Talk:School choice

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Untitled
Greetings,

Though the article's quality is lacking, the subject matter is far too major to delete it considering that decentralised systems are hegemonic in Europe, despite their lesser presence in the Americas. I happen to be a specialist on the matter as a professional government advisor in Education Reform in Canada, but lack the time to write a full article on that matter unfortunately. Interested people might want to consider the following studies as a base for a fact-based article, from official sources. What is missing is mostly union-based criticism, since these resources focus on quantifiable results from a State perspective and not a labour relations angle. Take note that whereas the issue is strongly partisan in the US, its implementation was bipartisan in most other European and Oceanian countries, and was notably instituted by the Labour (centre-of-left) Party in the UK and Sweden.

Richard B., MPA

School Choice in the UK

Google Directory - School Choice

School Choice in Sweden: Lessons for Canada

OECD Country Reviews in Education

Private Schools in Denmark

IPA School Choice

Myth Conceptions School Choice

Criticism of Government Vouchers

School Choice Myths

School Vouchers

Benchmark Education at Democratie Liberale

Policy Options Review: School Choice

Center for Education Reform

School choice builds community

I agree it is heavily biased. I suggest the following first paragraph: "School choice programs permit the parents of students to choose among participating private and public schools, based on a system of vouchers, tax credits, or scholarships at the county or state level. The goal of school choice is to create competition between schools for education dollars, which give schools an incentive to perform better.  This also enables parents to choose, for example, a school which provides stronger discipline, a Christian or Biblical worldview in their instruction, or many other competing and desirable foci that other schools do not. Many public school venues forbid free religious expression, although this is unconstitutional."

This article needs a complete rewrite, but it really needs an American who follows the debate closely to do so. --Robert Merkel

I follow the debate closely, but this article is so ridiculously biased that it would take hours to even come close to making remotely neutral, and I would be on unpaid volunteer time. It's such an amateur hack job that I presume the partisan who wrote it was also an unpaid volunteer, but I don't have the time that he or she does. Cgrannan 06:43, 2 August 2006 (UTC) cgrannan

Upon further reflection: This article seriously needs to be deleted. It's just a poorly informed anti-public education rant, and the points in which it purports to describe the view of public-education supporters misrepresent them to a ridiculous degree in a hamhanded effort to make those who disagree with the author look stupid. It would undoubtedly even embarrass more-intelligent and better-informed SUPPORTERS of so-called "school choice." It degrades and discredits Wikipedia. Cgrannan 14:05, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it needs to be deleted, but much of the content is utter crap and should probably go. I am not familiar with the topic, but even I can smell the bullshit. I'll poke it a little bit, but someone more familiar with the subject should really have a shot at it too, preferably with a machine gun or three. -- Coffee2theorems | Talk 21:52, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I separated the criticism section into criticism and response, splitting it about in half. This affected the quality of the prose somewhat, even though the original wasn't particularly brilliant to begin with. I hope that instead of reverting this they will be edited to actually correspond to their titles, so that the criticism section actually contains criticism instead of being a "criticism and responses to each and every one so that I always get the final word" section. The responses don't need to be line-by-line either, but wholly separate, so that the sections don't need to be edited strictly in tandem. I didn't particularly clean them up, but added original research tags on both sections, because especially the criticism section needs attention from someone who's actually familiar with that POV. Too bad there's no "I strongly suspect this section to be total bull" template, this is a case where it would be useful.. -- Coffee2theorems | Talk 23:02, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

wheres the beef?
I'm an american, and the article looks pretty good to me. Do you have any specific objections, or has it already been rewritten?

One obvious objection is that the article devotes endless words to describing what the clueless author imagines are "school choice" critics' objections, thinking up moronic notions and shooting them down. Obviously, a scholarly, thoughtful and/or ethical author would have taken the trouble to learn what "school choice" critics' ACTUAL objections are, rather than dreaming up some idiotic-sounding notions. Cgrannan 06:43, 2 August 2006 (UTC) cgrannan

Why does there need to be any arguments or drama? The point of the article was to explain the history, principles, and examples of the subject DontTakeMyIPLol (talk) 06:12, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

I disagree with the statement that a variety of choices exist in the United States.
Most students have no option aside from the district they are in. Falsifying address documents in order to enroll is very common. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.121.34.140 (talk) 21:39, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Moved a paragraph or so in here
I read it a little more thoroughly, and decided to edit it a bit, and bring a couple things in here.

