Talk:Separatism/Archive 1

Proposed disambiguation page
Is that not what this page already is? It may not have the standard format but it does the job quite well. Indeed, it does it better than most disambiguation pages do, since it gives useful explanations and does the job more thoroughly. (RJP 4 July 2005 11:12 (UTC))

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that there is a notice at the top of the Seperatism article, saying that there is a proposal that it be seperated into seperate articles? --Munchkinguy 04:07, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Ha ha ha ha...no, you're not. NatusRoma 03:11, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

"Separatism" is loaded language
(Partly copied from my comments on the Aceh article).

Members of various independence, or secessionist if you will, movements find the term "separatism" offensive. People who oppose certain independence movements favour the term, since it gives them an added legitimacy, and/or suggests that said area was always part of whichever state (often not true). Members of independence movements in general should not be confused with armed groups which favour violent insurrection...

I suggest it is only "generally accepted", in that many of the large states of the world have ulterior motives in hanging on to certain territories, and do not wish to give their self-determination movements positive publicity, especially if those territories were annexed in a dubious fashion, or just plain invaded.

p.s. A similar argument could be applied as to the section "Countries which have broken apart due to separatism", which lists the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union was the successor state to the Russian Empire (some would say it was another Russian empire), but it is debatable as to whether it was a "country" or not.


 * I agree. In Quebec, for example, the fact is that the term is very seldom used, if at all, by people in favour of independence, favouring instead "indépendantiste" or "souverainiste". It is, on the other hand, often favoured by the most adamant and intransigent opponents in French, and virtually all opponents in English. I spoke more of this here if you wish to read more.


 * Another article that poses loaded language problems is List of countries where language is a political issue. The importance of independence movements is measured in terms of "gravity". Some other words that are used are the following: "problematic", "serious", "friction", "gravity", "threaten", "contained".


 * Now, what should be done with the Separatism article? The problem is that the word "indépendantiste", that exists in French and in other languages through some equivalent, is more of a neologism in English. Quebec has "sovereigntist", but the word cannot be applied worldwide. Are there any suggestions? Would "Independentism" be acceptable as the title of this article? --Liberlogos 15:39, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

To add or not to add?
Located at this link is talk about the Seperatists that broke off from England. There is very little talk about it here. I believe it needs to be talked about a lot more. --Cyberman 04:28, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * At least talk about it here or add an ambiguation page. --Cyberman 04:30, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Country list of present movements
Why is there a "Separatism" section that repeats badly the effort of the List of active autonomist and secessionist movements article? This section is a repetition, it is incomplete, and it is unbalanced since some extremly small movements are relatively more covered while other more important and more sincere are neglected. I believe that section should be removed. --Liberlogos 20:00, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I changed it a bit.. What do you think? Joffeloff 18:17, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Separatism in Israel/Palestine???
I don't know why jayjp seems to take offense to this information and link. It is not Original Research or POV. It is just relevant information to the subject. Isn't denying political acts of separatism, racism or oppression, just as bad as denying anything else that has happened in world history?

I leave this submission for further review by the wikipedia powers that be:

In 2002, 17 members of the Israeli Parliament supported separatist legislation that would prohibit all Arabs from living on "state-owned" land. BBC World News

