Talk:Sengkang/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: HaEr48 (talk · contribs) 08:00, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

I'll take this review. Expect feedback in the next few days. HaEr48 (talk) 08:00, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

General
In my opinion, this still needs a lot of works to fulfill GA requirements. See Good article criteria, particularly criteria 1a, 1b, 2a, 4. One of the main concern is that it reads a lot like a promotional material, with heavy use of praise-filled words to describe the subject. Such wording may be appropriate for Strait Times articles written to highlight the subject, but aren't good for Wikipedia. In addition, the grammar isn't solid in many places, please consider asking someone to copyedit the article. There are many simple lists (directories of schools, churches, etc.) without much context. A lot of citations are missing author, title, date, publisher, and need to be fixed. Please see below for more details. I'll put the GA review on hold for seven days, and then we'll see whether this article can be realistically passed. Thanks. HaEr48 (talk) 06:21, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Detailed
✅ 1.02 editor (talk) 22:29, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
 * The town is made up of four neighbourhoods: just name them here if only 4.
 * ✅ removed it 1.02 editor (talk) 11:31, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Why not name them?
 * Neighbourhood is the wrong term. There are seven subzones, which are listed below. If you think listing the subzones are better I'll move it soon. 1.02 editor (talk) 12:24, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I see. Struck this item. HaEr48 (talk) 05:02, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
 * "Fishing villages and rubber, pepper and pineapple plantations flourished in the area in the old days" => This has nothing to do with the etymology of “Sengkang”?
 * ✅. 1.02 editor (talk) 07:21, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * The only public housing estate then => Words like “then” needs to be replaced with more precise time. At which time was this statement true?
 * Fixed as time frame was put in above. 1.02 editor (talk) 07:21, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Before the town was developed into a modern housing estate => when was this?
 * ✅ 1.02 editor (talk) 07:11, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * six neighbourhoods that will => use past tense
 * ✅  User:Anchorvale User talk:Anchorvale  07:58, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * “eventually” and “long term” in the same sentence are redundant
 * ✅ 1.02 editor (talk) 11:38, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * “Sengkang's rich history became the theme for its future – Town of the Seafarer” -> this sounds like marketing. Please reword using neutral words, and/or specify who used the phrase “Town of the Seafarer”
 * Who came up with the name "Town of the Seafarer"? Is it the official nickname? HaEr48 (talk)

07:51, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
 * It appeared in a 2000 newspaper article and afterwards became its unofficial name. 1.02 editor (talk) 10:15, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅1.02 editor (talk) 08:57, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

