Talk:Shivkar Bapuji Talpade

Shivkar Bapuji Talpade
Created this article, there are claims that this person is the first to have flown an unmanned plane at the year 1895 in Chowpati beach, Mumbai(Bombay), India in front of a huge crowd. BalanceΩrestored Talk 06:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It is 1895! Not some 500 years ago. It was in Mumbai. If it was well publicised and drew a huge crowd, there must be wide news coverage. ChandlerMinh (talk) 00:45, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

ok
looking into this, it seems this is a bona fide aviation pioneer who attempted to build a plane. Claims that the plane did take off are not verifiable today, but a model of the plane seems to survive. The Ufologist bullshit surrounding this should be sectioned off as a separate topic. --dab (𒁳) 09:04, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, do you have something that has crossed checked your claim that the plane did not take off?? Something that's WP:V???, You need to edit those own wordings of yours.  BalanceΩrestored '''Talk 10:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Lighter-Than-Air
"It is unclear whether Talpade's craft has managed to take off, and if so, whether it qualified as heavier-than-air."
 * This is a new science to study now. If somehow this plane was lighter than air using Mercury it is indeed something that non still have.. Cheers :) 09:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * where is our first reference for the "mercury" claim? the earliest is this "Ancient Astronaut Society" article of 1997 quoted by Knapp. We have no idea what this plane looked like, all we have is ufologist madness. It may be that this is a bona fide aviation pioneer, but we'll need better references. Velakara's book you found at woldcatlibraries seems to be a reasonable source, but probably not easy to lay hands on. Judging from the Times of India article, Velkara's book quotes a student of Talpade's claiming the thing took off. That's hardly independent confirmation. If you tie a chunk of mercury to a hot air balloon, that's still "lighter-than-air", even if you imagine your balloon is "mercury vortex powered". dab (𒁳) 10:51, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Interesting topic. It is unfortunate that the surrounding pseudo-scientific and nationalistic fluff makes it so difficult to reliably determine what Talpade's genuine achievements might have been. Abecedare 14:50, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Source for the 1895 demonstration
apparently the source for the demonstration witnessed by the Maharaja is a Kesari article. The Deccan Herald article references it, but doesn't identify the edition. It also states that the Kesari article doesn't identify the date. Needless to say, Kesari is no credible source, and paints the whole thing with a crackpot national mysticist tinge from the very beginning. If we want to evaluate if such a demonstration has ever taken place, we'll need to As long as we don't have such evidence, we'll have to consider the flight demonstration an urban legend. The ToI article seems to confirm that there is actually a surviving model of the aircraft, but as long as we don't have a description of the model, we cannot judge what kind of flight it would have been capable of, if any. The ToI innocently and cluelessly parrots the "solar energy combined with mercury" crackpottery, so we can be sure the journalist had not seen the craft or talked to anybody who knew anything about aviation. Our best bet will be the "recent exhibition on flying at Vile Parle where a model of 'Marutsakha' was exhibited". If that exhibition can be verified, it may be possible to get into contact with somebody involved and ask them for pointers to this model.
 * 1) identify the original Kesari article
 * 2) look for other contemporary accounts: if this demonstration had really been successful and attended by the Maharaja, there would have been non-crackpot newspaper accounts

Why is Kesari not a credible source? So anyone talking against the british rule now has a mystical crackpot nationalist tinge??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.184.13.251 (talk) 05:29, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

You need to realise, that in ufology it is perfectly normal to simply make up claims, and misquote people as you see fit. A beautiful example is the "Alexander's UFO" described at Vimana: an alleged historical account was simply made up by some guy in 1959. The claim was not just (a) taken for granted without reference by later authors, but also (b) modified with every repetition, so that by now, you can find at least five mutually contradictory accounts. In Ufology, the question is never "is it true", but "who came up with it, and how was it modified subsequently". --dab (𒁳) 13:33, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