Pco 07:08, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Singapore Seperation
Singapore was ejected by the central government of Malaysia, it should not be considered seperatism? notice that it does not celebrate an independence day but a national day (as the date it became a country but not because it won independence but because it lost dependency lol!) Akinkhoo 08:27, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Taiwan
Exactly how should Taiwan be classified? It is diplomaticaly recognized by a few countries. It hasn't formally declared independence. Mainland China declares it a territory in rebellion. Taiwan has been effectively independent of Mainland China but has yet to declare itself independent. Ktbenbrook 01:05, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * I removed it from ==Countries which have independence, but have not declared independence==. When referring to Taiwan as independent, we are really referring to the Republic of China, which did declare itself a sovereign state while Taiwan was still part of Japan. (It was the ROC that was calling the CPC on the mainland 'rebels' (officially until 1991), since in the Chinese Civil War, the Kuomintang had control of the ROC government, and the CPC kicked that government off the mainland to form the People's Republic of China.) Therefore, the notion that "Taiwan is de facto independent but hasn't declared its independence" is really bogus. Either it means the Republic of China or it doesn't. If it does, then it's already a declared state. If it doesn't, then it is subservient to the Republic of China and not de facto independent. It cannot mean both half the way. --Jiang 10:48, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * clearly there is no nation by the name of Taiwan, Taiwan is an island; much like there are hawaiian people and hawaii island and we call them as such. as for ROC, it is diplomaticaly recognized by only mirco-countries that have no influence in the world so that recognization is useless other then as a statisical number. ROC was independent before PRC came into existant, if the KMT leadership didn't start driving the communist party out of ROC; PRC wouldn't have been formed in the 1st place and ROC wouldn't had fought a civil war and lost. Taiwan was never meant to be independent, it was use as a fortress where ROC supporter could be safe. the ROC as the chinese government took the wealth and treasure of china to taiwan. it would be unfair to be able to declared independence after having claim the wealth of china only to cede against it. i would like to see the proindependence people ready go down and address these issues, you can't just inherit the wealth and not the responisbility. Akinkhoo 08:53, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Distinctions
It is unclear what distinctions, if any, Wikipedia draws between "secession", "independence", "home rule", "autonomy", "separatism". Some countries are discussed in both the article on secession and the one on separatism, without any clear analysis of whether the two mean the same or something different. I would say that the term "secession" properly refers to withdrawal from a federation such as the US, Canada, or Australia, not to gaining independence from a unitary state such as the UK or France. "Separatism" can refer to advocacy of independence from any kind of state, but it is often understood as a mildly derogatory term. "Independence movement" is the most neutral term for a movement advocating independence from any kind of state. "Home rule" and "autonomy" generally refer to a degree of self-rule that stops short of complete independence. 86.165.211.143 (talk) 20:20, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Boston Tea Party
Should the movement of the Boston Tea Party be considered as a separatism? dima (talk) 05:10, 15 March 2009 (UTC)


 * What are its explicit goals? More freedom for US citizens? Greater independence for Boston or Mass? Complete secession from union? Depends. CarolMooreDC (talk) 13:47, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * As I remember the history, the explicit goal was No taxation without representation. As I understand, the implicit goal was to withdraw one big colony from the UK, and make an independent country from that colony. I would call it "separatizm". dima (talk) 11:25, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not about what you remember but what you can source with WP:Reliable sources. :-) 23:48, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I provide the wikilinks about the Boston Tea Party and No taxation without representation. Do you need a proof, that both had led to the independence of the USA from the UK? dima (talk) 07:56, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The Boston Tea Party had nothing to do with separatism: it was a protest against unconstitutional taxation, carried out by people who mostly considered themselves loyal British subjects. The Tea Party did set in motion a chain of events that led to the independence of the US, but the event itself had no overt separatist agenda. —Kevin Myers 14:21, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * A relevant reliable source would be some historical reference to separatist demands in organizing the Boston Tea party, etc. If either article has those or you can find them independently they are relevant. But as I remember it few people were thinking independence until Thomas Paine published Common Sense in late 1775. So it becomes most notable after that point, including with that document. CarolMooreDC (talk) 17:12, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Texan separatism?
I'm afraid that Texan separatism doesn't really exist nowadays. Googled the term and got nothing. The link in the reference is dead now, checked it when it worked and basically said, jokingly, that Texans might want independence since they had to pay a lot of taxes to the federal government. I'm removing that item from the list, revert if I'm wrong. --Taraborn (talk) 16:31, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Mexica Movement
Why isn't the Mexica Movement included in this article?69.235.132.123 (talk) 18:51, 2 September 2009 (UTC)James Lopez


 * Because no one has put it in yet. Evidently the article itself also needs some work. CarolMooreDC (talk) 13:03, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Separation only breeds contempt and misunderstanding
Amongst all groups. Which leads to fighting between groups inevitably. Even separatists with the best of intentions that only want peace between all (and I doubt how many of those there really are) will eventually give in to this sort of hate and discrimination. Most cultures today look down on each other and don't understand each other. We can all be proud of our heritage, but fighting progression gets no one anywhere. Unless you want bloodshed. 76.114.42.231 (talk) 06:20, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not a soapbox 76.114.42.231 and not a forum. Please read our talk page guidelines to see how to appropriately use the talk-space and it might be useful for you to review our core principles to understand how exactly this site works.  Comments like the above are considered disruptive and can be removed without discussion. I'm closing this thread per WP:TPG– CarolMooreDC (talk) 15:08, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Synthesis
I have tagged this article for WP:synthesis because it draws conclusions about a multitude of different manifestations, all called in the article "separatism", without a WP:reliable source that says they are in any way related. In other words, the combining of very different things (as different as political and gender interests) are combined in a way that seems to constitute WP:OR. -- Malcolm Schosha (talk) 15:20, 17 April 2009 (UTC)


 * These sources, only a few of hundreds available, obviously show just from their titles that various individuals describe relations between the various elements. #7, 8, 9 especially. Do others think we need more even explicit sources? The more the merrier! It's just a matter of a bit of an internet search.