"Ultimately, politicians need votes, not money."

"After these limited programs have been established for some time, and society has sufficient confidence, then the experiment may be extended to the middle class. If the courts prevent full voucher programs, then limited ones using tax credits might still come into being.  Tax credits have already been tested in U.S. courts, and would provide sufficient incentives to move many more children into private schools."

These seemed to be a bit too... insightful ;)

one more : "Also, these programs have substantial regulations on the private schools, and are justified by concerns for an equitable education."

JackLynch


 * Liberal political elites divide into politicans, and citizen activists such as the NAACP. These agree in theory that vouchers would not increase democratic instutitions.  However the activists are coming under direct and increasing pressure from their traditional constiuencies, who are forming organizations such as Black Advocates for Educational Choice (BAEC).

Google finds no reference to "Black Advocates for Educational Choice" except for in our article. Does anybody know where they are, how large they are, and whether they indeed are "increasing pressure" on the NAACP? DanKeshet

The original author almost certainly intended to name BAEO, the Black Alliance for Education Options. Another organization worth mentioning is Hispanic CREO, the Hispanic Council for Reform and Educational Options. cheesedevil


 * In the U.S., many unaccredited public schools have per-student costs more than twice the tuition of accredited private schools in the same area. In many areas, the accredited private schools also have superior educational outcomes.

Something like this simply has to be cited, preferably to the original studies and not secondary sources. So we know what on earth they mean by "superior educational outcomes", etc. DanKeshet 01:13, Nov 10, 2003 (UTC)


 * The advantages to society are supposed to be several. First, people will be as well educated as possible.  In particular, vouchers might easily help equalize educational outcomes for underprivileged children and middle-class children.  Second, that the available money for education should theoretically tend to flow to the best available learning methods, and institutions and possibly even save a lot of money.

The first 'advantage' is simply an assertion. You could just as easily say, "the disadvantages to this are that people will not be as well educated as possible." If you want to say the more specific assertion, that it will equalize educational outcomes for underpriviliged children, than you should say so, but you should attribute the claim. The second claim definitely needs to be attributed. Could we include some information on who, precisely, advocates school choice. For example, the Brookings institute or John Lott would be better than "politically-impotent libertarians". DanKeshet

I removed a large part of the article. It seemed redundant and non-encyclopedic to me. Also, there were many claims bandied about without any evidence to back anything up. It looked very POV to me so I removed most vague, over-reaching/sweeping statements. If anyone is dissatisfied, don't be angry, jut revert my editions as I don't intend to go on a big debate about this. I just think the text in the article that I deleted did not have much substance. Dori 04:46, Nov 15, 2003 (UTC)

This is an extremely complex and controversial subject and much of what appears is way too simple (or shows strong bias toward one side of the debate or other) I've tried to suggest adding a link to the National Center for Study of Privatization of Education (NCSPE, ) at Columbia University, which has a wealth of solid, balanced papers available on line. Bob McMeekin

picayune nitpick:
I do not understand the second word ["Moe"] of this parenthetical remark: "(See Moe, or ask accrediting organizations in your area)". MikeSchwartz
 * Based on the earlier mention "Moe and the CATO institute (see references, below)" it appears to be this book: John E. Chubb and Terry M. Moe, Politics, Markets, and America's Schools (Washington: Brookings Institution, 1990), p. 183. which I found as a footnote in a Cato article on the subject.  Since the references do not appear in this wikipedia article despite being pointed to by the parenthetical remark I cite, it smells like a copyvio to me, but Googling the phrase didn't get any non-Wikipedia hits.  Autiger 9 July 2005 05:05 (UTC)

You all are rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. This entry is a one-sided, ill-informed anti-public-education rant that would embarrass even intelligent SUPPORTERS of so-called "school choice." It degrades and discredits Wikipedia and needs to be removed. Cgrannan 14:49, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Some more information on School Choice
(I am not a very good writer, so I figured I would add some information here and let others decide what is good enough to be added and what needs to be edited.)

School Choice in America comes in a few different forms. The different options could be put into these categories: Vouchers, Tax Credits, Charter Schools, Magnet Schools and even Home Schooling.

