Talk:Santiago Ramón y Cajal

Peacock & Essay-like Templates

 * I've noticed that this article seems to include phrases that promote the subject manner in a biased way (i.e. "so original and influential that he is considered by many to be the greatest neuroscientist of all time"). Regardless of the mans accomplishments: Statements like the one above are non-encyclopedic and are, in fact, "essay-like".

Furthermore: I have noticed that the biographical section hasn't a single reference. bwmcmaste (talk) 15:28, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Talk
I think his last name is Ramón y Cajal, not Cajal as the article has. At least, that's the way Kandel et al. (2000) uses it. Anyone know?

(Kandel E.R., Schwartz, J.H., Jessell, T.M., Principles of Neural Science, 4th ed. McGraw-Hill, New York (2000).)

delldot | talk 15:55, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

i don,t agree i think his last name is y Cajal and Ramón is his middle name. a 7th grad student


 * Actually, since I wrote this, I've seen it both ways, mostly just Cajal. So you're probably right.  delldot | talk 19:53, 9 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Ramón y Cajal is his last name. In many Spanish speaking countries people have 2 last names. I think people use Cajal as shorthand, but in reality should be Ramón y Cajal. I think since both are in wide usage, both are acceptable. Nrets 22:13, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

-- His first name is "Santiago". His father's family name is "Ramón", and his mother's family name is "Cajal", so according to Spanish surname rules his surnames are "Ramón (y) Cajal". Spanish citizens may have one or two names, which are not considered as a first and a second name but as a compound name (e.g., "Roberto Alejandro", "María Luisa" or "José María"). However, in any case, they must have two surnames. Until some years ago, it was compulsory that the first surname was the first surname of the father, and the second surname was the first surname of the mother, but the actual law allows the first surname of the mother to be the first one of the son (and then the second surname of the father the first of the son). (This was written by a Spanish guy wity a compound name)


 * What the person above said. :) My name is Daniel Demaret y Bowen :) DanielDemaret 19:20, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not certain that this is important, but I have a copy of his 'Advice for a Young Investigator', which includes the Preface to each edition published, and in the second edition he quotes one of the professors at the University of Zaragoza using the name Cajal ("Who is Cajal to dare challenge the work of scholars?"), and I'm suspicious that, if a Spanish academic during the era that Cajal was still practicing science referred to him as 'Cajal', to which Cajal offered no commentary as to whether the usage was incorrect, the name 'Cajal' was almost certainly the correct one, or at least the one he chose to use. 18:00, 10 May 2015 UTC — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.102.98.182 (talk)

I have removed the following section from the article, since it is both undue and violates the no original research policy (since it cites no external source to verify that the subjects name is "often misstated" or that there is a naming controversy outside wikipedia). "Names often misstated Santiago Ramón y Cajal is often called Cajal despite the fact that Ramón was his paternal surname and his maternal surname was Cajal. Thus, for example, the greatest living neuroscientific expert on Ramón y Cajal, the Spaniard Javier DeFelipe, titled his review of Cajal's scientific work in Nature Reviews Neuroscience "Brain plasticity and mental processes: Cajal again." (Vol 7, issue 10, pp 811–817). Even in Spain (where this naming convention is the norm and it would be expected that he be referred to as "Ramón"), when Ramón y Cajal's work is referred to, there is a preference for his mother's surname, Cajal, perhaps because "Ramón" is also a forename, or simply because Cajal is a less frequent surname, what is common practice for personalities. Thus, many texts say for example, "escuela cajaliana" (Cajal's school) or "Cajal's disciples." It should, however, be noted that some of Cajal's own articles were published under the name "S. R. Cajal", even in his own journal (e.g., Algunas consideraciones sobre la mesoglia de Robertson y Rio-Hortega. Trabajos del Laboratorio de Investigaciones Biológicas de la Universidad de Madrid 18 (1920): 109-127). Further, his European contemporaries generally referred to him as 'Cajal' (see, for example, reviews in Zeitschrift für die gesamte Neurologie und Psychiatrie)."

