Talk:Sayyid Qutb/Archive 3

Dispute over Qutb influence of bin Laden
Editor Im502 has changed  "According to a number of Western observers, Qutb's ideas and philosophy helped shape jihadist groups such as Al Qaeda." to  "to two neo-conservative observers, Qutb's ideas and philosophy helped shape groups such as Al Qaeda."  Explaining in edit summary: ''Robert Graham Irwin is a conservative and works for Rupert Murdoch. Paul Berman is the philosopher of "liberal hawks".''  Before the edit attacks this summer there were four citations backing up the original sentence. I restored them, someone removed two of them again.

The idea that Qutb inspired bin Laden is pretty much generally excepted in the real world. See this. --BoogaLouie (talk) 15:10, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * A notion heavily favored by the anti-Qutbists, just see most of the links you used. In the real world, those very anti-Qutbists all have or have had political agendas, they are not objective. It's no wonder in this current political climate that such things happen, but as this talk page has shown, many things written are simply false, red herrings, or loosely selected segments made to appear a certain way. Dontkillmeimanoob (talk) 17:53, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Is PBS a neocon organ? Do you have any evidence that the belief that Qutb inspired bin Laden is restricted to neo-conservatives or any narrow viewpoint? If so provide it. --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:42, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I said it was heavily favored, and I cited the links as evidence. Someone even pointed out their names and where they worked, making the neocon link more obvious. No shock, they tend to be the only ones who exploit such topics anyway. It's like japanese manga, you've not gonna find the average person dwelling in that stuff. All the more reason to establish the biases of every link and every source. I use Wikipedia and care what happens in it, it's best that all cards are put on the table.Dontkillmeimanoob (talk) 20:01, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * What are you talking about? What "links as evidence" are you "citing"? What do you mean "pointed out their names and where they worked, making the neocon link more obvious"? I've got seven sources.  six sources. Are they all neocons? or from a narrow group? --BoogaLouie (talk) 23:32, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, you only have 6, citing the same one twice. But hey, 7 is a magic number so I don't blame you. Let's dig deeper.


 * OK, my mistake, there are only six there. It's not an exhaustive list. --BoogaLouie (talk) 15:53, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Robert Irwin ==> Rupert Murdoch
 * Paul Berman ==> Hawk, wrote the case for Iraq. Believes anti-zionism is connected to anti-semitism. Total chicken hawk.
 * David Von Drehle ==> Aspiring historian I hear. To be fair, can't tell much about him except to things. His take on history is laughable. In the article you cited, he actually refers to Nasser's offer to Qutb as a "mercy", forgetting to mention that it was an offer to betray the egyptian people. Also, and this explains quite a bit, he took something Qutb wrote about haircuts literally, not realizing Qutb was making a joke of the matter.
 * Out of the Shadows: GAOPR. The report was headed by two people. Frank Gillufo & Gregory Saathoff. The former headed Homeland Security, appointed by George Bush (need I say more, GB only appointed good lapdogs). The George Washington UniversityThinktank he co-heads does policy and research on national security matters. Oh, and he was head advisor to Tom Ridge. As for Saathoff, I can't find much on his politics. Or I should say, I have no idea where he leans.
 * Trevor Stanley ==> Conservative blooger, not blogging anymore. Did work for organization that don't seem to exist any longer


 * Isn't this a bit guilt by association? And confusion of cause and effect? Murdoch is a big publisher. Just because you work with him doesn't mean you are a neocon or have some other a narrow viewpoint. Are you sure everyone appointed during the Bush adiministration was tainted?