at least "former principal defence scientific officer D. H. Bedekar" seems to exist:. Unfortunately, no email address. If we could contact this chap, he might be able to point us to information. If we really want to research this, our best bet would be to find a Wikipedian resident in Mumbai willing to try and contact this Pradeep Vijayakar character of TNN Mumbai (by now (2006-08) apparently president of Mumbai Press Club) and ask him about that "recent exhibition", or try to contact Vile Parle local authorities it. the contact address of the club is pclub at vsnl.com or pressclubmumbai at yahoo.com. But their website seems to be chronically broken. Maybe some Hindi speaker could email them and ask them for Vijayakar's email. He probably won't be able to remember much about this 2004 article (on which he evidently did shoddy research), but he might be able to cough up details on that mysterious exhibition. dab (𒁳) 13:53, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I have been in contact with a researcher in India who claims to have seen the original Kesari (newspaper) article in Sanskrit, in the holdings of the HAL Aerospace Museum as part of a traveling exhibit. He identifies a "Times of India(TOI)-Bombay state edition:english" article but states that he's not yet seen the document nor gotten an exact citation.  I don't know how much of the 19th century archives of The Times of India have been digitized, but I imagine that searching within a few days of the alleged flight date should yield some results.  But he provides a third source that should be much easier to track down: The Times (I hope, when he said "London Times" that he meant The Times of London,) vol. 28 no. 7, issue of 16-Feb-1974, a photograph of which appears at  in the context of a Quora discussion.  How accurate that newspaper report might have been, almost eighty years after the fact, I couldn't say, but it's certainly worth reading. --Eliyahu S Talk 00:03, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

More
Hi guys I know this discussion is old for you but whoever wrote this article first, can you tell us about the first reference you've made to "Asia:Asian Quarterly of Culture And Synthesis, American Asiatic Association, Published 1942, Page 40" Where did you find this and can you lead us to a copy. It would be invaluable. A friend and I have been working on this. We're in Bombay. For the record:- We've read Pratap velkar's book We've met D.H. bedekar The craft, if it flew, was lighter than air since it employed hydrogen to fill the bag An exact diagram or model of the craft is unavailable And the important scientific question is related to mercury as a fuel rather than the phenomenon of flight Most newspaper articles on the subject endlessly repeat teh same mistakes as each other and have used each other as sources. None of those journalists have done any legwork on this. If you lead us to that article i've mentioned upstairs it might help us go forward

thanks cheers Karan A Makhija (talk) 17:23, 28 August 2008 (UTC) Karan A Makhija

Deccan Herald Source
Hundred years after Orville Wright’s first flight, K R N SWAMY remembers Shivkur Bapuji Talpade, the Indian who flew an unmanned aircraft, eight years before Wright http://archive.deccanherald.com/Deccanherald/dec16/snt2.asp It mentions "scholarly audience headed by the famous Indian judge/ nationalist/ Mahadeva Govin-da Ranade and H H Sayaji Rao Gaekwad Talpade had the good fortune to see his un manned aircraft named as ‘Marutsakthi’ take off, fly to a height of 1500 feet and then fall down to earth." Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 17:49, 16 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Unmanned aircrafts existed decades before Talpade was even born. 137.97.80.132 (talk) 07:24, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Protected
I've protected the article and reverted to what seems to be the pre-edit war version. Please discuss your differences on the talk page, get consensus, and then add material to the article. --regentspark (comment) 15:00, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Not the first unmanned flight and obviously not the first manned flight
I doubt that the editors who don't understand this will read this page, but it wasn't a manned flight and there were earlier unmanned flights. If the Wright brothers had visited India and copied it, then of course I doubt they would have built the plane they did with an entirely different propulsion system. Dougweller (talk) 16:42, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I changed:
 * "He lived in Mumbai, and is claimed to have constructed and flown an unmanned, heavier-than-air aircraft in 1895. Contemporary accounts of a successful flight do not exist, and no reliable historical records document its existence."
 * To:
 * "He lived in Mumbai, and is claimed to have constructed an unmanned, heavier-than-air aircraft in 1895. However, he remained unsuccessful in his attempts to fly an aircraft."
 * What was wrong about it? Wikipedia is not for fact-checking. Since he remained unsuccessful with regards to the aircraft then it needs to be directly mentioned instead of talking about lack of evidence about the false claims that have been made about him by fringe hoaxers. Editorkamran (talk) 13:51, 18 August 2023 (UTC)