Vouchers: When the government pays tuition to a private school on behalf of the parents, this is usually referred to as a Voucher. Vouchers currently exist in Milwaukee, Cleveland, Florida, and, most recently, Utah and the District of Columbia. The largest and oldest Voucher program is in Milwaukee. Started in 1990, and expanded in 1995, it currently allows no more that 15% the district's public school enrollmentto use vouchers. As of 2005 over 14,000 students use vouchers and they are nearing the 15% cap.

Tax Credits (or Tuition Tax Credits): A Tuition Tax Credit is similar to most other familiar tax credits. Certain states allow individuals and/or businesses to deduct a certain amount of their income taxes to donate to education. Depending on the program, these donations can either go to a public school or to a School Tuition Organization (STO), or both. The donations that go to public schools are often used to help pay for after-school programs, schools trips, or school supplies. The donations that go to School Tuition Organizations are used by the STO to create scholarships that are then given to students. These programs currently exist in Arizona, Florida, Illinois, Iowa, Minnesota and Pennsylvania.

Arizona has probably the most well known and fastest growing Tax Credit program. In the Arizona School Tuition Organization Tax Credit program individuals can deduct up to $500 and couples filing joint returns can deduct up to $625. About 20,000 children received scholarships in the 2003-2004 school year. And since the program has started in 1998, over 77,000 scholarships have been granted.

Charter Schools: Charter schools are public schools with more relaxed rules and regulations. These relaxed rules tend to deal with things like Teacher Union contracts and state curriculum. The majority of states (and the District of Columbia) have Charter School laws. Minnesota was the first state to have a charter school law and the first charter school in the United States, City Academy, opened in St. Paul, Minnesota in 1992.

In places like Dayton, OH, Kansas City, MO, Washington, DC more than 14% of public school students attend charter schools. Of the states, Arizona has the most charter schools per capita with over 20% of their public schools being charter schools.

Charter Schools can also come in the form of Cyber Charters. Cyber charter schools deliver the majority of their instruction over the Internet instead of in a school building. And, like Charter Schools, they are public schools, but free of many of the rules and regulations that public schools must follow.

Magnet Schools: Magnet schools are public schools that often have a specialized function (i.e. science, technology, art, etc.). These Magnet Schools (unlike charter schools) are not open to all children. Much like many private schools, the students must test into the school.

Home Education: When a child is educated at home, or is having his education instructed or directed primarily by a parent, then this is usually referred to as Home Education or Home Schooling. Home Education has obviously been around for a very long time, but in the last 20 years the number of children being educated at home has grown tremendously. The laws relevant to Home Education differ throughout the country. In some states the parent simply needs to notify the state that the child will be educated at home. In other states the parents are not free to educate at home unless at least one parent is a certified teacher and yearly progress reports are reviewed by the state. Currently there are over a million children being educated at home. (A note on Home Education statistics: right now I would say that almost any statisitic that you see about the number of Homeschoolers and Home Educators in America is suspect. As far as I know, there have been no official data gathering done by the Federal Government or by some reputable polling company.  Also, Home Educators tend to be at least a little skeptical of government intrusion and might not welcome any attempt at gathering accurate information.  But this is just my opinion.)

Uncategorized School Choice: There are still some examples that do not fit well in any of the previously mentioned categories. One such example is in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. In Edmonton each school principal has near total control of the school budget. That is, the principal does not need to go through some central bureaucracy to get things built or changed. This gives each school and principle more autonomy. This might be considered similar to Charter Schools, but these are traditional public with VERY traditional budgeting schemes.

More information on School Choice in the United States can be found at:
 * The ABCs of School Choice (pdf) from the Friedman Foundation
 * Frequently Asked Questions from School Choice Indiana
 * School Reform News - August 2001 edition (pdf) from The Heartland Institute
 * School Reform News also from The Heartland Institute

POV vs NPOV: Traditionally, school choice advocates have been on the right and school choice detractors have been on the left. So, those looking to find information to support School choice should look to these Think Tanks:
 * Cato Institute
 * Heartland Institute
 * Heritage Foundation
 * The Milton and Rose D. Friedman Foundation
 * Goldwater Institute
 * Hoover Institution

Those looking for information to oppose School Choice should look here:
 * People for the American Way
 * National Education Association (NEA)
 * National PTA
 * National School Boards Association
 * Progressive Policy Institute

I have started to provide references for the things that I have stated. If anyone feels that these references are insufficient or that some things need to be referenced that have not, please tell me.

