Talk:Sheffield F.C.

Oldest Club
This is apparently disputed.


 * Anon. I assume you mean the recently discovered "The Foot Ball Club of Edinburgh" from 1824. --Revolt (talk) 16:52, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * See link for more >

http://www.nas.gov.uk/about/071112.asp

actually not disputed, the 'Foot Ball' game played in Edinburgh was not football but a form nearer to rugby or Ausralian rules football nothing like soccer —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.24.145.235 (talk) 09:46, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

VfL Bochum, a professional football club in Germany, were founded on 18th February 1849. They even have 1848 in their official name and club badge, the year the club was first proposed. They only took up association football in 1911, but are still playing it today. --Eujin16 (talk) 19:58, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Stadium name
Is it "formally called Coach & Horses Ground" or "**formerly** called..."? Devoxo 11:37, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

150th birthday
"The world's oldest football club, Sheffield FC, celebrates its 150th anniversary with a star-studded event in the city on Wednesday." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/7060059.stm

"it was not until 24 October 1857 that the first organised football club was formed, laying down a new set of rules. From its headquarters in a potting shed and greenhouse, Sheffield FC was born." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/7059900.stm Nanonic 15:12, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Sheffieldfc.jpg
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BetacommandBot (talk) 17:09, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Oldest Club
The above comments that the Foot Ball Club, of Edinburgh, played a form of rugby or Australian rules football are completely unfounded. The only time the ball is referred to as being 'lifted' in the earliest recorded reference to playing rules (1833) within John Hope's Foot Ball Club is when the ball is out of bounds, 'Allow the ball to be lifted between fields'. (The NAS website has wrongly picked up on the handling rule by just referring to 'lifting of the ball'. Hope's philosophy of a primarily non-handling game is echoed years later in his more complete rules of 1854. The relevant extract reads as follows...

'The ball should not be kicked out of bounds. When this occurs, it should be lifted up by the hand, and brought within bounds. The party thus lifting it is entitled to a "free kick", but the ball should not be lifted by the hand from the ground at any other time.'

The NAS are clearly comparing the club with 21st century football (11 aside, goalkeepers etc) when they make the comment 'this was not football in its current form'. Football has greatly evolved from the 1850s and 1860s (as well as the 1820s) to get to the present situation. There is absolutely no evidence that Hope favoured a handling game. While the rugby game takes off in Edinburgh in the decade or so after 1855 (through the conversion of the city's private schools to the Rugby school code) Hope is not connected to the 'handling game' in any way and, indeed, actually associates himself with Edinburgh's first Association club in 1873.

It is also important to remember that the early Association game was a hybrid style utilising rugby methods along with what we would recognise as Association football today. Heavy charging was a feature of the game and the weight and power of players was as important as speed and skill.

Indeed it could be argued that the early 1860s Association game had similarities with both Australian rules and rugby football - 1) players had to remain behind the ball to be onside 2) If the ball was kicked into the air players could catch it and kick it on 3) if the ball went wide of the goal posts and an attacking player touched it a free kick at goal was awarded (in rugby this was called a 'try at goal' with the rugby players taking a free kick at the goal), 4) no goalkeepers mentioned in the rules 5) with no cross bars goals could be scored with the ball passing between the posts at any height. Sheffield itself had some far reaching ideas, including the use of cross bars, but the club also adopted the fair catch, allowed for the ball to be hit or knocked on with the hand, and allowed for pushing - areas which are quite removed from the modern rules of football. The 1825 letter quoted by the NAS refers to kicking of shins and tumbling but this of course was the kind of game in vogue in the 1860s. Even though the FA Laws banned hacking, rough play remains a prominent feature of football during the 1860s and 1870s and Arthur Kinnaird (a future President of the FA) was a particular devotee of this tactic.

The original Sheffield Foot Ball Club and Glasgow's Queen's Park actually share some similarities with the Foot Ball Club of Edinburgh - during the formative years of both clubs, when they struggled to find other teams to play, the members were divided up into teams - precisely the method adopted by the Edinburgh organisation. Numbers could be quite large - 20 a side for Sheffield while Queen's actually played 20 aside in its first 'challenge' match in 1868 (the NAS article refers to a game involving 39 players - almost 20 aside). The 1824 club clearly was set up for the recreational amusement of its members - similar to the original aims of Sheffield and Queen's who both championed amateurism.

This is totally irrelevant...everyone knows there were clubs from the 1820s/1830s and older playing "foot ball" but having as little in common with the present association football as to be meaningless in a soccer context. But that's not even the point...the irrelevance is that this team no longer exists Sheffield FC do and are thus the world's oldest football club. Typical bloody Scots sticking their noses in as usual... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.140.89.195 (talk) 21:21, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

The Edinburgh club was being dismissed without proper foundation at the top of the page, my post (above) was pointing this out and was suggesting a process of evolution linking the development of football through the early clubs. But as you raise the point about 'bloody Scots sticking their nose in as usual' (rather an arrogant turn of phrase to use against your northern neighbours - it implies that we have no business in claiming a place in the development of football) perhaps I should point out that Sheffield has on its badge "The World's First Football Club" and markets itself worldwide using this title when there is documented evidence which can be viewed at the National Archives of Scotland saying quite the opposite.

Please could you quantify the following assertion made in your response. '..everyone knows that there were "clubs" from the 1820s/1830s and older..' Really - is there documented evidence to suggest other football clubs from this period? There are certainly games being played between different sides but I have never seen reference to "football clubs". Is there any factual evidence at all for this? It seems that John Hope's Foot Ball Club is irrelvant to you simply because it is from Edinburgh and not Sheffield. Football was not "born" in 1857 with the birth of Sheffield FC, or in 1863 with the foundation of the FA or later in 1872 when the first official international match took place. It was not born either in 1824 when Hope created his club. The modern game has evolved over the last two centuries or more (and continues to do so) and these early events are certainly important milestones in the process - the fact that the 1824 club is a milestone makes it very relevant to the story. I expect that this line of argument has created such a hostile response because it does not conform to the anglo-centric view of the development of football and hence the implication is made of 'Scots sticking their noses in'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.133.31.202 (talk) 12:54, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Image change
I have removed the image previously identified as a Sheffield team photo from 1857, as it is now known (and confirmed by the club themselves) that this photo is in fact not of the Sheffield club at all. See historicalkits.co.uk, specifically the listings for 9th, 10th and 15th October. Luckily I found another vintage image with which to replace it..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:33, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

The photo that's up now is not of a Sheffield team! That's Kinnaird on the extreme left, with the beard. Bottom right is Charley Chenery, the England player. Neither of them played for any Sheffield teams. This is probably a photo of a London team... Cris Freddi — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.99.201.56 (talk) 11:42, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Links to "activ" websites
I have removed the "activsheffield" link per the external links policy. These have been removed from many other pages as well, due to the small amount of genuinely useful information contained therein, plus the sheer amount of advertising. Please look here, to see this being discussed elsewhere. Willdow (Talk) 11:02, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

External links modified
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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
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