 * Peter Bergen ==> lol, I can tell from the link that you typed the words "Bin Laden" and "Qutb" to do a search on google, coz they're highlighted all over. But check out what I found in Peter Bergen's book on page 20,


 * Yes, I did do that search ... but why does it make the source invalid? --BoogaLouie (talk) 15:52, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

and I quote:
 * When Qutb was executed, everybody was sad, even people who didn't agree with him. People had suffered so much from socialism under [Egyptian Dictator Gamal]] Nasser's rule. Qutb rejected socialism and he rejected dictatorship. It came out in religious form. His books are sold by the millions now. Dontkillmeimanoob (talk) 11:06, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sure many Egyptians and others believe that, but is it born out by his writings? As I say, in the 1950s and 1960s, more than a few people believed a good strong, vigorous leader would lead the their nation to greatness, unencombered by petty squabbling of the parliament inflicted on them by colonial masters. --BoogaLouie (talk) 15:52, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Here's another two more questions. It's likely that at least some of these sources got there information from scholars of Islamism like Gilles Kepel and Olivier Roy. Those two speak/read  Arabic have spent a lot of time studying the religion, the culture, the movement of Islamism, including Qutb. They've never said anything about how Qutb was a "poet misunderstoood by literal translation". Do you accuse them also of being Are they also "neocon", fringe sources?
 * Do you have any scholarly source that says anything like "Qutb has sometimes been accused of inspiring bin Laden but there is nothing to this charge"? --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:58, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * That's bit of a loaded question, since you based it on an assumption. Hopefully my point wasn't misunderstood. Never did I write all, but rather, the majority. Look at the list of six you cited. Personally, the charge is meaningless to me, I only cared that those who make such accusations are vetted so that wikipedia readers understand which perspective it comes from. Dontkillmeimanoob (talk) 21:00, 9 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Why is it a loaded question? Surely someone of some notability would denounce and disprove the Qutb's having inspiring bin Laden with all the association between the two "in the media". What evidence can you provide? --BoogaLouie (talk) 23:00, 25 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm going to change, "According to two neo-conservative observers," to "according to a number of observers." and restore the citations deleted. --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:04, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

rvt
change has been reverted by Dontkillmeimanoob and I have rvt it back. Unless you can find a source saying something like "conservatives" see Qutb as inspiring Osama bin Laden, and not just observers in general, I will have to take this to some kind of mediation. --BoogaLouie (talk) 22:34, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

rvt 12 sept
12 September 2009 Edit by "Sevendecepticon" with the summary: "Removed baseless quotes, all three links contained no such phrases. H. Sabrin;s article is nonexitent, the PBS program doesn't list it, neither does Von Drehle's article."

The "baseless" quote was "animalistic desires," and "awful sins" from "nonexitent" article 'Qutb: Between Terror And Tragedy' by Hisham Sabrin. (The full sentence being: Qutb is also known for his intense disapproval of the society and culture of the United States[2][3] which he saw as obsessed with materialism and violence, "animalistic desires," and "awful sins."[4]) The "article" is not "nonexitent" but the link was dead.

I've found a live link to the Sabrin essay in archive.org. Skimming the essay it is highly complimentary of Qutb and in fact, seems to assert much the same line about Qutb that editor "Sevendecepticon" (using various names) has on this page, i.e. Qutb is misunderstood because of false accusations, etc.  --BoogaLouie (talk) 21:07, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi I am H Sabrin. The article Is down and has been for quite some time. If you want the original that I wrote, Please let me know. I have only used Qutb's own writings. hsabrin@yahoo.com. Thank you.

rvt October 10-13
More edits by a "red" (no page) editor Nicearrows deleting sourced material and padding the lead with long quotes from Qutb and unsourced POV (some conservative observers).

Nicearrows, if you are going make major wholesale edits you have to discuss them on the talk page first. And please cease deleting the factiod of Qutb calling for a pious dictatorship (prior to his writing Milestones). It is sourced in a scholarly book on Islamists as I have pointed out to you more then once. --BoogaLouie (talk) 17:46, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

On the language dodge
Qutb wrote in Arabic for an Egyptian audience and he was a poet. Somehow these facts are supposed to "put into context" his venomous hatred for Christians and Jews, Western culture and all non-Muslims.