I am copying the lengthy section here for future record, in case a reliable source on the subject is found and some of this material can be properly restored. Even then though, in my opinion, the matter would be best covered in a short footnote of the form "Ramon and Cajal are the paternal and maternal surnames of Santiago Ramón y Cajal, who is often referred to as simply Cajal in medical literature" (assuming that is true and verifiable), instead of discussing it in terms of which name is correct/incorrect. Abecedare (talk) 15:12, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

The section on religious and political views seems like it was an ideological insert by someone, and is out of place. That he used the term soul without a shame is directly taken from the title of an article without any explanation what it means, and there's no explanation given for him later coming to believe in God. This assertion is too commonplace and is probably ideological. It is unlikely him being a scientist for him to grow a belief in a god. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.11.64.112 (talk) 07:16, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Clean-up template
The article needs some rewriting for various reasons and in various ways; aside from some of the style and formatting being ut of keeping with the MoS, some of the sections are written in staccato style, one short sentence after another, and there's some odd syntax. I'm also unsure about the gallery. --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 20:30, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I didn't mean to jump the gun on the removal of the clean-up tag Mel, sorry about that. I should have left a notice here before I did that. What do you think of the article as it stands now? S  e  miconscious  •  talk  23:25, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... I'll take a stab at some rewriting, but I vote strongly in favor of the gallery. These images are the reason this man won the Nobel Prize: they define his professional work and are considered to be some of the finest drawings in neurohistology. S  e  miconscious  •  talk  21:48, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The images in the gallery can (should?) be moved to the commons. Galleries are actively encouraged at the commons and this article can easily be linked to such a gallery using the template.   JeremyA 21:54, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but that little "this article has related media on commons" box is so inconspicuous. If people don't think the gallery should be on this page, then so be it, but I feel it adds significantly to the aesthetics and comprehension of the article by having it displayed as-is. S  e  miconscious  •  talk  22:03, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I have no strong feelings either way about the gallery. The public domain images would be a good addition to the commons anyway though. On the subject of the images in this article, I notice that Image:Cajal.gif is marked as 'Fair Use' without a fair use justification. I think that fair use is justified in this article, but the image is also used in Scientist, where it probably does not qualify as fair use. Also, Image:Cajal-mi.jpg, which is already on the commons is marked as PD because Cajal died in 1934--however copyright of photos is determined by the lifespan of the photographer not the subject so it is possible that this photo isn't actually PD. JeremyA 22:13, 28 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I strongly vote for keeping the gallery too. This is the most famous aspect of Cajal's work, plus the figure legends illustrate the diversity of neural structures that he worked on. Nrets 22:09, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

It's not a matter of voting, but of reaching consensus through discussion. Thus, you need to make your case, and explain why you disagree with the cases made by others. --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 22:19, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

In every book on Neurology I have ever read, his stained images are present, even when there is no picture of Santiago. They are the reason we know about neurology. Keep them. DanielDemaret 19:18, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

"Vacation Stories" edit
I came to this page trying to remember if Ramón y Cajal was the author of the "Vacation Stories". When wikipedia didn't mention his science fiction, I had to look it up elsewhere. I added the sentence about the "Stories" so that anyone else coming to this article for information about his contribution to sci-fi rather than his contributions to neurology will be able to find it.

Rinne na dTrosc 15:44, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

REAL NAME
Hello, I am a spanish student and I can assure you his real name is Santiago, his last name is: Ramón y Cajal, in fact, we use the term "Cajal" in order to make his name shorter.

Ok, let's clear this name thing up one more time. Spaniards have the same number of names as people of English (or other European descent). They have a first name, sometimes a middle name, and their father's last name as their legal last name. Traditionally, Spaniards will append their mother's maiden name after their father's last name. Thus, if your name is Billy Ray, and your father's last name is Jones, you are Billy Ray Jones. If you follow the Spanish tradition, and your mother's maiden name is Smith, your formal name would be Billy Ray Jones Smith. Legally, your last name is Jones. If you wanted to shorten your name in colloquial usage, you would be called simply Billy Jones. Similarly, in Spanish, if your name is Antonio Ramon Sanchez Rodriguez, and you are using the short form in colloquial speech, you would be known as Antonio Sanchez. In formal usage, for example, your college diploma, your full name would be spelled out. The letter "y" joining two last names is simply the Spanish equivalent of "and." Simple, isn't it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cd195 (talk • contribs) 20:56, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

No, you are not right, I'm Spanish, our naming system is a little bit different from the English one.

