Talk:Shay locomotive

Steam Engine at Silver Plume (Colorado)


In July 1977, I took a photo of a steam locomotive at Silver Plume (Colorado). Is this a Shay locomotive? Ion Tichy (talk) 09:48, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
 * No, this is not a Shay locomotive. Peter Horn User talk 05:17, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Operating Shay at Hesston Steam Museum (Indiana)
I posted some pictures and a video of a working Shay (probably Class C) at this location: http://farcepest.blogspot.com/2006/10/weird-gear-driven-steam-locomotive.html I'd be happy to grant Wikipedia rights to any or all of the photos; just contact me. 151.213.154.129 16:58, 30 October 2006 (UTC) Andy Dustman 

Shays in Colorado Railroad Museum
The website http://www.shaylocomotives.com/ reports two Shays stored at the Colorado Railroad Museum, but there is no mention of Shays on the Colorado Musem Website. The Shay Locomotives site may be out of date (and that 20th-century web design only makes that seem more likely)
 * No mention of the Colorado Railroad Museum Peter Horn User talk 05:38, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The location of Ephiram Shay's home is in Harbor Springs, Michigan. There is an open house with trains and the replica of the original Shay Locomotive is out for as a display. Admission is $5.00 a person to go inside the house to see model trains, watch videos, buy things and look at preserved artifacts from the time of Shay Locomotive. In the field across the street are wood burning model trains and small wooden play trains. There is refreshments in front of the house at different loe prices. Come and visit today!

Problem with "Problems" section
Why don't we just delete the whole section? It's unsubstantiated and an expert says it's baloney. Although I don't have any experience with Shays except as a passenger, I note that slip joints in heavily loaded shafts are not uncommon elsewhere, including automotive and marine drive shafts. Given that the torque on a Shay's drive shaft varies dramatically four or six times per revolution, there should be plenty of opportunity for the shaft to slide as required unless it's been allowed to dry out completely.. . . . Jim. . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 22:13, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Very good suggestion, It has JUST been implemented. Wuh  Wuz  Dat  01:54, 24 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I would have done it myself, but I do most of my work in WP:NRHP and lighthouses and I don't like to step into an unfamiliar area with an axe. . . . . Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs)  11:13, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Comments removed from article
There is some information here that is incorrect! Look up the Lima Shay roster Shay #SN3354, in conjunction with the Western Maryland 3 truck Shay #6. Alot believe and state that the Western Maryland #6 is 150 tons, which is the incorrect segment I speak of. This preticular locomotive weighted in at 162 tons (operating weight), making it the heaviest Shay EVER built, which was delivered to the Western Maryland in September of 1945. With the given information of this Shay, it weighted 269,960 pounds, (143.98 tons) Which no steam locomotive operated "empty" and carried 9 tons of coal for fuel, and 6000 gallons of water, (which is 25.05 tons of water) All added up, from fueling this Shay weighed 169.03 tons weight or as stated, 162 tons in opperation to produce over 59,000 pounds of tractive effort. Its opperating weight superceeded the 4 Trucks built before it.

With all this information, this preticular Shay also out weighed the Pacfic Coast type Shays built as well! As it was the last of that exact design seen and taken by personel of Lima Locomotive Works, to build a monsterous Shay of this proportion and weight.

This information is all misleading as they (Lima Locomotive Works) listed this shay as a 150 ton Shay class due to it being thee only Shay of its size ever built, so they did not create a "new" Shay class for it as it was so late in the Shay history and Lima was attempting to phase out of the geared locomotive business at the time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.255.150.151 (talk • contribs) 03:51, 13 February 2010 (moved from article by . . . . Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 14:56, 13 February 2010 (UTC))


 * 71.255.150.151 is essentially correct, although some of his or her conversions are not correct. The 1950-52 Locomotive Cyclopedia {{{cite book|title=1950-52 Locomotive Cyclopedia of American Practice|editor=C.B. Peck|publisher=Simmons-Boardman|location=New York|pages=506-7}}) shows Western Maryland #6 at 324,000 pounds weight, without specifying how much coal and water is included.  The tender capacity is nine tons of coal and 6,000 gallons of water (18,000 and 48,000 pounds, respectively. So, fully loaded, the locomotive weighs somewhere between 324,000 and 390,000 pounds. I'm inclined to believe that the quoted number is fully loaded, so I'd take 324,000 pounds as the loaded weight.


