Talk:Shamanism during the Qing dynasty

Manual of Style
A good start on the article but requires clean up to WP:MOS and WP:MOS-ZH. For example, Shamanism in the Qing dynasty should be bold in the first paragraph, Chinese text should be marked up with or  templates, pinyin should be similarly marked up and needs tone markings, etc. Also the page is an orphan and needs links form other artciles. Rincewind42 (talk) 16:23, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Both MOS problems have been fixed. I'll work on the links.--Khanate General ☪ talk project mongol conquests 02:52, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I removed the Orphan Tag, as there are links. ch (talk) 02:57, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Merge?
This a great new article, but a search shows that there's a stub article for Manchu Shamanism. Is it a candidate for merging into this one?--Khanate General ☪ talk project mongol conquests 02:48, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Manchu Shamanism could be merged but the subject does extend after 1912 down into contemporary China. So I tagged with "issues," namely that the notes are to bare links; the language of the article is only scattered sentence form; not established the nature and importance of the topic.

These could be addressed by a knowledgeable editor rather than deleting or merging the article. ch (talk) 03:28, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * And all this time I had no idea there was an article on Manchu shamanism! Thank you for finding it, KG! But I agree with CH that it should be developed rather than merged. Otherwise this article will have to be expanded to discuss shamanism among the Manchus of the 20th century, which is a whole other issue than Qing shamanism. There should be plenty of content for expanding Manchu shamanism, for instance fieldwork done in the 1910s and 1920 by Russian anthropologist S. M. Shirokogoroff, whose description of Manchu shamanism was very influential in the 20th-century social sciences. (Cross-posted at Talk:Manchu Shamanism.) Madalibi (talk) 03:54, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't think we should merge the two articles. While the Qing dynasty was a Manchu governed dynasty, it encompased other areas where forms of shamanism were common. Shamanism was not only practised by the Manchu during the Qing dynasty. Other ethnic groups within the Qing Empire also took part in shamanism. For example Mongolian shamanism. I think this article needs to make some note of how Mongolian shamanism and others was treated by the Qing and not be exclusive to the Manchu form - though that may be dominant. Rincewind42 (talk) 06:26, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Hmmm, good point. As it is now, the article may be better titled "Manchu shamanism in the Qing dynasty." I'll try to see what I can find on Mongol shamanism in Qing times. Thank you! Madalibi (talk) 06:36, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * On Rincewind42's suggestions, I found the following two articles on Mongolian shamanism in the Qing dynasty:
 * Diószegi, Vilmos (1961). "Problems of Mongolian Shamanism." Acta Ethnografica 10.
 * Hesse, Klaus (1986). "A Note on the Transformation of White, Black and Yellow Shamanism in the History of the Mongols." Studies in History 2 (1): 17–30.
 * Hesse, Klaus (1987). "On the History of Mongolian Shamanism in Anthropological Perspective." Antrhopos 82 (4-6).
 * Heissig, Walther (1953). "A Mongolian Source on the Lamaist Suppression of Shamanism in the 17th Century." Anthropos 48 (3-4).
 * What I can gather without reading the articles is that after Altan Khan converted to Tibetan Buddhism in the 1570s (I think), Tibetan monks started to destroy shamanic shrines, forbid shamanic ceremonies, and persecute shamans in the khan's name. But this all took place before the Qing period. Shamanism must have survived in some form in Mongolia, probably mixed with Tibetan practices, but I'll have to wait till I see these articles to find out. I've never seen anything about what the Qing did to Mongolian shamanism, but that doesn't mean much. Thanks again for this great question! Madalibi (talk) 07:14, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Another article on Mongolian shamanism: Madalibi (talk) 12:44, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Banzarov, B. (1981 [1846]). "The Black Faith or Shamanism among the Mongols." Trans. J. Nattier and J. R. Krueger. Mongolian Studies 7: 53–91.


 * I managed to find one or two of the above sources but only found some very basic info on Mongol shamanism in Qing times. Because none of my secondary sources even mentions Mongol shamanism in Qing times, I'm assuming that the topic holds well as it is, and so I decided to go ahead with the GA nomination. I will see what reviewers think of this issue and try to resolve it accordingly. Madalibi (talk) 10:57, 25 December 2013 (UTC)