- First: Women don't have maiden in Spain name due to a simple reason: Women don't lose their surname with the marriage.

- We have one or two names, and two surnames, the first one comes from your father and the second one comes from your mother. Example: Juan García Sanchez and María Aguirre Lopez have a daughter named Laura, then Laura will be Laura García Aguirre. But with our current laws the mother's surname could be the first one.

- Legally we have two surname, in your example (Billy Ray Jones Smith) Jones and Smith are both legally your surnames, in the same level. In all legal documents in spain (ID card, Driving License etc...) you can read Apellidos (surnames) in plural or "primer apellido" and "segundo apellido" (first surname and second surname). The same when you need to fill a formulary in spain, you'll find and space for your first surname and another one for your second surname.

- In a colloquial speech, Usually it's more used your first surname, but this is not always like this. For example Prime minister of spain is José Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, but people know him as Zapatero due to Rodriguez is a very common surname in Spain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.125.30.64 (talk) 18:00, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

You say "you are not right," but then you go on to repeat what I said. The issue of "maiden name" in Spain is a separate case which may or may not be relevant in any other country. The case of last names is exactly what I said and what you repeated. The father's last name is the legal last name. The complete legal name includes your mother's maiden name (Yes MAIDEN name, that is, the surname of her father). If you are going to shorten the name for convenience, you DO NOT, normally, even in Spain, use only the mother's last name, you use the first of the surnames, the father's last name. Because this practice is not followed in the US and other English-speaking countries, when a Spanish name is shortened for convenience, the writer or speaker will usually use (incorrectly) the name he sees physically as being last, which in Spanish naming conventions is the Mother's last name. Hence in the US, Santiago Ramon y Cajal is often called "Cajal," whereas he should be called "Ramon." And by the way, I'm Spanish also! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.239.2.104 (talk) 17:08, 12 July 2010 (UTC) <! -- Template:UnsignedIP -->

What references say
I am Spanish so I have taken a look at several websites in Spanish. It seems that the case of Ramón y Cajal is an expception to the way that we (Spanish people) have our surnames. As perfectly explained above we usually have two surnames, one coming from our father (most commonly the first) and the other from our mother, since women do not loose their surname at marriage. We don't add the conjuction "y" (and) between them. However here is the exception: I have found in several websites from the Spanish region of Cajal (Aragon) that his father was Justo Ramón and her mother Antonia Cajal.(For example: )

I am Spanish, too. You are wrong. We Spaniards all officially have that "y" in Spanish-speaking areas. Go and see your born certificate! It's simply that the vast majority of people don't use it (possibly even don't know that!, as yourself), and it has even become administrative practice not to use it. Although very rare nowadays, some people still use the "y", and it seems that it was more usual to do that in Cajal's times, and even today for a few people who want to show themselves as more important. Moreover, in fact the "i", with the same meaning (same pronounciation, as in bee) in Catalan-speaking areas is far more used still today, even in administrative documents. So, it would be perfectly correct to say "Ramón Cajal" (look below his photograph), only that "Ramón y Cajal" has became stablished in this particular case. Anyway, simply "Cajal" is by far the most usual practice to refer to him, and therefore I think it would be better to use just "Cajal" all along his wikipedia article. -JFG — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.55.114.79 (talk) 19:20, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

I have seen that in scientific works he signed as "Ramón y Cajal", but I do not know if before publishing them he signed as "Ramón Cajal". (This is a site with scanned images of all his articles, we could use it to look for better images). This is completely OR but many Spanish people nowadays sign in scientific articles combining their two surnames because the opposite is complicated to explain to a foreign journal. It may be the case of Santiago.