Some Notes: Vouchers also exist in Vermont and Maine and have been in place since the 1800s. These programs are very small and serve only those students that live in rural areas that do not have a public school. Also, there are privately funded Voucher programs around the country. The two largest are the Children's Educational Opportunity (CEO) Foundation and the Children's Scholarship Fund. I will add more about these later.

Some Notes on School Choice around the World: Different School Choice programs have been implemented in Chile (as already noted), Colombia, Australia, Sweden, Denmark, Canada, New Zealand, and the Netherlands. Also, in Japan, High School (i.e. grades 10-12) is not mandatory but attendance is wide-spread. Hopefully I can give an introduction to these programs at a later date.

I hope this was helpful.

Ian Lewis

p.s. Someone was asking about "Black Advocates for Educational Choice". The original user was incorrect. I am assuming that they were referring to the Black Alliance for Educational Options. They were started in 2000 and have a number of chapters around the country.

This information needs to be added to the beginning of the article
The beginning of the article that we are all commenting on starts off with a commentary about vouchers without really describing the multitude of options involved in school choice. The above information should be added to the beginning of the article to give the reader an understanding about these options. Many of these options include public schools such as charters that choose students through a lottery process. These types of schools do not discriminate against any population of students and are open to all applicants. Also, the article makes a statement that the purpose of school choice (vouchers, charters etc.) is to create competition between public schools for education dollars. The real intention of public school choice in the form of charter schools is to create an environment of research and development in the public education environment so that different curriculum models can be tried and observed by other school systems to determine their effectiveness. Many traditional public school systems are in crises when it comes to curriculum deivery and they are not using curriculum that is the most effective for achieving learning goals that are now required by the "No Child Left Behind Act". Creating an environment that allows schools to use alterntive methods of curriculum delivery allows all schools to benefit.Mklang 20:33, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Added two paragraphs
I added 2 paragraphs to the pro side. In the against side, the last reason is remarkably tenous, and in my opinion, outright communist/socialist. It sounds like, to me, it is saying that, well, kids under the voucher system will be better educated, get rich, and will then segregate themselves from the other kids, so better to not let them get rich in the first place. The only possible way that clause makes sense is if these formerly poor but now rich families would, had their not been vouchers, put their kids in a public school with rich and poor. Even that assumption is terribly weak. First, if they were rich, they would have the wealth to put their kids in a private school anyway. Second, if the first reason were untrue, and these rich parents actually did put their kids in a public school, it would be in an affluent public school, reflective of the affluence of the parents (or affluent surroundings), because the public school one attends is based on the residence of the parents. so, vouchers would not change anything either way. In fact, rich parents whose children already attend a successful public school in an affluent area would have no incentive to switch schools, unless truly better schools were available. If everyone gets a better education, then there will be no segregation. And, if you are rich, vouchers are not going to make a difference, because you can afford private schooling with or without the funds provided by vouchers. I deleted it because, as I demonstrated, the reasoning is atrocious and fallacious. Also, I think this article should be merged with school vouchers. Additionally, the first two paragraphs are terribly written; How can one be a "school choice proponent" if one does "not advocate it at all." It's an ambigous pronoun. I edited it a little. - ashernm

Suggestions
One quick reference for the arguments for school choice is the Heartland Institute's "Ten Principles of School Choice." http://www.heartland.org/pdf/16856.pdf

Another issue that should be presented is the amount of governmental interference involved in different school choice efforts. Critics of school choice often make lack of rules and oversight over private schools an issue. Private schools do not have to be accredited by the state (approving/dictating the curriculum) or have their teachers certified (private schools often choose people coming out of industry to teach and so this would be a problem) by the state. It turns out that the vast majority of private schools are already judging these things by much tougher standards than the state requires, though. In school choice movements, critics will want to attach requirements to dictate how a private school can be run (thus increasing the power of the state and nullifying the advantage that private schools had to begin with.) As this is an issue that is brought up in every school choice movement it should be in the school choice article.

M. J. Cooper

Response to M.J. Cooper
That is a good suggestion, to include amount of government choice. I think school choice programs generally have optional participation. Thus, if a private school found the regulations mandated by a school choice program too onerous, it would simply not participate in the program.

