney bin) don't have access to reputable publishers (I.V. Sertima's been published under Random House).  As far as John G. Jackson, I don't know if he is actually a historian (still not sure what the qualifications are for such a title) but his book "Introduction to African Civilizations" is used at my alma mater as required text.  Let's not be hasty and remove or discount sources because they say things out of the norm.  None of the great pioneers in science or literature or philosophy were "mainstream" when they first arrived.Scott Free 01:50, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Afrocentric Bias/Propaganda
This article contains a lot of really flagrant Afrocentric propaganda/sloganeering that is almost painful to read. Its so biased as to be literally comical. I took out some of the more eggregious examples, but I'm sure there's more work to be done to raise this article to the level where it isn't a joke.KevinOKeeffe 22:49, 18 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Most folks that scream Afrocentrism are just ignorant. However, I'm inclined to partically agree with Mr. OKeefe.  I'm gonna have to keep a closer eye on this page if folks are gonna start putting POV and obviously slanderous statements against other cultures.  On another note, Okeefe seems a bit too zealous in his edits and removed some important stuff (number of manuscripts for instance).  I reverted the article back to a time when it was semi-BELIEVABLE and removed much of the junk Okeefe took out.  And by the way, Mr O'keefe, AH is not arcane.  It's the Islamic calendar and used in about 1/3 of the planet.  Do a bit of research before you yourself are relegated to being a "joke".  As for this article, it is obviously not one.

Scott Free 13:24, 19 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Hey Scottie, beam me up to your level of knowledge, e. g. on the number of manuscripts located at Timbuktu. Where do you have these ridiculous figures from? Where on earth should so many manuscripts - seven hundred thousand!!! - be stored? Is Umberto Eco's "Tower of the Books" anywhere near the banks of the Niger around? A year or so ago it used to be just 400,000 of the lot, and now they have almost doubled. Strange, very strange. I am quite familiar with the scholarly literature on Timbuktu - and there is not a single scholar (including John O. Hunwick, you ought to know!) who claims there are so many books and other manuscripts in the vicinity of Timbuktu. (If you happen to be a little familiar with the French language I recommend you to browse through a fairly recent book: GAUDIO, Attilio, ed. Les bibliothèques du désert: recherches et études sur un millénaire d'écrits: actes des colloques du CIRSS, 1995-2000. Paris 2002. This book compiled by librarians and custodians of archives from Western Africa including M. Haidara from Timbuktu does not quote any figure coming close to the one you claim to be correct.) As to your data, you have fallen victim to a - yes, I do use the fiendish word - Afrocentrist myth that is being cherished by dubious organizations like the Timbuktu Educational Foundation who spread a lot of nonsense which is not based on scholarly research, but on pure phantasy - including the stuff about the organization of learning at the "University of Timbuktu". So the nonsense that has been removed in the meantime was not really far away from all the myths that people are inclined to believe because it is balm for the souls of some people. Stay with the facts and you won't diminish the glory of Timbuktu's past. Spreading myths and lies about one's history in order to make one's nation and its past look greater was one of the greatest crimes that 19th century European historians committed. Africans and Black Americans should avoid repeating the sins of the past. So I, too, will keep an eye on what is going to be written on Sankoré and Timbuktu. By the way, I am happy to see that you have by now understood the subtle differences between Christian (or Common) chronology and its Muslim counterpart. (see above "Strange chrono"). Peter Kremer 08:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * ADDENDUM to the afore-said: There is still this blooming nonsense about students throwing turbans into the air and holding each other by their hands. Either this is just a hoax or we have to add: "... and their parents would press their polaroids to their eyes to catch the moment." Did the person who added this contribution want to create the im pression that there is a direct connection between the "glorious university of Timbuctu" and American colleges, esp. the ones where a certain kind of Black Studies is offered (that is where Van Sertima is hailed as the Galileo of our time, the unique scholar fighting against all odds?) I guess there is still quite a lot to be done about this article. If Clarke's non-sensical Afrocentrist rubbish is really a must-read at Scottie's college, then good-night darling! If you want to know what really went on at the "universities" of Timbuktu you will have to read the book by Elias Saad referred to in the bibliography of this article, but forget about this stupid comment which Mr. Hoax added, or read (if you can) the French book by Malian historian Mahmoud ZOUBER, Ahmad Baba de Tombouctou (1556-1627): Sa vie et son œuvre. Paris 1977. Peter Kremer 09:23, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm really quite amazed at how angry and snide your comments are, Mr. Kremer. Furthermore, I can't take anyone seriously who can't spell FANTASY.  I will go on and explain myself for the benefit of others who may believe the attacks you have made against me.