2. ^ John Leo, “Let the Segregation Commence, Separatist graduations proliferate at UCLA”, City Journal (New York), June 13, 2007 3. ^ Nancy Levit, Embracing Segregation: The Jurisprudence of Choice and Diversity in Race and Sex Separatism in Schools (PDF), University of Illinois Law Review, August 29, 2005, 455. 7. ^ Metta Spencer, Separatism: Democracy and Disintegration, Rowan & Littlefield, 1998, 4,5. 8. ^ Link to: Chima, Jugdep. "Effects of Political Leadership on Ethnic Separatist Movements in India" Paper presented at the annual meeting of the Midwest Political Science Association, Palmer House Hotel, Chicago, IL, Apr 12, 2007 (PDF); Chima, Jugdep. "How Does Political Leadership Affect the Trajectories of Ethnic Separatist Insurgencies?: Comparative Evidence from Movements in India" Paper presented at the annual meeting of the American Political Science Association, Marriott Wardman Park, Omni Shoreham, Washington Hilton, Washington, DC, Sep 01, 2005 (PDF). 9. ^ a b See D.L. Horowitz's “Patterns of Ethnic Separatism,” originally published in Comparative Studies in Society and History, 1981, vol 23, 165-95. Republished in John A. Hall, The State: Critical Concepts, Routledge, 1994. 11. ^ Identity Politics, Stanford University Encyclopedia of Philosophy, November 2, 2007. 15. ^ Saberi Roy, An Analysis of Conflicts Around The World, June 1, 2007. 18. ^ Harold E. Glass, Ethnic Diversity, Elite Accommodation and Federalism in Switzerland, Publius, Vol. 7, No. 4, Federalism and Ethnicity (Autumn, 1977), 31-48. Oxford University Press.
 * Ryan Griffiths, "Globalization, Development and Separatism: The Influence of External and Internal Economic Factors on the Strategy of Separatism" Paper presented at the annual meeting of the ISA's 49th AAnnual Convention, Bridging Multiple Divides, Hilton San Francisco, San Francisco, CA, USA, Mar 26, 2008 (PDF). CarolMooreDC (talk) 17:16, 17 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Then all that is needed is to include that in the lead. It is not there now. Adding that would improve the article because readers can not always be expected to read every ref. If that is added to the lead, the tag can be removed. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 17:26, 17 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Done. CarolMooreDC (talk) 17:08, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Is there a reason why the Politics template is on this article? The article discusses separatism from many aspects, and the focus here does not seem primarily on politics. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 18:18, 4 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Because no one else bothered to put anything else there?It's like the Cycle article only have an astrology project template, except not as rediculous. Put more on if you want them. CarolMooreDC (talk) 01:39, 5 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I see that an Anon IP put a "synthesis" tag on the article and referred to this 1.5 year old discussion. While I can see a few problems that need minor clean up or clarification or better refs, I don't see the synthesis. It's a word used by different groups in different ways and the article reflects that. So will clean up problems I see and if there's no explanation from the anon IP or anyone else in a couple days will remove the tag. CarolMooreDC (talk) 21:49, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Is Sicily in northern Italy??
How can sicilians be in favour of Padanian indipendence?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.33.5.110 (talk) 12:18, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