This has become ridiculous
...and poorer incomes can afford Ramen noodles for the family...

This is not evolving into an encyclopedic article, but rather devolving into a collection of silly arguments.

Is there a way we can improve this entry into something more intelligent?

Probably not. It's really pathetically stupid and probably beyond repair. Cgrannan 06:44, 2 August 2006 (UTC) cgrannan

Just edit the article to make it more accurate DontTakeMyIPLol (talk) 06:13, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Home School Legal Defense
We might want to remove the link to the Home School Legal Defense Association. I have nothing against Home Education, which is why I included it in my additions, but this link might be more appropriate on the Homeschooling entry.

Ian Lewis

Support: Private vs. Public
Their seems to be an Edit War happening in the Support/Criticism section of this article. And, at that, the war seems focused on Private Schooling vs. Public Schooling with a focus on Vouchers. I think that this is a shame since Wikipedia has articles on Private Schools, Public Schools and Vouchers.

Hopefully we could have something intelligent written concerning the Pros and Cons of all forms of School Choice and possibly dedicate more energy to increasing our knowledge of the most recent developments in School Choice as well as School Choice around the world.

Well, that is my 2 cents.

Ian Lewis

School Choice is for Parents
I agree that this article has a focus on vouchers. School choice encompasses all public, private and alternatives to education. The introduction of this article is not comprehensive regarding the wide range of alternatives available in the United States today. Ten years ago parents were expected to send their children to the nearest public school. Today, parents of preschoolers expect to have a choice and in America today there is a growing variety of educational programs. As a parent and educator I can appreciate this on many levels. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mklang (talk • contribs) 18:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

POV
Despite "school choice" being a heavily debated concept this article staets only what supporters are saying. Not one criticism of the concept is reflected in the article. Homey 00:54, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

This is certainly true! It provides a lot of verbiage on what "school choice" supporters claim to THINK the other side is saying, though either the "school choice" supporters deliberately wrote up some ridiculous arguments to make their opponents look like idiots, or they are honestly, truly clueless. Regardless, a scholarly and ethical contributor would have made some effort to find out what the other side is ACTUALLY saying rather than making up a bunch of ridiculous hooey. Cgrannan 06:43, 2 August 2006 (UTC) cgrannan


 * I tried to present as much information as I could about the present status of School Choice in America with a NPOV. That is, provide a basic definition of each type of School Choice and then some updates on the numbers: What States/Towns, how many children, etc.


 * I also provided links to some of the more popular sites, both Pro and Con. I was hoping that this would help anyone who thought the article was biased.  That is, they could follow the links and then update the article with more accurate data.


 * Since there was already a lot of text in the Support and Criticism sections of the article, I left them alone and will probably continue to do so. I dont want to get into an Edit War, I just want to see lots of good info on what is currently happening.


 * If you have some more good info on the many changes that have happened in the last 18 months (i.e. Utah, Colorado, DC, Cleveland, or even outside the USA), I would love to see them. I have been busy at work and have not had much time to updating this article. Ian Lewis 15:16, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

The introduction remains completely one-sided. It needs to become neutral with either all advocacy removed or with it balanced out with criticism. Also, the "criticism" section is completely bereft of sources. Perhaps the critical links you've added should be mined for information that can be integrated into the article?Homey 15:26, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Personally, I think that the first paragraph is not that bad. Either way, I will need to leave this task to someone else. I am much more interested in the actual data, which is what I originally thought you were refering to. Ian Lewis 20:03, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

The entire entry is ridiculous and degrades Wikipedia. Cgrannan 06:43, 2 August 2006 (UTC) cgrannan

I think that is an interesting article not deserving indiscriminate criticism but data-supported and specific contributions.

Anyhow, I understands that Sweden have an interesting system, I appreciate if somebody knowable in the situation there can expand the article with a  entry on Sweden Milton 17:46, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I replaced the "criticism" section with some actual criticisms, rather than the straw-man arguments that were there before. Not going to spend the time cleaning up the overly-enthusiastic other sections, though. Eceresa 16:35, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

the problem is that critics have a really dumb argument on top of the fact that no one is providing good sources for those bad statements. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.4.225.29 (talk) 23:44, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Charter Schools offer opportunities for research and development of effective curriculum practices
I would like to see the following point made in this article. Different forms of school choice such as vouchers, charter schools, private schools and home schooling should be defined at the beginning of this article. Also, school choice does not just benefit parents, it allows charter schools to try different approaches to designing and implementing curriculums in an atmosphere of research and development. Other schools can observe the impact that "non-traditional" curriculum delivery has on students and consider adopting things that seem to work. Evaluating the success of schools is a very different issue, however.Mklang 18:41, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Links to nowhere
It has been a long time since I have made any additions to this Wiki, but I got curious and attempted to read some of the referenced articles in the Criticism section. Well, 3 of the 4 links went to a login page and the 4th referenced an article on the Milwaukee Voucher system that is 13 years old.