07:51, 30 January 2018 (UTC) ✅ 1.02 editor (talk) 11:20, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * "Sengkang's rich history became… Three neighbourhoods carry .. other three will reflect the past when sprawling plantations covered parts of the area". Inconsistent tense. Please use the right tense throughout this paragraph.
 * : Grammar would be wrong if all of them are chamged.  User:Anchorvale User talk:Anchorvale  08:29, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅ 1.02 editor (talk) 01:46, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
 * "As at" => "as of" ✅  User:Anchorvale User talk:Anchorvale  08:29, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * “there are 384 HDB apartment blocks with 39,982 units in Sengkang New Town” . Is "Sengkang New Town" the same thing as Sengkang? Or is it a subset? Please explain
 * They are the same.
 * ✅  User:Anchorvale User talk:Anchorvale  08:29, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Updated section. 1.02 editor (talk) 08:43, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
 * “In October 1999, a steering committee … ” This paragraph is (1) too wordy and (2) too vague. Please make it shorter. Focus and be more specific on what was actually accomplished by the committee
 * ✅  User:Anchorvale User talk:Anchorvale  08:29, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Any explanation on what actually was achieved? "Amenities" are very generic, what did they actually do? 05:31, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅ 1.02 editor (talk) 10:25, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * “The Sengkang Town Centre” -> is this a government building? Retail centre? Please explain.
 * It is a subzone.
 * ✅  User:Anchorvale User talk:Anchorvale  08:29, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * i think that this can be explained in Sengkang
 * The new road -> “New” is too vague, when was it built?
 * ✅ 1.02 editor (talk) 02:10, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
 * A map of the area would help in the “Geography” section
 * unfortunately commons does not have such a file. 1.02 editor (talk) 01:55, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Looking through commons again is a map of Singapore with Sengkang outlined good enough? 1.02 editor (talk) 13:10, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * It will do for now, but please consider finding a local map of Sengkang itself showing its subzones and main landmarks. HaEr48 (talk) 06:02, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * is google maps okay? its licensed under fair use. 1.02 editor (talk) 07:59, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't think fair-using Google Maps is acceptable here. It's okay if this is not possible. Just a suggestion. HaEr48 (talk) 07:25, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Sengkang New Town is divided into seven subzones => how do these subzones differ from/overlap with the four neighborhoods?
 * ✅ 1.02 editor (talk) 01:55, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Also the wikilink in subzone is incorrect
 * ✅  User:Anchorvale User talk:Anchorvale  08:29, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Still incorrect. 07:53, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅ 1.02 editor (talk) 08:51, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
 * “Highlights” => highlights according to whom? Please use more neutral word
 * ✅. 1.02 editor (talk) 07:21, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * The section is still titled "highlights". HaEr48 (talk)
 * ✅ 1.02 editor (talk) 08:59, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
 * "bring life through the town" please use a more neutral, encyclopedic way to phrase this.
 * ✅ as above
 * In general, the “Highlights” is full of writings that reads like a commercial (too tiring to list one by one). Maybe because the source is a newspaper. Please rewrite and use more neutral, descriptive tone rather than praising the town or the planners. See examples from GA towns here Good_articles/Geography_and_places.
 * Changing it to places.  User:Anchorvale User talk:Anchorvale  08:29, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅ toned down the section. 1.02 editor (talk) 13:31, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
 * “North East Line”: rearrange the paragraph, to mention North East Line first before mentioning other lines that connects to NEL
 * ✅ 1.02 editor (talk) 07:11, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * "integrated into a building complex to allow seamless travel" less promotional tone please. Other than being connected to a bus interchange, are there other notable things about this station?
 * ✅  User:Anchorvale User talk:Anchorvale  08:29, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Still not addressed. HaEr48 (talk) 07:51, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Removed a duplication further up in the summary of the "Transportation" section that had the same promotional tone, and added opening dates for the station. ~ KN2731 {t ⋅ c} 03:09, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
 * "Sengkang is well connected to many parts of Singapore and getting into and out of the town is relatively easy": this is subjective. If it’s an opinion of a reliable source, please attribute it.
 * ✅ 1.02 editor (talk) 04:24, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
 * According to WP:NOTDIRECTORY. “Simple listings without context information” are discouraged. I see many such simple listings in this article, e.g. in “Education”, “Places of worship”, “Sengkang Town Centre”, “Sengkang Town Centre”, “Welfare Services”, “Community Centres/Clubs”, and so on give lists upon lists without much context. Either remove them, or convert them to a prose that contains less indiscriminate information
 * ✅ 1.02 editor (talk) 12:54, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * "Politics" -> before launching into the details of each constituencies and elections, please begin this section with a summary paragraph, so that the reader can expect what’s coming next. Even after reading the whole section it’s unclear to me, how many constituencies are there, which part of Sengkang they correspond to, who are the MPs and which parties they’re from.
 * The first para is not clear enough. (1) Outside Singapore, people might not know what "GE2015" means, and (2) it's not that the whole Sengkang is part of four constituencies, it's divided into parts that each is part of different constituencies. HaEr48 (talk) 07:51, 30 January 2018 (UTC)


 * ✅ 1.02 editor (talk) 08:56, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
 * IMO, the first para still does not clearly summarize this section. HaEr48 (talk) 05:31, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I reworded it again. Is it better now? ~ KN2731 {t ⋅ c} 09:45, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes thank you. 06:02, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * "He took over Teo Ser Luck" -> please fix grammar
 * ✅1.02 editor (talk) 08:43, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
 * A lot of references just say ‘“Archived copy". Archived from the original on [date]’, without including the author, publisher, original date, title, etc. Please fix.
 * Removed some as part of cleaning up, would fix the rest. 1.02 editor (talk) 01:25, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅ 1.02 editor (talk) 03:32, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Many references are still incomplete. You need to include at least author (if any), title, date (original date, not just retrieved date), publisher (not just domain name like hdb.gov.sg, but include the name of the publisher). If possible include the "|location=" e.g. Singapore. For books you need page numbers. HaEr48 (talk) 07:25, 13 February 2018 (UTC)--HaEr48 (talk) 06:21, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * the template does not allow for an access date parameter, so I would leave it out for now.1.02 editor (talk) 12:32, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅. Added dates to refs.1.02 editor (talk) 12:32, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
 * A lot of essential info (as I requested above) are still misssing from the citations. See ref 2, 30, 37 and more. Also, please address maintenance tag such as [citation needed], [page needed], replace sources tagged as self-published. HaEr48 (talk) 07:07, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
 * adressed cn tags, couldn't find a page needed tag. 1.02 editor (talk) 07:50, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Someone removed the content that has the page needed. There's still the self-published tag. HaEr48 (talk) 07:10, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅ Removed the ref with the self-published tag completely. I couldn't find any reliable source that gave a comprehensive description of the Punggol Rural Centre, so I rewrote the affected paragraph with earlier refs to place greater focus on the Kangkar/Sengkang area. ~ KN2731 {t ⋅ c} 08:49, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Also I removed the page needed tag after I added the page for the ref . ~ KN2731 {t ⋅ c} 08:56, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I believe all the tags have been dealt with.1.02 editor (talk) 03:50, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Found one more cn but removed the entire statement because it appears unverifiable. Tags should be completely settled now. ~ KN2731 {t ⋅ c} 10:54, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