I am a native speaker of Arabic and a non-Muslim. I read Qutb in Arabic, and I am afraid he is as his discourse suggests he is in translation: a disturbed, hateful son of a b..ch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.208.153.10 (talk) 12:45, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

padding in lead
In his estimate, "Civilization should favor humanity, not act against it".

Yes, and I believe you should do a good deed daily ... but its not a significant or unique sentiment. --BoogaLouie (talk) 21:30, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

rvts
This edit by editor with no user page "Frankatapata" has brought back the contentious assertion that only conservatives see a connection between bin Laden and Qutb. Could "Frankatapata" be Nicearrows or Sevendecepticon or Dontkillmeimanoob? (see above) Well if you are or aren't I will tell you the same thing I told Nicearrows, if you are going make major wholesale edits you have to discuss them on the talk page first. --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:27, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Image
The image of Sayiid Qutb behind bars in the basic information archive in the start of the page - It shows him behind bars. Even if his views were controversial, there is no right to input an image of him - detained in a prison. A Contribution of a new image would be needed But if none is provided, I plea that the image of him behind bars be removed. The simple reason is, that it is that the image fails to depict Sayyid Qutb in a NPOV manner. I acknowledge that in other wikipedias like the arabic wikipedia, there is a different picture, though still behind bars being used. But I fail to see this as a reason to change the picture to a more neutral and positive one of him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.156.226.253 (talk) 15:54, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The fact that Qutb was imprisoned and executed by what he saw as a Jahiliyyah state is as important as any fact about him. What will you have us do next? Remove mention of the fact that Muhammad went to exile in Medina because it "fails to depict him in a NPOV manner"? --BoogaLouie (talk) 00:52, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Th OP made a reasonable request, if a better photo can be found then use it. If not then keep the one in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.38.208.30 (talk) 14:58, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Restoration
Have restored some quotes from Qutb to give some context to the several references to his feelings as a "darker-skinned person" in the West (i.e. the US) --BoogaLouie (talk) 00:11, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Racism
The article first claims that Qutb was critical of America's racism (among other things). However, later on it gives a quote from him in which he expresses contempt for jazz music because it was created by "negroes", whom he claims are "primitive" and have a "desire to be noisy". If that's not a racist comment in and of itself, I don't know what is. He can't both be anti-racist and racist, can he? Stonemason89 (talk) 14:16, 29 January 2011 (UTC)


 * The quote is mistranslated and taken out of context. The new translation as supplied by Soonstudydown seems closer to the meaning intended by Qutb.  Wiqi x talk  18:13, 13 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Totally untrue.
 * Here is soonstudydown's edit.
 * Here is the source it quotes. Note that the
 * "phenomenon [that] misled me at first; I even rejoiced at it, down to the depths of my soul,"
 * ... Qutb talks about refers to the American multitude [which] attends the opera, listens to symphonies, crowds together for the “ballet,” and watches “classic” plays—so much so that you will hardly find an empty seat, and not to jazz music. --BoogaLouie (talk) 18:24, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Here is the text: ''Said Qutb: On the Arts in America ''The American is primitive in his artistic taste, both in what he enjoys as art and in his own artistic works.

''“Jazz” music is his music of choice. This is that music that the Negroes invented to satisfy their primitive inclinations, as well as their desire to be noisy on the one hand and to excite bestial tendencies on the other. The American’s intoxication in “jazz” music does not reach its full completion until the music is accompanied by singing that is just as coarse and obnoxious as the music itself. Meanwhile, the noise of the instruments and the voices mounts, and it rings in the ears to an unbearable degree… The agitation of the multitude[2] increases, and the voices of approval mount, and their palms ring out in vehement, continuous applause that all but deafens the ears.

''But despite this, the American multitude attends the opera, listens to symphonies, crowds together for the “ballet,” and watches “classic” plays—so much so that you will hardly find an empty seat. It will happen sometimes that you do not find a place unless you reserve your seat days beforehand, and that at the high price of the fares for these performances.