So, reference #12: ''Opponents argue that many parents in impoverished areas might be unable to make informed decisions, and that certain types of parents are more likely to flee neighborhood schools, reinforcing social-class inequality. [12]'' ...goes to a login page.

And, #13: ''School choice in the form of vouchers could result in nothing more than a cash-handout for many middle-class and wealthy families already sending their kids to private schools, with poorer families either unable to secure enrollment or unable to cover costs in addition to the vouchers. [13]'' ...goes to a login page.

14: ''Students who are unable, because of their parents' educational level or the lack of reliable transportation, to leave their local schools will be hurt as additional funding is cut from their schools. [14]'' ... references a very old article.

And, finally, #15: ''Studies by the Indiana Center for Evaluation have shown that the use of vouchers does not improve student test scores. [15]'' ...goes to a login page.

Now, I have no problem with people criticizing School Choice, but considering how many articles have been written about it, I see no reason to have outdated and unreachable sources.

Ian Lewis 18:12, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

We need to add some info on the latest Utah Tax Credit law
We need to add some info on the latest Utah Tax Credit law. Hopefully, some info on the amount and the restrictions.

Economist article
The Economist has an article on the academic research about school choice here. The article cites research by Harry Patrinos of the World Bank and Caroline Hoxby of Harvard University. In addition, the Brookings Institution has research on school choice here. Also, Nobel Prize-winning economist Milton Friedman explained his views of the benefits of school choice in the book Capitalism and Freedom. --JHP 22:56, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, the Economist article is no longer free to read online. The link you provided for Harry Patrinos links to a work by another author, but still looks useful. The Brookings report also looks like a substantive piece, unlike the mere posturing I'm seeing right now. I'm currently reviewing Larry Willmore's Basic Education as a Human Right Redux, which also may be useful. Dancter (talk) 19:43, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Removed response section.
This was absurdly counter to Wikipedia. Who is this a response from? What is it a response to? The article? That's not how Wikipedia works. There is already a section listing arguments for and arguments against. --Loonymonkey (talk) 00:55, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Overlap
I was thinking that there's a lot of overlap between this article and Opposition to public education in the United States. The reason is that vouchers/school choice are often viewed (by people on both sides of the debate) as a steppingstone to abolishing public schools. How shall we deal with this? Should the other article simply be a redirect to this? Or vice versa? Are there really a significant number of school choice advocates who think that in the end, we should stop short of complete abolition of public schools? Sarsaparilla (talk) 04:12, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Human rights etc
Please stop inserting material that violates a range of Wiki policies and has no consensus support, having been reverted by several different editors. There's no problem in stating that supporters of publicly-funded school choice see it as guaranteed by UN conventions, but this statement shouldn't be written to make it appear that Wikipedia endorses this argument. JQ (talk) 07:22, 8 March 2009 (UTC)


 * William Forrestall is propagandizing the issue, and violating Wikipedia policies on original research and neutral point of view. As reflected in the lead paragraph, despite the name, "school choice" is not shorthand for "the freedom for parents to choose a school for their children without discrimination" (something already encompassed in the term "freedom of education"), but a reference to programs. Although the argument that freedom of education necessitates school choice is an arguably valid one, Mr. Forrestall is trying to conflate the two concepts as the same thing.


