Talk:Shipbuilding/Archives/2012

1. Trees for Ancient Ships

 * The lands bordering the Mediterranean Sea in southern Europe, north Africa, and western Asia are home to the Mediterranean basin ecoregions, which together constitute world's largest and most diverse mediterranean climate region of the world, with generally mild, rainy winters and hot, dry summers. The Mediterranean basin's mosaic of Mediterranean forests, woodlands, and shrub are home to 13,000 endemic species. The Mediterranean basin is also one of the world's most endangered biogeographic regions; only 4% of the region's original vegetation remains, and human activities, including overgrazing, deforestation, and conversion of lands for pasture, agriculture, or urbanization, have degraded much of the region. Formerly the region was mostly covered with forests and woodlands, but heavy human use has reduced much of the region to the sclerophyll shrublands. See Palearctic.


 * While the earliest example of deforestation is unclear (i.e., origin of the Sahara Desert. See deforestation), it is an established fact that man-made desertification often arises from the demands of increased populations that settle on the land in order to grow crops and graze animals. See Desertification.


 * Morocco bears evidence of Southwest Iberian Mediterranean sclerophyllous and mixed forests, Mediterranean acacia-argania dry woodlands and succulent thickets, Mediterranean dry woodlands and steppe, Mediterranean woodlands and forests, North Saharan steppe and woodlands. Western Sahara also is home to North Saharan steppe and woodlands. And Algeria and Tunisia are also home to Mediterranean dry woodlands and steppe, and Mediterranean woodlands and forests. Although all but Morocco bear evidence of Saharan halophytics (flooded grasslands and savannas). See Mediterranean forests, woodlands, and shrub and Flooded grasslands and savannas.


 * However, perhaps the most notable would be the Mediterranean conifer and mixed forest regions that may be found in Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia. See Temperate coniferous forests.


 *  Apparently, the Sahara was a perfectly bountiful region in prehistory for shipbuilding. Humans have lived here for almost 500,000 years. During the last Ice Age, the Sahara was a much wetter place, much like East Africa, than it is today. Crocodiles and other river animals once swam above the sandy dunes. Fossils of dinosaurs have also been found here. But it all dried up in 3000 BC ... probably not only because of subtle climatic changes but also because of ancient deforestation by those ancient indigenous peoples who just didn't know any better.

2. Seafaring is far older than we have all been led to believe.

 * Reading Lothal makes this plain ... clearly.


 * An ancient society of the Indus Valley Civilization that not only engages in Dentistry as early as 3300 BC but also seafaring and dredging canals  in the same time period speaks to us loudly over the millenia ... telling us that someone ... somewhere conquered and eliminated great civilizations over the grand course of Ancient Human History and took their great technological advances from them.


 * Ancient Egypt is another such example. (Perhaps others too disappeared without a trace? But we'll never know for certain.)


 * Motor and Engine Technology is Older than this Timeline Indicates may be appropriate to consult here.

3. But where did all the ancient ships go?

 * Reading Irish news headlines from leading Irish newspapers, one wonders why so m-m-a-a-a-n-n-n-n-y-y-y-y-y ancient ships -- twelve thousand, 12000, of them! -- all sank and piled up in one oceanic location ... and why would they all rest off the coast of Ireland?? 


 * Reading Raceandhistory.com, one wonders even more.


 * Reading Slavery and recalling the extreme hate of all our ancestors toward others of different colors and/or beliefs throughout all of Human History -- prehistoric, ancient, medieval, colonial -- one recognizes what a successful ancient conqueror (yes, the Romans) might have conspired to do. See Military history of the Roman Empire and Roman Empire.

4. But History clearly shows us that any successful conqueror would likely have behaved as this.

 * It just so happens that they were Roman.

-- Roylee

Prejudiced opinion about the success of Korean ship builders
I think it is entirely ridiculous to attribute the success of Korean ship builders to the state subsidies. Korean ship yards have labour cost advantages as well as advanced technologies as demonstrated by LNG ships. I will change this part of the article unless someone engages in discussion soon about this.


 * Correct, but they have respectable production methods, in addition. LNG ships is not the only case. They have been demonstrating outstanding production techniques for at least 20 years.

I remember news reports that subsidies were at times so extreme that the ships were sold for less than material value. 87.79.54.46 (talk) 22:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Modern shipbuilding
Q: How can anyone design anything with a basin? Is it comfortable? Should I try?

China
I just added the paragraph on China.--PericlesofAthens 04:12, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Nice bottom
Since I can't find Swallow, worth a mention she was first to have her copper bottom sheathing entirely fastened with copper bolts, 1770? Montgomery Savage, Man of Copper 11:03, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Update
Please update the statistics about largest producers to something after 2004. Tango —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.27.181.79 (talk) 17:37, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Shipwrights in England
I just do not see the purpose of this section in the article. It is out of context because it talks about the development of shipbuilding, reaching metal ships in 1843 then suddenly a section of totally unnecessary writings come out. It does not fit the international picture of shipbuilding. Suspicion of a non-neutral motivation. It to be deleted but if anybody sees any justification for it, (I suspect it would not be because this is about international shipbuilding not just about England.) undo the deletion and create a separate section with a clear link and significance to the development of shipbuilding as a whole. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.105.145.97 (talk) 01:46, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

UPDATE: still waiting for a justification for this section- I see that the edit was undone without any notification- maybe the 'mods' or the person who undone it are biased. Give me the justification of this section and I'll just be quiet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.105.161.65 (talk) 18:07, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Merge
I suggest a merge with boat building as both a boat and ship are the same (see the Ship and/or boat article). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.246.172.105 (talk) 11:07, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Move
I suggest renaming and redesigning the page to Commercial boat building. Boat building may be renamed (perhaps) to Amateur boat building 81.246.179.173 (talk) 17:10, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

typo
taiwan is listed as 629 tons a year gross tonnage but it is way offPeppermintschnapps (talk) 01:36, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Shipbuilder Ranking
I doubt the table with the ranking of shipbuilding countries is right. Check out the Data of Lloyds Register http://shipbuildinghistory.com/world/statistics/world.htm - in 2004 the Japanese Production of merchant ships over 100gt still had a share of some 30% of the market. Newest data I have (in japanese undfortunately :http://www.sajn.or.jp/pdf/Shipbuilding_Statistics_Sep2009.pdf, page 5) says that Japan had a share of 27,6% on commercial vessels in 2008.

I'm not an expert in shipbuilding though, and I also see a good chance that I misunderstood something, so I won't edit. Hope someone with more knowledge on the subject can comment though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.220.251.72 (talk) 12:27, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Kelts
Caesar writes about naval battles with the Kelts and their advanced ocean-going ships. 71.22.155.114 (talk) 11:43, 8 February 2012 (UTC)