 * We have sources that state that Talpade was claimed to have built an aircraft. We don't have any source that confirms that he built one, let alone made any attempts to fly it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:57, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Indeed. He is claimed to have created an aircraft but overall he could never fly any of them. To say "Contemporary accounts of a successful flight do not exist, and no reliable historical records document its existence" clearly indicates that there is a serious debate regarding this issue. There is none! Editorkamran (talk) 14:11, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Your edit stated that Talpade made "attempts to fly an aircraft". We have no reliable source stating that Talpade ever made any such attempts. If you want to propose a change of text, please ensure it conforms to what the sources say, and doesn't contain unsourced implications. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:24, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Kindly read this article and let me know what you would like to conclude. It notes:
 * "When Velkar eventually tracked down the research papers written by Talpade to the possession of a scientist named G.H. Bedekar, Bedekar said that the papers only reveal that Talpade had failed in his efforts.
 * We should not teach our students that Talpade flew an airplane. In the absence of concrete evidence, we shouldn’t even teach them that Talpade succeeded because it is only a disputed moment of success. We should teach them that Talpade tried, which is more important." Editorkamran (talk) 11:27, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * That is an opinion piece, an argument about Indian politics and education, making a point by discussing Indian discourse over Talpade. Vasudevan Mukunth isn't a historian, and doesn't claim to be. Nothing in the article is new. And nor would the article support anything of substance anyway. It notes multiple contradictions in accounts, and certainly doesn't state as fact that Talpade ever built a manned aircraft. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:17, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Not an opinion piece but the author is not an historian. The Wire is WP:RS though and the disputed claim is not backed with any reliable source.
 * I am doubting the notability of this subject at this stage. When I attempted to search details about this person from the period before propaganda wave, I could find nothing substantial. A source from 1954 mentions him, but it is also insignificant. It was mainly after the release of the 2015 movie, Hawaizaada that he started receiving substantial coverage.
 * Since the minimal coverage revolves around legitimacy of his unmanned airplane, I think we have a case for WP:AFD. Views? Editorkamran (talk) 12:41, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * "Among the believers of the Hindu right, this absence of evidence is attributed to British control over the media, which seemingly edited Talpade’s invention out of history. But reports of the flight that do exist began proliferating just over a century later, in the 2000s, at the beginning of the fertile, ongoing period of the expansion of the economy and the reinvention of the Indian past."
 * I guess my research is correct. Editorkamran (talk) 12:41, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * If you wish to nominate the article for deletion, nothing is stopping you. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:53, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Are there ANY hints that this story is not completely made up?
Take this article and you would suppose there is a strong tendency in India to deny science and adopt religious "inventors" or "engineers" who have often left only very sparse traces, if any at all.

Is there at least a proof that the person existed? --Ghettobuoy (talk) 08:19, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
 * You have read this source yourself and you can see the source itself treats this subject as a mere Hindutva revisionist claim. Can you show evidence from any source during his own lifetime to prove this subject as something more than a revisionist claim? Abhishek0831996 (talk) 04:42, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Sure, I've read the source; what does that have to do with anything? I reverted you because you don't have consensus for a reframing, and you did the reframing very poorly. If we're reframing this, it needs to be written as an article about the pseudohistorical narrative, not as a biography with "in the revisionist claims" prefixed. And you need consensus first. Vanamonde (Talk) 06:32, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
 * In that case you could have done rewording. What do you suggest? Abhishek0831996 (talk) 15:03, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
 * No, because the change doesn't have consensus, because I don't support it precisely because of the difficulty of framing it meaningfully, and because it's not my responsibility to fix someone else's edits. Let me ask this. If we were to reframe it, is there current content you want to remove, and is there new content you want to add? If so, let's discuss that content first. If not, why do you care about reframing anyway? The present text is very clear in saying that the story has no historical basis. No source explicitly supports the version you wrote. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:54, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Oldest source for the existence of this person is fringe Vaimānika Shāstra which was itself published in 1952. By using photo, biographical categories and giving this article a biographical look, we are not being honest to the fact that this whole subject is a Hindutva fake history. Editorkamran (talk) 07:37, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
 * You brought that argument to AfD and DRV, and it did not find consensus. Can you please answer the questions relevant to framing this? Okay, you don't want biographical categories, but that's a triviality; and unless you can show the image isn't genuine, it would belong in a reframed article too. Vanamonde (Talk) 14:21, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The undated image comes from "aryamantavya.in", an outright Hindutva garbage blog. It has no authenticity. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 02:41, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I've had my doubts about the image too. It should probably be removed, regardless of what else needs revising. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:48, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Alright, no objections to removing the image. The article probably requires a hidden note asking editors not to replace it. do you have any opinions about the reframing question? Vanamonde (Talk) 03:37, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
 * It is hard to comment on an abstract proposal, and while I can certainly see the argument that this article is more about the unverified claims concerning Talpade's 'flight' than the man himself, it isn't really clear how the article structure should be changed to reflect this. The version here was rightly reverted in my opinion, as it isn't really supported by the sources cited. Questionable claims about pre-Wright-brothers flights have been made in all sorts of contexts, in many different countries, and not all of them have been directly motivated by specific political ideologies. Hindutva exploits the Talpade claims, certainly, but I don't think we should be suggesting that the claims are directly a product of it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:40, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Source was correctly represented. The cited source talks about this "claim" is part of "yet another reversion to the Raj mentality". This whole claim is just a politically motivated claim by Hindutva activists so why it shouldn't be treated as such? Abhishek0831996 (talk) 06:04, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Because you can't find a reliable source stating that I presume. Doug Weller  talk 12:43, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
 * This source attributes it to Hindu nationalists. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 15:52, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Please read that source more carefully; it does not say what you think it does. It attributes several fringe beliefs around that narrative to Hindu nationalists, but not Talpade's existence, nor the origin of the narrative. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:29, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @Vanamonde93 Looks like a source we could use elsewhere, but not here.  Doug Weller  talk 16:49, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
 * indeed: I've long wanted to write an article about Hindutva historiography, and this could be useful; and indeed a sentence or two about the claims made in the present day wouldn't be out of place, but I don't think we can use this source to frame the article, it's too sparse on the details. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:51, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes. Good for something else, not this article. Doug Weller  talk 19:25, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Proposal
Given the discussion above, I propose this:


 * Removal of image (already agreed).
 * Removal of all biographical categories (already agreed).
 * Removal of Shivkar Bapuji Talpade section since it depends on an unreliable book Pathare Prabhuncha Itihaas published in 1997.
 * New lead.

The new lead should be:-

"Shivkar Bāpuji Talpade is said to be an Indian instructor with an interest in Sanskrit and aviation. Hindutva activists claim he had constructed and flown an unmanned, heavier-than-air aircraft in 1895. Contemporary accounts of such successful flight do not exist, and no reliable historical records document its existence."

Views? Editorkamran (talk) 16:06, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
 * There isn't a source attributing the narrative directly and solely to Hindutva activists. Vanamonde (Talk) 23:47, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Replace "Hindutva activists claim" to "It is claimed"? Abhishek0831996 (talk) 02:34, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * No, because we shouldn't be using the passive voice in that way; it's vague to the point of meaninglessness (who made the claim?). I've made an attempt to add more critical material to the lead. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:01, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * First lets discuss your new edits. "These included the pseudo-scientific claim that Talpade had "invented the modern aircraft" is giving weight to a false claim despite it was already debunked on the lead. "adherents of the nationalist right-wing" should be "adherents of the Hindu nationalist right-wing". Abhishek0831996 (talk) 12:16, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Source for that specific change? Doug Weller  talk 13:48, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
 * This one. It is already cited on the lead. "Among the believers of the Hindu right, this absence of evidence is attributed to British control over the media, which seemingly edited Talpade’s invention out of history. But reports of the flight that do exist began proliferating just over a century later, in the 2000s". Abhishek0831996 (talk) 15:29, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm okay changing this to "Hindu nationalist right-wing". Your claims that a sentence that describes how a narrative is false is somehow giving weight to that narrative are completely baffling though. The text is doing the opposite. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:39, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
 * When we already have "Contemporary accounts of a successful flight do not exist, and no reliable historical records document its existence" then why do we need "These included the pseudo-scientific claim that Talpade had "invented the modern aircraft"? Abhishek0831996 (talk) 16:54, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Edit re: Talpade's flight and Wright brothers
I plan to make this edit: "P.V. Vartak writes in his book Vaastav Ramayana that Talpade managed to successfully build an aircraft that flew based on actual design from Raja Bhoja's Samarangana Sutradhara. He states that the Wright brothers purchased the aircraft design from Talpade and that Talpade was the first person to lay claim to a successful flight several years before the Wright brothers." Here are links to publishing houses that have published Vartak's books and also scientific journals where he is referenced such as Journal of Oriental Institute and Indian Journal of History of Science. Reason for giving these links is to show Vartak is RS. https://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks:1&q=%22Padmakar+Vishnu+Vartak%22+-wikipedia http://www.bookwellpublications.com http://www.bkpbooks.com https://www.bookganga.com/eBooks/Books/Index?PID=5063737727570943757