 * He's padding the article with large, uncontextualized, cherry-picked block excerpts from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (see WP:PSTS, WP:DUE), and has editorialized that because UDHR and other international agreements also don't mention things like funding "election expenses" (which he suggests are also fundamental rights), the documents therefore affirm school choice as a right. The documents focus on genuine human rights, and don't mention election expenses or "funded school choice" because they don't assume a capitalist paradigm, or a necessary role for money. Again, the specific phrase "school choice" refers to programs.
 * He also removed the term "implicitly," despite the fact since school choice is not actually mentioned in the documents, any claimed support would have to be implicit. Even OIDEL, which he has liberally referenced, specifically used the word, "implies". Dancter (talk) 16:45, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

misinformed
in the first paragraph it has a grossly inaccurate statement: "In U.S. political discourse it refers exclusively to programs that would provide public funds to privately run schools, since parents already have the option of sending their child to the private school of their choice (within their economic means)." In fact, school choice is a phrase that the right has tried to co-opt but in the U.S. it still means: open-enrollment (intra or inter district); magnets; charters; and vouchers. I may just re-write this. My doctoral dissertation has an essary on school choice that covers all this, some international perspectives, AND has statistics on how many parents chose their child's school (including moving to a district or neighborhood to pick the school they like).

Michelle LaPointe

matemtik
--203.82.80.216 (talk) 11:30, 22 May 2012 (UTC)--203.82.80.216 (talk) 11:30, 22 May 2012 (UTC)Ḁ

CREDO Bar Graph on Charter Schools
I’ve removed the following image http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Charter_School_Performance_Study.svg due to problems with its factual accuracy. I’d fully support its return if the image can be corrected to not overstate the claims of the source material to the point of it being POV or original research.

First off, charter schools are ‘’’public schools’’’, so the labels used are nonsensically contrasting the identical. The actuate term used in the CREDO source material is traditional public school (TPS).

Secondly, and more importantly, it misrepresents the source data from page 44, table 9, labeled: “Table 9: Market Fixed Effects – Percentage of Charter Schools by Significance”. The CREDO study repeatedly states that it is not comparing charter schools to any actual traditional publics schools, but rather it’s comparing charter schools to heuristically adjusted virtual TPS. In other words, it’s comparing charter schools to purely theoretical schools, these are not public schools that actually exist, however, the bar graph labels give this impression. The source material does not make the claims made in this bar graph. Understanding this distinction is vital, as that portion of the study’s validly is unpinned by the assumption that educational performance gains scale equally and linearly at all levels and demographics. As this is a controversial assumption, if this is incorrect then the demographic virtual modeling adjustment would also be inaccurate.

Source Material: http://credo.stanford.edu/reports/MULTIPLE_CHOICE_CREDO.pdf

“The analysis employs a statistical technique, fixed effects, which is applied to each pair of charter and virtual schools to remove all the effects that are shared and constant over time. The average growth of students in each charter school is then computed relative to the average results of their virtual twins.” –page 43

“This finding says nothing about how well the local traditional schools are doing; it merely assesses the expectation that whatever the level, charters serving the same population should produce results at the same level.” –page 44 Jadon (talk) 14:56, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

removing POV tag with no active discussion per Template:POV
I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
 * This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:
 * There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
 * It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
 * In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.

Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 21:07, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Section on Canada is incorrect
The section on Canada begins with the statement "Ontario is the only large province in Canada with limited school choice funding...". This is incorrect (also, "large province" isn't defined).

In British Columbia (the third largest province by population) Private schools receive per-student government funding at about half the rate of private schools in the same disrict. Distributed learning schools receive somewhat over $6000 per student, per year in lower grades, with funding being possible on a per course basis in higher grades (10-12 I believe).

I don't have the proper sources for this, which is why I haven't written it into the article, but I work at an online school in British Columbia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.156.20.32 (talk) 20:09, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 3 one external links on School choice. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080821180747/http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/05/04/education.debate/ to http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/05/04/education.debate/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080821125957/http://www.washingtonpolicy.org/Centers/education/policynote/04_milewski_publiceducation.html to http://www.washingtonpolicy.org/Centers/education/policynote/04_milewski_publiceducation.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080821180747/http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/05/04/education.debate/ to http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/05/04/education.debate/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers. —cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 15:23, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Dr. Guillen's comment on this article
Dr. Guillen has reviewed this Wikipedia page, and provided us with the following comments to improve its quality:

"There is room for improvement. A mention to school choice though matching algorithms within an area comprising several public schools needs to be included in the intro. A shot section describing the use of matching algorithms for school choice has to be added to "Forms". It should include a link to a school matching subsection in a market design article. References to the Boston busing, the old Boston algorithm and the reform lead by Al Roth must be also included in the School choice article. More detail should be found in a market design article."