''This phenomenon misled me at first; I even rejoiced at it, down to the depths of my soul. For I had been feeling constantly “begrudging” at the fact that this people, which produces marvels in the world of industry and of science and of research, should have no store of the other human values. I had also been terribly afraid on behalf of humanity that its leadership will pass into the hands of this people that is altogether poor in those values.

''... But when I tracked the expressions on faces, and conversed with a great many of the men and women[3] who visit these places (those I knew and those I did not know), all this revealed to me—with regret—how wide a chasm still separates the spirit of such humane art from the spirit of the Americans.


 * From the quote above, my comment between parentheses: "The American is primitive in his artistic taste ... that the Negroes invented to satisfy _their_ (this should be understood as the American's not the "Negroes'") primitive inclinations ...". Qutb also continues to use the term "primitive" in other contexts, all referring to aspects of American life and culture.  Wiqi x talk  18:58, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You have now changed the quote!!
 * ''“Jazz” music is [the American's] music of choice. This is that music that the Negroes invented to satisfy man's inclinations, as well as his desire for noise...This phenomenon misled me at first; I even rejoiced at it, down to the depths of my soul. For I had been feeling constantly “begrudging” at the fact that this people, which produces marvels in the world of industry and of science and of research, should have no store of the other human values.[19]
 * You've changed his to [the American's] and their to man's.
 * What evidence do you have that "his music " refers to "Americans' music" and not "negro's music"?
 * There is no way you can justify changing their primitive inclinations to man's inclinations. You can't get away with misquoting in a wikipedia article!! --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:38, 13 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, it wasn't me that expanded the quote, but User:Soonstudydown. Second, the OP in this discussion thought that Qutb used "primitive" to exclusively refer to "Negroes", whereas Qutb used "primitive" many times to describe American tastes and inclinations at large. Thus the expanded version of the quote is more accurate then your one-liner, and better expresses the intended meaning of "primitive" found throughout Qutb's writings on America. There is also an ambiguity of "their", whether it's referring to "Negroes" or Americans. Furthermore, Qutb didn't write "Negroes", but used the plural form of Zanj -- an Arabic term that doesn't carry the negative and offensive connotations of "Negroes" in common usage. Finally, If you insist on quoting a not so accurate translation to begin with, then at least you should provide the wider context of Qutb's comment. Perhaps the quote should start from "The American is primitive..." and end somewhere further below.  Wiqi x talk  22:19, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You have to take responsiblity for the quote, you rvted to it. The quote in the article now says something different than the source says. And what's this about my "insist[ing] on quoting a not so accurate translation to begin with"? You didn't change the citation, you're using the same source! all you did is misquote it to something you proclaim a "more accurate" translation.
 * I'm happy to quote Qutb calling Americans primitive, but in this case he is obviously talking about Negroes, not Yankees. --BoogaLouie (talk) 22:05, 15 February 2011 (UTC)


 * So you agree that we should expand the quote?  Wiqi x talk  02:47, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I've expanded the quote. --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:54, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 23 October 2012
The photograph on the top right of the page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Qutb) shows Sayyid Qutb in court, not in prison. Readers may well be more familiar with the design of the dock where the defendant stands in an Egyptian criminal court since the broadcasting around the world of news of former president Hosny Mubarak's trial.

86.184.6.221 (talk) 22:24, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: I'm not sure what the change is that you want made. If it's changing the caption for the picture I'd like to see some evidence that the picture is of him in court before I change the caption. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:26, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Islamist antisemitism - fake ideology and mass media cliche
That paragraph have to be modified because also Arabs are Semitic nation, and that is like they are against them self. In fact, is not an Islamic or religious based war because the Palestinians does not want to eradicate the Judaism by replacing with Islam, but they struggle to live in that Palestinian territories. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.133.127.252 (talk) 05:29, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Islamist antisemitism - fake ideology and mass media cliche
That paragraph have to be modified because also Arabs are Semitic nation, and that is like they are against them self. In fact, is not an Islamic or religious based war because the Palestinians does not want to eradicate the Judaism by replacing with Islam, but they struggle to live in that Palestinian territories. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.133.127.252 (talk) 06:57, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Shouldn't that part about antisemitism put in context of Arab-Israel wars.?