Kindly discuss here if anyone has any objection to this edit, otherwise I will go ahead and make the change. ga11 (talk) 21:43, 25 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Still not a reliable source. A brief mention doesn't make him reliable, especially when you can't see the context. Eg, a possible context is "Among those fringe writers are....". You are showing us self-published books by other authors, a book called "Tellings and Texts: Music, Literature and Performance in North India" which mentions reading a paper about embryology by him, etc. And there is of course no evidence that the Wrights bought some sort of lighter than air design from anyone. You might also read WP:UNDUE.  Doug Weller  talk 10:04, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

You can add any context you wish and publish the edit. ga11 (talk) 16:31, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The onus is on you to establish consensus for the changes you want, and to demonstrate that the sources you are using are reliable and intellectually independent of their subject. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:39, 26 August 2020 (UTC)


 * I don't see the need for this content. The article is already borderline undue and this will make it only more so. Plus, of course, P. V. Vartak is no expert and should not be quoted in the article. --RegentsPark (comment) 17:52, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

User:Gauri a11 ChandlerMinh (talk) 00:36, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

What is wrong with people like ga11 ? ChandlerMinh (talk) 00:41, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 November 2021
Contemporary records for first flight of his aircraft were published in Bombay Gazette and A later article published in Times.

Reference: http://nebula.wsimg.com/26927e907225de45e7a64703748b16ff?AccessKeyId=FF4BA3566F5CC083D176&disposition=0&alloworigin=1 Vedicgyan (talk) 02:44, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * It is not clear what change you wish to see in the article. Please clearly indicate the change (e.g., change "X" to "Y"). --RegentsPark (comment) 03:35, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Vimanika Shastra supposedly wasn't around then
Odd how nobody writing about this seems to mention the obvious discrepancy that Mr. Talpade's research was supposed to have been inspired by a book that was supposed to have been written nine years after the attempted flight. It seems like, either the mentions of Vimanika Shastra are a mistake (either made up out of whole cloth, or maybe they meant Samarangana Sutradhara which apparently has a mention of mercury-filled chambers that sounds much more like the descriptions of Talpade's aircraft), or the Vimanika Shastra is older than it's generally thought to be, if only by a few years. Wombat140 (talk) 23:18, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Apparently, some of the references say that he got information from the author of Vimanika Shastra (presumably before he published the book), not from Vimanika Shastra itself, so, since they contradict each other, I've taken the liberty of using the version that makes mathematical sense - also replaced the reference to Doniger misquoting Mukunda et al. (saying that Vimanika Shastra said Talpade's aircraft didn't fly) with one directly to Mukunda et al. (saying that Shastry's autobiography said it). By the way, this article seems to be in a bit of a mess at present - the amputation of the biographical notes (why was that?  It leaves the article sort of lopsided) has left it with some mentions of 'Velkar' without saying who Velkar is.  Wombat140 (talk) 01:15, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I had noticed the discrepancy, but to my knowledge nobody discusses it explicitly, and as such we cannot either. I am okay with relying on Mukunda here, however. The biographical material was trimmed as the result of a very rough consensus here, following extended discussion at AfD/DRV. The references to Velkar could probably be handled via copyediting. The article should probably be renamed and reframed. If and when I find the time, I intend to do so. Vanamonde (Talk) 08:29, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Good job looking after this article.  (Your username seems appropriate for looking after a mad science article!  :-D )  It seems like, it's annoying because the real story (or what there seems to be a reasonable amount of evidence is the real story) is actually more or less ascertainable and quite interesting and quite a few people do seem to be interested in it and looking for information about it, but it can't be discussed because there aren't any sources for it of the kind Wikipedia uses - I've had much the same problem with Royal Rife. Wombat140 (talk) 01:55, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Unreferenced statements
People have often been putting claims into this article without any references, which other people have quickly removed because they haven't got any references.

This is a misunderstanding of how Wikipedia works. Wikipedia is second-hand information compiled from other published sources. You can't just add your own opinion. If you want to put something in the article, you have to give a reference to a 'reliable' published source (e.g. book, scientific journal article, reputable newspaper or news website) that says so. The 'Reliable sources' page has more information about what Wikipedia counts as a 'reliable source'.

You can use the 'Cite' button at the right-hand side at the top of the edit box to add references and have it automatically format them and add them to the references list.

This rule is awkward sometimes. It seems like, this page is an example of that, because there isn't much information about Talpade and his aircraft in any sources of the kind that Wikipedia uses. It seems like, the rule is necessary, though, because, since anyone can edit Wikipedia, if sources didn't have to be given for information then anyone could just put in any old thing and Wikipedia would be full of things that people had just made up for a joke. Wombat140 (talk) 03:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)