We hope Wikipedians on this talk page can take advantage of these comments and improve the quality of the article accordingly.

We believe Dr. Guillen has expertise on the topic of this article, since he has published relevant scholarly research:


 * Reference : Guillen, Pablo & Hakimov, Rustamdjan, 2014. "Monkey see, monkey do: Truth-telling in matching algorithms and the manipulation of others," Discussion Papers, Research Unit: Market Behavior SP II 2014-202, Social Science Research Center Berlin (WZB).

ExpertIdeasBot (talk) 16:18, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Segregation in School Choice Models wording
While the topic seems interesting, the wording is a bit off in my opinion.

Sentences such as: "The next question we must answer is why school choice systems and charter schools are more racially segregated."

As far as I'm concerned, Wikipedia is not going to answer that question. Wikipedia is supposed to give a series of POV that either support or oppose the subject, therefore providing the users with the most balanced information.

To me, the wording seems like a mere copy and paste of what was said in the document/article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.72.49.96 (talk) 18:13, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Why is it wrong that it is specific to the U.S.A.?
School Choice is an issue and a movement in the United States.

It is not a statement about the various options available throughout all school systems in the world.

If statement 2 is the thrust of the page, then we need two pages: "The School Choice Movement in the U.S.A" and then "School choices world wide".

Just my thoughts to clear this up for everyone. If you look at the comments they're more like not understanding the thrust of the page than like a debate (pros versus cons).

In the U.S.A. we just (2/7/2017) confirmed a person (Mrs. DeVos) as Secretary of Education, who will be attempting to implement the tenets of the School Choice Movement.

Hope this helps.

-T- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FCC8:9CC4:E000:7C08:8E65:6DDF:9990 (talk) 01:59, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

APA Citations
Saporito, S. (2003). Private choices, public consequences: magnet school choice and segregation by race and poverty. Social Problems, 50, 181-203. Archbald, A. D., (2004). School choice, magnet schools, and the liberation model: an empirical study. Sociology of Education, 77, 283-310. Saporito, S., & Sohoni, D. (2006). Coloring outside the lines: racial segregation in public schools and their attendance boundaries. Sociology of Education, 79, 81-105.

Goldring, E., & Smrekar, C. (2000). Magnet schools and the pursuit of racial balance. Education and Urban Society, 33, 17-35. Saporito, S., &Lareau, T. (1999). School selection as a process: the multiple dimensions of race in framing educational choice. Social Problems, 46, 418-439.

Roda, A., & Wells, S., W. (2013). School choice policies and racial segregation: where white parents’, good intentions, anxiety and privilege collide. American Journal of Education, 119, 261-293. doi: 10.1086/668753

Davis, M., T. (2012). School choice and segregation: “tracking racial equity in magnet schools.” Education and Urban Society, 46, 399-433. Jacobs, N. (2011). Understanding school choice: location as a determinant of charter school racial, economic, and linguistic segregation. Education and Urban Society, 45, 459-482. doi: 10.1177/0013124511413388 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jcorrea0112 (talk • contribs) 05:55, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Article is still biased
It's been over a decade since this was first brought up and nothing was done to fix it. This article reads like a sales pitch by school choice advocates. Criticism is two paragraphs while the "support" section is three times as long - not that it matters because the entire article is in support, when in reality this is nowhere near such a one sided issue. Not a good look for wikipedia. 46.97.170.112 (talk) 10:45, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Change it then DontTakeMyIPLol (talk) 06:14, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Why do you think the entire article is biased and what content do you think is missing from the criticism section? X-Editor (talk) 20:22, 3 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Maybe we can start with the fact that the roots of the School Choice movement trace back to Brown v Board of Education, and was an attempt to abolish public schools and protect segregation. Right now, it's being pushed by the same people as a response to "CRT in public schools". It's not a coincidence that the talks around School Choice are becoming topical when certain political groups are fearmongering about the dangers of desegregation, or the evils of the acceptance of LGBTQ rights.
 * And that is not even mentioning the fact that private schools in Florida, funded through this program have been caught teaching Lost Cause revisionism, and downplaying slavery in the South. 46.97.170.50 (talk) 13:35, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

School choice vs Teacher choice
Are any distinctions made between school choice and teacher choice? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.158.156.125 (talk) 17:20, 19 May 2022 (UTC)