Talk:Silver Brumby

Cream is palomino
Cream is a layman's term for the color of a pale palomino. Pale palominos can have white winter coats, and cream coats in summer. They never achieve the golden color often attributed to palominos. Having been a pony breeder, I have seen this occur first hand often enough. The palominos I have seen/bred were born with pale skin and blue eyes. Their skin darkens, and their eyes turn brown as they age. They never achieved a rich, golden color, remaining cream throughout their lives.

Nonetheless, that doesn't mean Thowra and his mother were pure palomino. In the story it is said Thowra has a "Dun colored filly, almost golden." The dun gene is not related to the palomino/dilute gene. It is possible that, in the story, a buckskin has been incorrectly called a dun, as one variation of the dun looks quite similar to a buckskin. It is also possible Thowra carried both dilute and dun genes.

What one has to remember is that when these stories were written, the study of genetics was not as advanced, and indeed Elyne Mitchell didn't hold fast to the principles anyway. "Brumbies of the Night" which was written in 1996, when more genetic information was available, features red-eyed albinos. The existence of such horses is anecdotal at best. Geneticists state that such a coloration simply does not exist in horses. Some reading on the matter: http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/white.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Otherunicorn (talk • contribs) 02:27, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

originally grey not palomino
The original cover art shows Thowra and indeed all the 'silver' brumbies as greys not palominos. Original Cover Art The assumption of palomino, erroneously stated in this article, is a late addition from the 1970s. There is no suggestion of these horses being palominos in the text.

There is a misunderstanding about the nature of grey horses by the contributors. The grey colouring is caused by progressive silvering of the coloured hairs of the coat. 'Greys' start life any base colour depending on other colour genes present and it does not affect the skin or eye colour. Thowra's skin is described as black. Their adult hair coat is white, dappled, or white intermingled with hairs of other colours. White hairs begin to appear at or shortly after birth and become progressively lighter as the horse ages. Cremellos have pink skin, Thowra is described as having dark skin so he cannot be cremello.Horse Genetics by author Glynis Scott GavinCorder (talk) 19:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Nowhere in the book does it say that the skin is dark Thowra (talk) 07:12, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Read the books again love! ;-) GavinCorder (talk) 17:02, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

The covers of the books are hardly a way to judge the color of the horses in the story. The "original cover art" was in fact a very deep blue wash over a photo of some wild ponies. Later paperback art varied, some being artistic copies of some photographs. It is quite possible these were arranged by the publisher without any input from Elyne. Otherunicorn (talk) 05:07, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Thowra cannot be a cremello
It's genetically impossible for him to be a cremello, since his sire is a chestnut and his dam is a palomino. The only two color options out of that are palomino or chestnut. Even if his dam was a cremello, the only possible options are palomino and chestnut. A cremello has two copies of cream (CrCr) and two copies of chestnut (ee). A palomino has one cream (cr Cr) and two of chestnut (ee). A chestnut is just ee. A palomino can pass on the cream 50% of the time, (when bred to a chestnut) which will lead to either palomino or chestnut. A cremello will pass cream on 100% of the time, and when bred to a chestnut will always produce palomino. It is impossible for a cremello to produce a cremello when bred to a chestnut.

See for more clarification: http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/colors/cream.html http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/ecg_basics2.html

Whomever wrote : Although it seems impossible for Thowra to be a cremello because his sire is a chestnut and his dam is a palomino, cremellos can be produced by crossing a palomino with sorrel, a bright chesnut. Indeed Yarraman is a bright chestnut stallion as in the first book it states 'in a real fight that might prove to be an advantage over the bright chestnut.' (which I reverted) is completely incorrect. To be cremello, you need 2 copies of cream. A chestnut has no cream. Palomino has 1 copy. It's genetically impossible for a cremello to be produced from a palomino to chestnut breeding.

In my opinion, Thowra is an extremely light palomino, as they can come almost as light as a cremello (but with the darker skin and eyes.)

Narmowen (talk) 02:12, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

A sorrel cannot carry cream. A sorrel with cream is called Palomino (also known as a "creamy" or "cream"). By the consensus of some major color breeders in equine colors, Thowra is a pale palomino (like Cloud, a wild mustang who appears white.) (I know message boards aren't good for referencing, but this is just because I found it interesting: http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse-forums/imaginary-horse-breeding-color-question-278756.html )

It's already been said that it's written what his sire was a flaxen chestnut (which is not cream, nor palomino), which would make Thowra either a chestnut or palomino. Sorrel and chestnut are two words for the same thing- a red horse. (aka ee, not EE as a black horse.)   Narmowen (talk) 03:45, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Bel Bel is Cream
Thowra's dam is cream, not palomino. It says so in the book, and very frequently so ('On this night, Bel Bel, the cream brumby mare...' 'he kept thinking of what Bel Bel would say to such a foolhardy expedition as this - and yet he knew she would understand. She was cream herself and could appreciate how lovely...') Also, from reading 'The Ultimate Encyclopedia of Horse Breeds and Horse Care' (by Judith Draper, Hermes House 2002,2004) page 156 deals with the palomino colouring, and supports the fact that sorrels can be produced by crossing two palomino genes (25% chance). Now, crossing two palominos also produces a cream (25% chance), so therefore Yarraman, possibly carrying 2 palomino genes, Bel Bel being cream, Thowra may be a cremello.