More separatisms in Italy
South Tyrol should also be mentioned since decided separatist parties obtained 21,5% of the votes in the last regional elections. Cf. Politics of South Tyrol. 178.191.230.81 (talk) 00:48, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Why not Ireland or the USA?
Both of these countries separated from the UK isn't it? --Danbob999 (talk) 17:08, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Definition is: state of cultural, ethnic, tribal, religious, racial, governmental or gender separation from the larger group In both cases we really have decolonization which obviously overlaps with separatism; but these were/are more decolonialist movements. I.E., Irish in Northern Ireland not descended from Brit/Scot colonists want more land/rights/independence/etc. from the ""colonists" based more on their being colonists than their ethnicity/religion, even though those are aggravating factors.  CarolMooreDC 17:59, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I still don't see any clear line between separatism and decolonialism. I think it's all a matter of point of view. Why would current Irish in Northern Ireland be called separatists while those in the Republic of Ireland aren't? Only because because the later achieved independence and the former didn't? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Danbob999 (talk • contribs) 18:09, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Anti-United Nations
Is there any mention of nations separating from the United Nations to form their own coalition? If so then it needs to be stated. --58.7.117.65 (talk) 12:22, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Reasons for opposing separatism?
This article doesn't include any. 71.223.21.33 (talk) 12:04, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Untitled
The section "Racist" Separatism is overtly political and not at all objective. The idea a minority groups desire to separate themselves from their oppressor is an act of racism is a political opinion and should be declared as such in this article. I would like to request that a moderator takes a look at this section and considers changing it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.27.64.71 (talk) 18:47, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Ukraine?
What about the Separatists in Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chakravartin Serapis (talk • contribs) 11:52, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Who defamed per WP:BLP??
At this diff Mais Oui! (or NON in this case) deleted this stating: the reference provided does not support that edit; this is a case of defamation of living people, and is thus subject to WP:BLP)
 * Celtic Nations' in the British Isles separatist movements from the United Kingdom; described variously as Scottish independence, Welsh Nationalism, Irish Republicanism and Cornish Nationalism.

First, the reference is for the fact that they are Celtic nations. Technically every wikilink to a separatist movement could/should have a reference drawn from the relevant article. Is that the point you are making? If so, eliminate EVERY listing of a movement that doesn't have a reference. And WHO is being defamed if one is saying these exist as separatist movements. No one is saying ALL Scots or ALL Welch want their own nations, only that such movements exist. Please explain your reasoning. CarolMooreDC 15:52, 30 January 2012 (UTC)


 * The statement:
 * 'Muslim Separatism is widespread across the world in 21st century. China, Russia, India, Philipines, Thailand, Srilanka and practically every nation with a sizeable Muslim minority has experienced violent attempts at secession'


 * Seems to be pejorative, I'm not sure why Sri Lanka is even mentioned as AFAIK the Tamil Tigers are Hindus — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.209.12.150 (talk) 20:55, 2 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I haven't read whole article lately and agree that statement at least needs a decent source. Will check it out. I see the other person I disagreed with has not responded and another editor has re-added Scots so I will revert to original. CarolMooreDC 21:36, 15 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Islam is a separatistic Religion/Ideology.--Chakravartin Serapis (talk) 11:57, 10 November 2015 (UTC)


 * There are muslims in Sri Lanka Im sure that in few years they would be an Islamic separatist movement — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.19.228.15 (talk) 18:22, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Original research sections
I've tagged "Religious separatism", "Ethnic separatism", and "Geographic and socioeconomic separatism" as violating WP:NOR. Aside from not being defined by reliable sources, the lengthy lists contain few to no academic sources backing up the contention of historical 'movements' defining items in the list as being recognised as separatist in the manner implied by the title of the subheaders. At this stage, having checked the development of the article, they've become WP:OR, WP:POV and current affairs pushes. Please note that this is an encyclopaedic article and WP:NOTNEWS or WP:RECENTISM. Please do not use this article as a WP:COATRACK for promoting personal points of view. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:16, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

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Catalonia
Expand on the Catalonian separatist movement in order to provide a bigger explanation of how geographic separatism takes place and the processes it has to undergo. This could help expand one of the bullet points that is under geographic and socioeconomic separatism.Fireflies350 (talk) 11:07, 26 April 2019 (UTC) Fireflies350
 * I will no longer be editing this section of the article but will leave the suggestion here if someone else wants to focus on it

Governmental Responses
Since this section has mostly bullet points, I want to write it in paragraph form in order for it to look more complete and that the information is throughly developed with the help of different sources. Cheers,Fireflies350 (talk) 09:06, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Separatism in Eastern Ukraine/Crimea?
Why these are even in the list? Even if we ignore the fact that this is a clear russian propaganda, we can't ignore the fact that Crimea and so-called DPR/LPR we're not trying to be separate states, they were always trying to get into russia in the first place. Lvoloshyn (talk) 06:55, 6 October 2022 (UTC)