Talk:Sidi Ould Cheikh Abdallahi

I'm pretty sure calling him a corrupt politician is not the Wikipedia way... Please correct this.

Ould
This part seems to be in all but two guys at Category:Mauritanian politicians, is it a title like 'sir', is there a whole lot of nepotism going on, or is it a west african version of the al- or el- in Arabic? Chris 07:44, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I think Ould means "son of" in the form of Arabic spoken there. --Cam 23:25, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Sidi
Sidi is a masculine title of respect in Western Arabic. Unless it is part of his given name, we really need to remove it and revert to name only as per WP:MOS about honorifics-Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom doesn't have her queenly title, and Akihito isn't referred to imperially in his namespace. Chris 07:49, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
 * You're right. The same it true for cheikh.  The article should be renamed to Mohamed Abdallahi.--71.108.23.100 (talk) 20:07, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. Debresser (talk) 10:49, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Moved back. As per discussion below. Which was quite conclusive. Read it and learn. Like I did. Debresser (talk) 14:33, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

NPOV (Neutral Point Of View)
This is to discuss the edits of Thunder2009 and the need to adher to neutral wording and reflect all information in a neutral way. This includes representing all significant information and views available from reliable sources. The latter stipulation (about reliable sources) is especially important in biographies of living persons. The relevant policy is located at Neutral point of view and also at Biographies of living persons.

I don't mind most of the rewriting, and adding additional information is always good (if relevant and sourced), but I didn't understand the removal of the following sentence "Abdallahi was accused of engaging in corruption while serving in this post and was imprisoned". The source was mentioned in the article under the name.

Additional sources for this information are, , and. We should have this according to Wikipedia policy. Debresser (talk) 11:14, 28 April 2009 (UTC) BTW, this article is not acceptable as a source, since it is based in part on Wikipedia.

It seems that the sources mention corruption charges mostly. About the imprisonment I don't know. It seems to mention corruption in connection with his wife mostly. Frankly, I'm not an interested party, I just noticed the removal of sourced information and nothing else being mentioned on the subject. Somebody should look into it, rephrase the text according to the available sources, and put it in.

It is accepted to have a section called "Controversies" in Wikipedia articles. Of course, good sourcing and a neutral wording are prerequisites of such a section even more than usual. Debresser (talk) 11:24, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Debresser - here is the problem that I have with the corruption piece: Sidi Mohamed was never charged with corruption.  Most recently, the General (who led the coup d'etat, Mohamed Ould Abdel Aziz) tried repeatedly after the coup to force the Mauritanian judicial body to lodge charges against the President (Sidi Mohamed Ould Cheikh Abdallahi, his wife and his adult male children); however, 1) the "charges" were only in the media and he was categorically unable to substantiate them and 2)  faced with failure on this front - i.e. his inability to find any behavior that would allow him to substantiate charges, General Abdel Aziz removed President Ould Cheikh Abdallahi to his village (Lemden) under house arrest (the Mauritanian form of jail for high ranking officials).  A similar situation occurred under the Dictator Ould Taya when Sidi Mohamed refused to cave into special business interests that were focussed on lining their pockets by overselling Mauritanian fishing interests to Europeans, particularly the French - a situation about which Sidi Mohamed Ould Cheikh Abdallahi "blew the whistle".  Once again, as with the naming protocol (see below) it is difficult to properly convey what is truly happening in Mauritania in short order because of the complexity of the situation and the tendency of the Mauritanians to use the media to "lodge" unofficial charges when they can't make official charges stick.  Most western writers do not take the time to understand this complexity and they report what they read in the French language press often managed by the dictator of the day. So reporting that a mutineer "charged" the President with corruption is both incorrect and potentially libelous.  Just because it showed up in the Mauritanian press does not make it so.  That an illegal junta government attempts to put the legitimate president on trial for corruption is rather transparent, in my opinion, and once again, as time has proven, these trumped up charges were just that.  No trial ever took place, indeed, no further action has occurred other than of course General Ould Abdel Aziz sent the President to his home village (and out of Nouakchott, the capital city).  YET the Wikipedia article continues to say that President Ould Cheikh Abdallahi was charged and would be put on trial AND it is "documented" by an article which is unavailable (the link is no longer there - see reference #38) which gives the casual reader a picture of a President deposed as a result of corruption - when in fact, President Sidi Mohamed Ould Cheikh Abdallahi is the first freely elected president of this West African nation (so certified by international election observers).  He has led an exemplary career based on his integrity, transparency and fair dealing. This does not impress me as a NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW at all.Thunder2009 (talk) 12:30, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Names of Arab-Moor West Africans of the State of Mauritania
I think you must be very careful not to apply western rules to African names. Your elimination of the the word "Ould" is incorrect as is your elimination of the title of "Sidi". Because of the repetition of naming in West African culture (and to an equal extent names in other Arab cultures) you have stripped Sidi Mohamed Ould Cheikh Abdallahi of his name and identity by calling him Mohamed Abdallahi - no one who knows anything about Mauritania would have the slightest clue to whom you are referring. The Mauritanians call Sidi Mohamed (his first name), just that or Ould Cheikh Abdallahi (his last name). I realize that it is cumbersome in the American/Western world to add all of these identifiers - however to refer to Sidi Mohamed Ould Cheikh Abdallahi as Mohamed Abdallahi is both confusing and incorrect and you will be referring more properly to some unknown relative of his.