The earliest document that I have found where he signed as Ramón y Cajal is his doctorate work (equivalent to Phd in the US). I have not found any documents with the opposite signing

Bests.--Garrondo (talk) 08:45, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

You are wrong again! The “y” is NOT understood as being a part of Spanish names. Of course, it may be put in there, and be grammatically correct, because it just means “and.” But it is only customarily used in Catalan naming conventions. Remember Catalan is nothing but bad Spanish. In a real European language, it’s just not necessary. The problem is that Ramon y Cajal was a staggering intellect of world renown, and since few other countries, especially those of Anglo heritage, are knowledgeable about Spanish customs, he has simply been referred to as “Cajal,” due to unfamiliarity with non-Anglo names. To this day, some stains used in neurological preparations are called “Cajal stain” here in the US. Let’s not perpetuate the American’s ignorance. And, oh, yes, spare me the outrage about Catalan, I was just kidding!!98.162.136.248 (talk) 02:35, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Possible link to Santiago Ramon y Cajal items on “Himetop – The History of medicine topographical database”
I suggest that somebody, interested in this page, could insert an external link to the following page describing, with pictures, some Ramon y Cajal memories: http://himetop.wikidot.com/santiago-ramon-y-cajal

I don’t do it myself because I’m also an Administrator of this site (Himetop) and it could be a violation of the Wikipedia Conflict of Interest policy. Thanks for your attention.

Luca Borghi (talk) 16:52, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Aragon vs Navarra
Petilla de Aragón, despite its name, is not located in Aragon but in Navarre. However, Santiago Ramón y Cajal in spite of being Navarrese of birth is considered Aragonese, due to his early move to Aragon where he spent his childhood and youth, and where he eventually attended University of Saragossa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.219.103.21 (talk) 18:36, 1 June 2008 (UTC) For that reason, I changed his birthplace from Aragon to Navarre --Forloyo (talk) 10:53, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Ramón y Cajal attended the medical school of Zaragoza, from which he graduated in 1873.... and in 1883 he received his medical degree in Madrid.

Contradiction anyone?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.146.12.16 (talk) 11:29, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't think so -- the info is consistent with his Nobel prize biography. Apparently there were at least two possible degrees then, "licentiate" and "doctor": he became a "licentiate" in 1873 and a "doctor" in 1883. Looie496 (talk) 17:40, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Followup -- I've clarified the wording in the article. Looie496 (talk) 17:43, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Accomplishements Edit
I have reworked the section dealing with his accomplishments and theories. The previous version was both vague and inaccurate. Specifically I added his discovery of the growth cone, his support for the neuron theory and the existence of spines. I have also corrected the theory of nerve cell contact to give credit to Forel. Rambrown (talk) 20:27, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I have cleaned up the claim for his prescient synaptic plasticity model. Cajal did not recognize spines as the site of synaptic contact. His Croonian Lecture talks of elaborated growth of both dendritic and axonal extensions as a result of experience, but makes no either explicit or implicit claims or predictions about cell to cell contact. Indeed the entire section takes place in metaphor where the cortex is compared to a garden that may become richer with time. The synaptic plasticity interpretation is almost a century later and entirely post-hoc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.240.130.52 (talk) 02:36, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Featured image nomination
For those interested: I have performed a restoration of a high quality image of lead image and nominated it for FP at commons with the intention of also nominating it later in WP. Votes favouring or opposing the nomination and any kind of comments would be welcomed.--Garrondo (talk) 12:31, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Biography!
In this Biography section of his article, it starts off with a bad view on him. Rather than on focussing on his talent, we are given a whole paragraph on his anger problem that he had. It gives people the chance to question him on whether they like him because of his talent or dislike him because he had such a bad temper than often got out of control. Long story short, this type of information is irrelevant to his talent and the field that he worked in. There should be a fine line bettween private information (like the one given on the article) and personal information (relevant to his existence on the field of science). Another parrt that i found to be quiite broad was the last paragraph. it gives us a sense of accocmplishments that he had yet there is no further detail upon them. such detail as to what impact did he have upon all these schools in which he was a professor for or whatt he accomplished as being the director of the Museum. We are cut off short in that area in which is very important to know in his biography. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.93.41.108 (talk) 20:16, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

References in media
Santiago Ramón y Cajal drawings apear in several chapters of BBT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1x57bcgO_0 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.16.13.254 (talk) 21:35, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

BIG BANG THEORY
he was named in BIG BANG THEORY — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:908:191:5FA0:781F:694A:D7B8:8E32 (talk) 17:20, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

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