 * However, since we do not know the operating weight of the locomotive that the article's editors believe is the heaviest, the question of whether #6 was in fact the heaviest is unanswered.. . . . Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 14:56, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Westen Maryland Number 6 did weigh in at or near 162 tons in operating trim, however it was classed by Lima as a 150-3 for unknown reasons. WM number 6 also displayed all the features seen in the earlier 90 ton Pacific Coast-type shays, but also for unknown reasons was not classed as PC-type locomotive. Western Maryland number 6 was the largest and heaviest shay to leave Lima's factory, and only by a slim margin, but hand neither the largest cylinders nor the largest drivers applied to a shay. It also did not have the highest boiler pressure ever applied to a shay. Though she was the heaviest shay built AT Lima, she did not exceed many of the four-truck 150-4 shays in physical size. The largest and heaviest shay to ever run was Greenbrier, Cheat, &Elk number 12, which was originally built as a 150-3 shay but was rebuilt by the GC&E shops as a four-trucker by extending her water tank and adding another truck under it. She weighed in at roughly 200 tons after conversion. Number 12 survived the takeover of the GC&E by Mower Lumber Company and worked until the early 1940's, when she collided with a Western Maryland 2-8-0 and bent her frame. Number 12 was stored at Cass for several years along with Number 13, an ex-C&O 150-4 shay, before she was scrapped. As a side note, the most powerful shay ever built, as measured by tractive effort, was Kansas City Southern Number 900, with 72,000 lbs of tractive effort. She also had the largest cylinders (18x20 inches) and the largest drivers (just over 48 inches) ever applied to a shay. She and sister 901 were used to switch trackage around Kansas city, some of which had grades exceeding 10 percent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.40.38.98 (talk) 03:22, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

As an addition to the information above, several new pieces of information have appeared. Western Maryland shay Number 6 (s/n 3354), a Class C 150-3 shay and the last shay built (1945, some eight years after s/n 3353), tipped the scales at 269,960 pounds empty, as built, provided by Shay Locomotives.com and Geared Steam Locomotive Works.com. She carried 9 tons of coal and 6000 gallons of water. Both websites and Robert A. LaMassena's Articulated Steam Locomotives of North America (Sundance Books, 1979) confirm this. However, information regarding her weight conflicts here, as LaMassena gives a weight of 324,000 pounds, or 162 tons exactly. Based on the information from the 1950-52 Locomotive Cyclopedia stated above, it would seem as though the 162 ton mark is No. 6's operating weight. But this presents another conflict, as Kansas City Southern Number 900, also a Class C 150-3 built in 1913 (s/n 2570), left Lima Locomotive Works weighing in at 286,700 pounds, as built, empty, figures provided by Shay Locomotives.com and Geared Steam Locomotive Works.com, making KCS No. 900 the heaviest shay ever to roll off Lima's erecting floor. However, LaMassena gives No. 900's weight as 280,000 pounds, which is in obvious conflict with what Shay Locomotives.com gives. The website gives it's source for technical data as coming from Lima's own spec sheets. LaMassena does not give his sources, so it's hard to say where exactly he got his figures. I would imagine that he would use the same standard (operating vs. empty) for weight throughout the book, though, so it's hard to say with any degree of certainty who is right. It is possible that LaMassena's sources were incorrect to begin with, as he gives information that is incorrect regarding Greenbrier, Cheat & Elk Numbers 12 and 11. LaMassena claims that GC&E No. 11 was rebuilt by the road's Cass, West Virgina shop as a four-truck shay in 1937 and became Mower Lumber Company No. 11 when that firm took over the Cass operation from West Virgina Pulp & Paper Company in 1942, without listing a scrapping date. However, in his book Shay Logging Locomotives At Cass, West Virgina, 1900-60, Philip V. Bagdon notes that GC&E No. 11 was retired in 1931 and scrapped in 1939 along with her sister, shay No. 8, both being Class C 100-3 three-truck shays without ever having been converted. The heaviest work done to No. 11 was the addition of a superheater to the boiler in 1921. It is stated in his book that for a period, perhaps 1922-23, that it was planned to convert shays 8 and 11 to four-truck form but this was never begun due to WVP&PCo buying two ex-Chesapeake & Ohio Class D 150-4 four-truck shays in 1924. It should be noted that Bagdon's work is the definitive authority on geared motive power at Cass prior to the Cass Scenic Railroad in 1963, and his sources are solid. Regarding the largest shay ever, Badgon notes that GC&E No. 12, which was built as a three-truck 150-3 shay in 1921 and converted to a four-truck shay in 1933, weighed in at 197 tons following conversion and and the work added 15 feet to her original 65, making her the largest and heaviest shay ever. Bagdon notes on page 52 of his book that Kyle Neighbors, a Cass old-timer with many WVP&PCo Cass records, was told that No. 12 weighed 197 tons by Cass shop foreman E.J. Shafer, after the weight of all components added during conversion where scaled and tallied up, giving an indication that 42 tons was added to No. 12's original 155 tons. Bagdon states various calculations of her weight range between 192 and 206 tons, but the 197 figure is the most cited and the one with the most evidence. Shay expert George Kadelak's scaling of Lima data concerning No. 12 concurs with that figure. It should be noted that the addition of more weight and a fourth truck did not increase tractive effort, as the added machinery would increase friction, and shay expert Dr. George Deike noted that by adding more weight, that was that much less train weight that the locomotive could pull, on average 42 tons less that No. 12 could as a three-trucker. The main reason for conversion was to allow longer runs between water stops on the run from Cass to Slaty Fork. The wreck that ended her career occurred at Spruce, West Virgina in December of 1942, a low-speed head-end collision with Western Maryland H-8 class 2-8-0 No. 788. The wreck bent her frame and broke her drawhead and brought immediate retirement for No. 12 and she sat at Cass with ex-C&O four-truck shay No. 13 until they were both scrapped in 1957.