The SON of Sidi Mohamed will be (if his name is Mohamed) Mohamed ould Sidi Mohamed Cheikh Abdallahi. Most precisely - this would be Mohamed (his given name - in the western sense), son of ("ould"), Sidi Mohamed - the family of Cheikh Abdallahi - which is a different family than that of Abdallahi.

Once again, if you wish to be correct, you must be careful not to apply western rules to African names. Calling Sidi Mohamed Ould Cheikh Abdallahi - Mohamed Abdallahi - is the same thought process that changed thousands of names on Ellis Island to generic "American" names. Mohamed Abdallahi is not the same person as Sidi Mohamed Ould Cheikh Abdallahi.Thunder2009 (talk) 11:47, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I understand your point. I am Dutch, and my surname is De Bresser (with capital "D"). When used together with my given name it is David de Bresser (with small "d"). Nevertheless, most English publications will refer to me as de Bresser without the capital.


 * At the same time please have a look at Mahatma Gandhi, which is the name he is know by over the whole world, and nevertheless the article is named Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi with an explanation that "he is commonly known around the world as Mahatma Gandhi (Sanskrit: महात्मा mahātmā or "Great Soul", an honorific)". It would be right to explain in the lead of this article the meaning of Sidi (honorific) and Ould (son of).


 * So after all has been said it is more a matter of convention than of logic. Debresser (talk) 15:00, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I appreciate what you are saying however, the difference is that Sidi Mohamed Ould Cheikh Abdallahi is the man's official name - the name on his passport - the name on the election ballot - etc. It seems a little odd to change the man's name as the result of a convention. I notified the family regarding this issue and this is the response I received..."Well, i thought wikipedia was a palce where people could edit articles. I guess it's not so. Anyway for an elected president, to change his official name is just ridiculous." Thunder2009 (talk) 02:25, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * By the way - if you are interested in changing people's given names - please also change Mohamed Ould Abdel Aziz, Zeine Ould Zeidane, Sidi Mohamed Ould Boubacar, Maaouya Ould Sid'Ahmed Taya, Moktar Ould Daddah (the first president after independence), his brother Ahmed Ould Daddah and any other Mauritanians of Arab-Berber extraction that have entries in Wikipedia and which use "ould" or "sidi" or "cheikh". Also - please change the name of Cheikh Anta Diop, the Senegalese historian and anthropologist and the university that is named after him - Cheikh Anta Diop University - as a matter of Western convention of course.  Thank you. Thunder2009 (talk) 02:51, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Interesting. Please give me a week or so to discuss this point in a broader forum. I'll return to you here. Debresser (talk) 11:21, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Tell me, please. Is "Cheikh" related to/derived from the word Sheikh? Would all suns of Sidi Mohamed Ould Cheikh Abdallahi have the surname Ould Cheikh Abdallahi, or just one of them? Would a sun of Sidi Mohamed Ould Cheikh Abdallahi be called Sidi Mohamed Ould Sidi Mohamed Cheikh Abdallahi if he were respected? Debresser (talk) 12:08, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your consideration on this important point. The name "Cheikh" may have at some point in the West African history have similar origins to Sheikh.  I am not qualified to say really.  I think a West African linguist may be a better source for that word derivative.  It seems like a natural.  However, just as it would be incorrect to call me patrician from which my name is derived, it would be incorrect - and possibly offensive to use the spelling of either Shake or Sheikh when referring to a West African.  You begin to get into some very delicate cultural differentiations here.  The spelling "Shake" I have often seen with the Pakistanis in America.  The spelling of "Sheikh" I have typically seen with the Arabs of the Arabian Peninsula and "Cheikh" with the West Africans (though it may extend to other countries in Africa - on this point I am not sure.)  What I can tell you is that the FAMILY name is Cheikh Abdallahi and Sidi's children both men and women use "Cheikh Abdallahi".  It should be noted that the women will use "Mint" "Cheikh Abdallahi" to indicate that she is the daughter of the Cheikh Abdallahi family while the men will use "Ould" Cheikh Abdallahi.  THE Cheikh (head) of the Abdallahi family was a religious guru who lived during the late 1800's and spent a great deal of time and travel between Senegal and Mauritania spreading the word of Tijani/Malaki Islam.  And this is how you will find families who are "Abdallahi" and families who are "Cheikh Abdallahi".  As to the name "Sidi", though the literal translation is "lord" - like many of these words it has come into general use as a name and is often found in the families of the nobility of the Arab-Berbers of Northwest Africa - though not exclusively.  Sidi Mohamed is the man's first name and to which he has answered since he was a little boy. The answer to your second question (above) is no.  Sidi Mohamed has a first son named Mohamed - his name is Mohamed Ould Sidi Mohamed Cheikh Abdallahi (and he is quite respected as the first male heir).  He (the son) may shorten it to Mohamed Ould Cheikh Abdallahi for convenience but when introducing himself he will introduce himself as Mohamed Ould Sidi Mohamed Ould Cheikh Abdallahi.


 * Once again thank you for your consideration. Thunder2009 (talk) 13:05, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your answers. Thay have proven quite conclusively that the move of this page was a mistake. Apart from that a simple search on Google told me that he is known by the name Sidi Mohamed Ould Cheikh Abdallahi a lot more than by Mohamed Abdallahi. And one of the general guidelines is: use the name most familiar to the English speaker. Debresser (talk) 14:32, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I do appreciate your attention to this matter.  May I suggest one further thing - you have change his name to Sidi Ould Cheikh Abdallahi.  His first name is Sidi MOHAMED Ould Cheikh Abdallahi.  I think you probably just forgot to put in the "Mohamed".  Thanks again.Thunder2009 (talk) 01:17, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

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