 * First, I'd like to address the manuscript issue. I have never claimed that there were 700,000 manuscripts there or any specific number.  I only put the information back, because there was a reference for it.  You say you are familiar with Timbuktu and it's "so-called university" (love how people like denigrate learning institutions).  Still, you haven't referenced any books yourself for any of your specific claims.  I don't know how many manuscripts were there, but this isn't original research.  Maybe you should go to Timbuktu yourself and count them and stop bugging us with your rediculous statements.  I am not a "victim of Afrocentrism" as you claim.  Your presumptions only show how uninformed you really are.  You obviously have come to this forum with pre-concieved notions on what the people of that area and time are capable.
 * On ethnic bias, in general... I can't speak for the thousands of other black researchers (assuming you'd be so kind as to grant us such a title, oh enlightened one).  But I like the truth, and I'm not here to give credit to anyone for anything they aren't related to.
 * I don't know where the turban thing came from. Whoever put it there needs to reference it.  It sounded odd to me too, but once again that doesn't mean it didn't happen.  Keep an open mind, and you might learn something.
 * My data is pretty much perfect. I'd love for you to find an edit I made and hit me back on exactly how it's false.  I mean that literally, because I don't want falsehoods floating around anymore than you do.  I, nor my people as a whole, don't need a "balm for their souls" anymore than we need approval from you.  If White people would tell the truth about research in the first place, there wouldn't be such a debate today.
 * Lastly, I am a bit familiar with French. I'd be happy to take a look at the document you talked about.  I translated a 20-somthing page manuscript on the Mali Empire and used it heavily for that page.  And i reverted your edits on Abubakari II.  What you put was garbage.  Plain and simple.
 * Oh and by the way, Good night darlin`. I graduated from the University of Texas at Arlington. Same college that graduated General Tommy Franks.  How many colleges do you own or teach at?  Oh, don't worry. I'll wait (lol).Scott Free 16:10, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Wow, the Eurocentric nonsense has seemingly grown in intensity, but I don't feel that it is nothing that can't be handled. Actually, the number is approximate and maybe even a bit speculative, but this in fact seems to be a number often cited by mainstream references. For example, this number is cited by the National Geographic society, the timbuktu foundation, president of the Timbuktu Heritage Institute(Issa Mohamed), Professor Ousmane Kane, the Timbuktu Manuscripts Project(who is in conjunction with UNESCO), and by like everyone else except you. If there was a stirring controversy over the validity of this figure, it seems extremely suspect that you'd aggressively refer to such claims as "lies", you'd be calling all of these mainstream sources liars simply because their numbers don't agree with what you felt was capable while at the same time not recognizing it as a controversy or conflict of data.

As far as the organization and learning at the University of Sankore being fabricated, again, you are simply pleading to Eurocentric suspicion and ignorance, even though this is established, mainstream view..

Quote:
 * ''Scholars from all over the Islamic world came to the University of Sankore (as well as the city's over 180 madersas) where courses as varied as theology, Islamic law, rhetoric, and literature were taught. The university was housed in the Sankore Mosque built with a remarkably large pyramidal mihrab in the declining years of the Mali Empire. The university, one of the first in Africa, became so famous that scholars came to it from all over the Muslim world. At this period in African history, the University of Sankore was the educational capital of the western Sudan, where 25,000 students studied a rigorous academic program.


 * ''In the book, Timbuctoo the Mysterious, French author Felix Dubois describes the intellectual accomplishments of the ancient African university: "The scholars of Timbuctoo yielded in nothing, to the saints in the sojourns in the foreign universities of Fez, Tunis, and Cairo. They astounded the most learned men of Islam by their erudition. That these Negroes were on a level with the Arabian savants is proved by the fact that they were installed as professors in Morocco and Egypt. In contrast to this, we find that Arabs were not always equal to the requirements of Sankore." 2 As a center of intellectual achievement, Timbuktu earned a place next to Cairo and other leading North African cities.

Source

^The best that you can do is present alternative sources however, there is no established controversy and to suggest so, while referring to particular views that seem to threaten your very own world view as "lies", indeed has to be rooted in bias as innate intelligence, research and/or rationality would not lead anyone to make such pronouncements. No one is concerned with easing the soul of certain groups, but it is extremely and I mean vitally important that one counter the repression, distortion and obvious bias as it concerns the history of any people, you sir, are a victim of all of the above and can therefore be disregarded as a trouble maker, unless of course you have any knowledgeable insight, of which you haven't provided so far. Still waiting. Socio-political accusations and rants will be disregarded.Taharqa 02:20, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Revert drastic edits
At Soman.. Please discuss before making such hasty edits as a lot of work has been done subsequent to your revision.Taharqa 20:17, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Edit to Encyclo type text
Based on the long standing objections to the extent text, the fact that the extent text at time of editing (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sankore_Madrasah&oldid=261576710) was largely based on a non scholarly & promotional source without any clear citations, and that advanced claims that seemed largely based on modern concerns rather than on scholarship, I edited the entry down to more fundamental facts. I note that the French language entry (with editors familiar with the more abundant Fr. lang. primary scholarship in this area) is substantially more modest in its claims. At time of editing the source pages were not available, but the text (esp. re degrees) seemed to be a light edit off of said page, and the same pages seem to have been entirely unscholarly (in comparing with information on other contemporary Islamic universities, re structure -never mind the not yet existant idea of degrees). Further revisions should focus on scholarly fundamentals and confirmed understanding. (collounsbury (talk) 21:01, 10 January 2009 (UTC))