Talk:Sarbani

Subgroups of the Sarbans
The article needs to give a detailed list of subgroups of the Sarbans. Gringo300 10:42, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

19th century views
The views of Henry Walter Bellew may be interesting but we can't present them as fact. Even if they were presented as an official report to the government (not sure what document User:Mythbuster420 is referring to). For instance, "The Afghans nation class themselves as the descendants of Saraban through his two sons," comes from a work written in 1880, over 130 years ago, which can't represent what is though today. Worse, that misrepresents what Bellew actually wrote. He didn't write "The Afghans nation", he wrote "The Afghans Proper, the Bani Israil, as they call themselves in special distinction to all other divisions of the nation". That's quite different, and this article is not about the Bani Isra'il it is about the Sarbans. And that sentence is preceded by:

"The fictions of the Afghan genealogists and historians are absurd enough, and their facts wonderfully distorted ; but for the careful enquirer they have their value as guides to a right conclusion. Thus, from the Kais above-mentioned, whose own tribe was originally but an insignificant people as to numbers and power, the Afghan genealogists derive all the Pukhto-speaking peoples of Afghanistan, partly by direct descent, and partly by adoption on account of a similarity of language and social polity." Dougweller (talk) 11:19, 13 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I can't find any sources making Bellew's claim about Suryabans. Dougweller (talk) 12:15, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

ALso note that Bellew said in 1857: Kais married a daughter of Khalid bin Walld, and by her he had three sons born to him in the country of Ghor; viz. " Saraban," "Baton," and " Ghurghusht." Kais is said to have died at the age of 87, at Ghor, in the 41st year of the Mohammadan era, corresponding to the year 662, A.D.

From these three sons of Kais, the whole of the present existing tribes of Afghans trace their immediate descent in 277 tribes, or "khail." There are besides these 128 other khail, who, with the Afghans, are called " Pukhtun," but who have a separate origin assigned to them, as will be noticed hereafter. Of these 405 tribes of the Pukhtun nation, 105 khail have sprung from the eldest son Saraban, and are collectively called " Sarabanai." From Batan have sprung 77 khail, in two divisions, viz. " Batanai," comprising 25 khail, and " Mattl," consisting of 52 khail. These last are also known as " Ghilzai." From Ghurghusht have descended 223 khail, in two divisions, viz. " Ghurghushtai," 95 khail, and "Karalanai," 128 khail. This last comprises all the tribes of Pukhtuns who are not Afghans. Dougweller (talk) 13:06, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Use contemporary sources for these traditions
Eg |Saraban+++ancestor&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QtfTUquvGKfD7AbRiIGoBg&ved=0CE8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Afghan%20Sarban|Saraban%20%20%20ancestor&f=false Contemporary Society: Concept of tribal society. Minor note, stay away from anything published by Mirrors and forks/Ghi. Dougweller (talk) 12:25, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

What a mess
We also have "The name itself is similar (or identical) with the name of an historical tribe on Caucasus that was also named Sarbani" which seems original research. If you go to the link which is actually [{Serboi]], you see the same claim, plus "Pashtuns are believed to be of Scythian descent[12] while their language is classified as East Scythian[13]" See Pashto language. But the main point is we don't have reliable sources for this claim about the name. It should go. Dougweller (talk) 12:54, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Claims of Sarbani Relations to Suryabani
I removed the section relating the Sarbani to the Suryabani for a number of reasons: The article is a mess in general, and unfortunately there are still references to century old and outdated books, but I think the Suryabani link was one of the most obvious places to prune this article, especially as it contradicts other parts of the article which use more modern references.
 * The book "Afghanistan and the Afghans" is an old, outdated book in which the author makes basic mistakes about Afghans (such as saying that Durranis are Afghans, and the rest of the Pashtun tribes are not).
 * The second reference "A glossary of the tribes and castes of the Punjab and North-West frontier province," doesn't seem to mention either the Sarbani or Suryabani at all. I couldn't find either (the book is sorted alphabetically), and the reference did not cite any page number.
 * The claim is based on two legends (the legendary origins of Pashtuns and a probably legendary battle in the Mahabharata).
 * Whoever added those paragraphs seemed to have misunderstood portions of it (or just added in his own original research), as I could not find any connection between the sons of Sarbani and Rajput tribes.
 * As we now know that Pashtuns are primarily an Eastern Iranic people speaking an Eastern Iranic language, links to Indian tribes are unlikely.

I don't even think this theory belongs here as an alternative theory, but if someone wants to add it back in, it absolutely shouldn't be presented as anything other than an old fringe-theory. HappiDude (talk) 23:47, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

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Largest group?
The source didn't back that. It says:

"Observations Tribal confederacies are often myth-based relationship between tribes that behave in a shared ancient patriarch progenitor. Nonetheless, a tribe or a portion of it. may leave the old confederacy and join a new. if its interests so dictate There are, eg.. Ahmadzai tribes among the Sarban, Batan and Gharghast confederacies The populous Lodi (or Lodin) confederacy has a close association with the Ghilzai/GMp confederation For the past many centuries, however, it has maintained an independent identity and history ot its own. The tribes in the far northeastern regions of the Pashtun-inhabited areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan have been usually classified as independent from any traditional confederate association. This has been the standard practice by the British authors and researchers since the middle of the 19th century. The Pashtun tribes in the area, however, do not normally share this stance. The great Shmwari, Mohmand and the Safi tnbes are prime examples, as they associate themselves, respectively, with the Sarban' Abdali. Kartan and Gharghasht confederations All three were and are. however, listed in the British (and Pakistani) sources as being independent or members of the amorphous 'Northern Tribes' grouping. In the current journalistic literature, tribal confederacies are mislabeled, "super tribes ' This misnomer is inaccurate and should be avoided. Of great import is that the Ghitzai. being the fourth in demographe weight among the five Pashtun confederacies, have traditionally compensated for this numerical inferiority by the added warlikeness and forwardness The Afghan Communist regime as well as the Afghan Taliban were and are basicaly Ghitzai endeavors for domination of power in that country M. Izady" Apologies for any OCR errors. I can't identify where this came from. Doug Weller talk 19:03, 2 March 2019 (UTC)