Clarify book milestones

 * Heading added by czar   &middot;   &middot;  07:12, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

The reading on the freedom part of milestones book sayyed qutb is barely close to truth, I was interested in reading about the author as I came across these summaries and conclusions of anarcho-islam and such ,the fact is that sayyed qutb was stating that in Islam you are not bound by any measures or rules to obey anyone other than your creator and someone who goes on the same effect , let's say someone that rules for the good of the people and not only his party or own goals , besides obeying all that comes out of a certain individual or government is some kind of servitude , the author basically was stating that a government other than A MUSLIM GOVERNMENT will lead to the servitude of certain people and their own goals and agendas , and he didn't show any interest in seeing society ruled by anarchy or whatever it is that was published in the freedom part of milestones .176.205.107.132 (talk) 23:13, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Visit to America
The first paragraph of the quoted text in the section "Visit to America" is not referenced. There is a name introduced just before as possible source of the text, but there is no reference to that person neither (who is he/she?) or explicit reference to whether the quoted text was written by him/her, and WHERE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.244.15.109 (talk) 16:49, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Criticism: "[Qutub] greatly admired by many in the Muslim world"
The opening sentence of the "Criticism" sections begins with "Though greatly admired by many in the Muslim world" and includes two footnotes of reference


 * http://web.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/milestones/remember.htm

After examining the "Remembering Sayyid Qutb" article, it becomes very obvious that the author is biased towards supporting the views of Sayyid Qutb (he is referred to as a "martyr") and therefore the author's claims of his widespread admiration in the Muslim world may likely represent the author's perception as opposed to the actual sentiment.

Taking a look at the second article "Milestones", the author's statement does not substantiate Qutub's admiration among Muslim, rather it states that his views have "motivated and mobilized" Muslims.


 * http://web.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/milestones/freshlook.htm
 * ""he gave shape to the ideas and the worldview that has mobilized and motivated millions of Muslims from Malaysia to Michigan to strive to reintroduce Islamic practices in their lives and alter social and political institutions so that they reflect Islamic principles"

Based on the aforementioned points, I propose:


 * Removing the Bangash footnote due to its lack of objectivity.


 * Changing the word "admired" to "mobilized or motivated" (unless an objective reference can be found that substantiates Qutub being "greatly admired by many in the Muslim World"


 * Adding additional references from objective (and preferably academic) sources that states the level of admiration of Qutub from within the Muslim world.

Djrun (talk) 22:57, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Funny, this article mentioned as though the classical scholars only hated his thoughts due to him claiming that Slavery is banned in Islam, thus portraying him as a Muslim modernist. That is only one aspect of the story. What is not mentioned here is that his books were filled with political rhetoric's that insults the Sahaba, such as Uthman, Muawiyah, Abu Sufyan and Yazid. This is the MAIN reason classical scholars and Najdi Scholars attacked his "rational" thought.210.195.201.165 (talk) 04:38, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 August 2015
James Toth's recent book should be added to this bibliography: James Toth, The Life and Legacy of a Radical Islamic Intellectual, new York: Oxford University Press, 2013.

Ginnydanielson (talk) 06:32, 6 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: It's not clear why the book should be added to the bibliography. Please explain why it's notable to be listed in the bibliography.  True CRaysball  | #RaysUp 18:59, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

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Criticism
I believe the lead misleadingly presents views of Qutb as "varying widely", per WP:FALSEBALANCE. If I recall correctly, he has been criticized for his extreme radicalism even by other prominent members of the Muslim Brotherhood, not to mention the ulama all around. The tone in the lead and in paragraphs on criticism and legacy should be adapted accordingly. Tokenzero (talk) 14:48, 28 August 2018 (UTC)