In light of the information that has been found, it is the author of this short piece's conclusion that the heaviest shay ever was Greenbrier, Cheat & Elk/Mower Lumber Company shay number 12 after conversion, and that Kansas City Southern shay number 900 was the largest and heaviest shay to leave Lima's shop, and Western Maryland shay number 6 was the heaviest shay in operating trim and the largest and heaviest shay currently in existence.

As a side note, the largest and heaviest narrow-gauge shay ever built was Westside Lumber Company number 10, a 3-foot gauge three-truck shay weighing in at 163,200 pounds and was built by Lima in 1928. This shay now resides at the Yosemite Mountain Sugar Pine Railroad in Fish Camp, California and is used in excursion service. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.40.38.98 (talk) 04:53, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Missing Survivor
The survivors section seems to be missing a locomotive. It is located in the town of Lake Cowichan, British Columbia, Canada. More info here Peter Horn User talk 05:05, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Lack of a scheme
There is a notable lack in description and scheme regarding steam distribution into cylinders and a clear visual explanation about joints and coupling on wheels, any clear description of asymmetrical layout pointing out the cylinders on right side and the boiler shifted to the left side. The article relies too much on "understood" while it's hard to find any Shay locomotive and knowledge about its particular arrangement outside US, for this reason the article needs more simple schemes and simple drawings to show "how it works" - "how it is made" in the spirit of the wikipedia project.--Kiko 64 (talk) 23:29, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Issue with labeling
In the photo of the fireman's side of the Dixiana (shay No. 1 of the Roaring Camp and Big Trees railroad), the photo label shows a feed pump next to the compressor. That pump is actually a twin-piston reciprocating pump used mainly to draw water from creeks and streams to refill the water in the engine's water tank and also to fight small fires, which were common in any logging railroad's operating area in the age of steam. The pumps were also used for many other reasons, notably to transfer fuel from tank cars to static tanks at load outs and reload points served by trucks, which was common in later days of West Coast logging. For boiler feed water, the engines typically relied on a pair lifting injectors, one on either side of the boiler. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.246.64.133 (talk) 13:22, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Gauges?
Were all of these built for sub-standard gauge railroads? All the ones I've ever seen or heard about were for narrow gauges. --RThompson82 (talk) 00:37, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Pruned "link farm" per MOS
I trimmed off a couple, and the link to Cass-Scenic-Railroad-state-park is marginal: it's really a promotion of the state park itself, and the Shay material is pretty well buried.

Which is a shame, because they have some fine videos of Shays in action, such as this one: 3 Shay locos in action -- heh, I looked all over their site for a link, but here it is. I think I'll just sub it for the SP link. Feel free to find some more. --Pete Tillman (talk) 23:08, 22 October 2017 (UTC)


 * OK, here's another generic one:
 * El Dorado Western Railway blog Shay construction number 1896 under restoration
 * I looked for info (briefly) and it's probably there somewhere, but this is a useless link for the average WP user. So, if someone wants to extract a pertinent blog entry or two, or find something better.... CHeers, Pete Tillman (talk) 23:16, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Peter Horn User talk 23:02, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

A problematic conversion
The conversion in this site is problematic. 23 6875" [60 cm] is not quite correct. 23.6875 in 23.6875 in which is close, but not exact. 60 cm 60 cm or 60 cm / 60 cm while . 23:28, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
 * 23 6875 inches equal $23 11/16$ inches Peter Horn User talk 04:58, 28 January 2021 (UTC)