I updated the bullet points above. Strikethrough means I am satisfied by the update, please look at the rest (in some cases I left new comments). Also, I'm planning to give a second round of comments, maybe tomorrow. HaEr48 (talk) 07:51, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

More questions

 * The "Town of the Seafarer" para mentioned "six neighborhoods", how is this related to the seven subzones? HaEr48 (talk) 05:31, 6 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Of the seven subzones, six are residential subzones, one (STC), isn't 1.02 editor (talk) 06:43, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅ 1.02 editor (talk) 13:08, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Please explain this distinction somewhere? Maybe in the subzones section. 06:13, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅ 1.02 editor (talk) 06:36, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Neither of the cited sources in this paragraph mention this distinction? HaEr48 (talk) 07:08, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm removing this altogether since I can't find anything that distinguishes between commercial and residential subzones. Anyway, I have a hunch that only six subzones are residential since Lorong Halus North doesn't have any residents, but well this is WP:OR. ~ KN2731 {t ⋅ c} 09:43, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that makes sense. But now you need to explain the discrepancy between "the six residential subzones" in para 3 of "History" and the seven subzones in the Subzones section. HaEr48 (talk) 05:59, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Looking at Template:Neighbourhoods of Sengkang New Town I'm pretty sure those are the six "residential subzones". It appears that "neighbourhood" and "subzone" are distinct terms and shouldn't be used interchangeably. However I don't have access to newspapers older than myself (the current cited newspaper articles are only available at certain NLB libraries), so verifying that might take a while. ~ KN2731 {t ⋅ c} 07:03, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
 * After some thought I rephrased it again. Hopefully it works right now. ~ KN2731 {t ⋅ c} 11:13, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

More details needed
Thanks for working on the article. I gave it another read, I think in order to have broad coverage like GAs for places in general it is missing some information ✅ 1.02 editor (talk) 07:53, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Demographics: Please explain the population. Seem you have numbers in the infobox. Also include it in prose, as well as details like race, religion, language, education level, etc. if available.
 * Created a new section for demographics dedicated to those numbers. ~ KN2731 {t ⋅ c} 13:47, 11 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Politics: Other than general election, is there local politics? It doesn't seem like Singapore have mayors, but is there a body that's in charge of local governance?
 * There is a mayor, not of Sengkang but of the North East/Central CDC. The person in charge would be the respective MPs for each area. 1.02 editor (talk) 10:03, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅ 1.02 editor (talk) 10:03, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Geography/notable places: Good job describing the main roads, rivers and public transportation option. But in general, what is in Sengkang? Is it primarily a residential district (looks like it), or business district (e.g. offices)? Number of residential buildings are discussed a bit in history, but maybe a more systematic discussion is needed in Geography as well. HaEr48 (talk) 06:13, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅Its Residential1.02 editor (talk) 10:03, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Regarding citations to The Straits Times
is it possible to locate the cited news articles from the Straits Times in NLB's eResources newspaper archive? Many of them right now are lacking author and/or page, and are also difficult to access. ~ KN2731 {t ⋅ c} 03:24, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

I used ref 53 as a test and discovered that most of the articles either could not be found or can only be accessed from a library. 1.02 editor (talk) 04:12, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Sorry guys might be a bit busy these few weeks. 1.02 editor (talk) 14:58, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Passing
I'm satisfied with the current state of the article, so passing now. Thanks for all who participate. There are some minor fixes to be made to the references. Please include more info for citation 3, 39, 50, 51. Also, please expand acronyms such as HDB, LTA, KKH in citations, because these are not well-known outside Singapore. HaEr48 (talk) 04:35, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Ok Thanks 1.02 editor (talk) 02:33, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your patience with this review! ~ KN2731 {t ⋅ c} 07:58, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks!  User:Anchorvale User talk:Anchorvale  Special:Contributions/Anchorvale  06:46, 5 March 2018 (UTC)