Even if Bel Bel is palomino (the book does not say so) the palomino genes crossed with Yarraman's will be able to produce a cremello. Thowra (talk) 07:01, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

The book that you have is completely incorrect. Look at the web links I posted, which are uptodate with information. Two sorrels aka chestnuts CANNOT produce a palomino, because neither carry cream, which is the cause of palomino. There is no such thing as a "palomino gene". Narmowen (talk) 23:06, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

You can't base the information on what your opinion is. The book has been published, obviously people have checked it. Has it ever occurred to you that sometimes websites can be wrong? You can't jump to such comclusions. Otherwise, I may as well say 'you are completely wrong.' But I don't, because there is a possibility that you are corrrect. I don't make such direct and blunt statements. Another problem: Two sorrels? Ummm, who's the other sorrel? I thought you said there was only one? Thowra (talk) 07:01, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

It's not my opinion. It's the facts. Yes, it has. But I'm talking about VERIFIED equine genetics pages. Such as the following:

http://www.animalgenetics.us/Equine.htm

http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/equinecolor.html

How about wikipedia's own site? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equine_coat_color_genetics and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cream_gene  "Horses that have the cream gene in addition to a base coat color that is chestnut will become palomino if they are heterozygous, having one copy of the cream gene, or cremello, if they are homozygous."

Your comments of " Thowra's father, may be part sorrel and part cream, since in The Silver Brumby, Yarraman has a cream mane and tail, in Silver Brumby's Daughter, Yarraman's grandson Spear is described as having a cream mane and tail, and in Silver Brumbies Of the South and Silver Brumby Kingdom Yaralala, a great-granddaughter of Yarraman, is also described as having a cream mane and tail. Yarraman is part sorrel, a bright chestnut, because in the early chapter of The Silver Brumby there is a line which says 'in a real fight that might prove to be an advantage over the bright chestnut.' Sorrels are able to carry the cream gene." are entire incorrect, as stated above. A sorrel CANNOT carry cream. A sorrel with cream is a palomino. It's been stated in a different edit that Yarraman is a FLAXEN chestnut, which is completely different than a palomino. They can look identical, but they are different.

http://www.bookrags.com/wiki/Silver_Brumby "Thowra is the main character of the books. He is a beautiful isabella palomino stallion, son of the chestnut stallion Yarraman and creamy mare Bel Bel. Being born in storm, his dam named him the Aboriginal word for 'Wind' not only for the gale outside when he was born, but because she was worried he would have to be as fast as the wind to remain free. The majority of brumbies in the southern areas of Australia being black, bay, grey and chestnut, the appearance of a cream horse causes quite a stir among wild herds and humans alike. Thowra is met with open hostility from other horses, stallions in particular, while the men of the mountains quickly become obsessed with trying to capture him. In order to survive, Thowra is forced to have to become stronger than both horse and man.During this battle to become stronger, he is gived much advice from his mother,Bel Bel who is also a creamy coated horse. Due to the poetic license of the word ‘silver’ used to describe Thowra and his offspring it has mislead some fans into believing that they are a pale grey, despite the fact they are described as ‘cream‘ just as often. The author Elyne Mitchell herself and the leading fan site have stated that this is not so. If Thowra were indeed grey, Cloud and his grey mares would have the same significance, as would Boon Boon. Thowra has also been represented in both the movie and cartoon series as light palomino, not grey or white. The most likely explanation would be that the reference refers to the silver dapple gene in horses which turns the mane and tail white and would account for the majority of silver references being used to describe that area."

At the time the books were published, Cremellos were considered ALBINO, not CREAM. From (The Book of Horses and Horsemanship by Griffen) published in 1963: "

"Scientists are inclined to believe that Palominos contain a dilution factor in their genetic make-up which tens to dissolve their color when they are mate. Breeders agree that "golden horses" com chiefly from three matings: Palomino to sorrel (this produces the highest percentage - 50 percent); Palomino to Palomino; and albino to chestnut or sorrel.

The Palomino seems to be a close relative of the albino, for when two Palominos are bred together it is not unusual for them to produce an albino with its white eyes, pink-white skin and white feet.""

Narmowen (talk) 16:19, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a completely reliable source, because everyone is free to edit information, like we are currently doing. So therefore, people who have been reading this page for the past few weeks will get very confused, because they will not know if Thowra is cream or palomino. HOWEVER I think this is getting pointless, arguing over which sources are correct, so I have a compromise which I think will keep both of us happy: You can write the colouring part, because that way only one person writes and it doesn't get on anyone's nerves, as long as the following quotes appear:

"There he sat on his tame black horse, the sleepy-looking, very young man, who suddenly became wide awake as he saw below him, on a carpet of snow daisies, a good-looking bay colt and the supremely beautiful creamy." "The cattle told the brumbies, so that they too knew, all over the mountains, the tales of the wild cream brumby." "Bel Bel, who was growing old, knew that she would indeed live on in her cream son."

I don't mind what you say, it could be something like: "although the book implies that Thowra is cream (quotes) genetically is is impossible...etc" I have temporarily deleted that passage that both of us have been editing, so that we can both come to an agreement. To make it simple: you write and put in the quotes. Is that reasonable enough? I'm happy as long as the quotes are there. :) I think we should both calm down... Thowra (talk) 22:47, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I'll write my bit here, and you can put it in the article if you find it acceptable. (Good compromise, I think.)

Here's what I think should be in there:

Thowra's color is described as a "cream color", which is genetically impossible. At the time of publication, multiple colors were described using the same name (such as cremello being called albino), which leads to the problem of correctly describing Thowra's color, due to the unknown color of his dam and sire. Although his sire is described as a flaxen sorrel *not sure if this is the exact wording*, he could also be a dark palomino or champagne. His dam is simply described as "cream", which could be cremello (usually called "white" or albino at the time of publication), palomino, smokey cream, or champagne. Thowra's potential color possibilites include a wide range of colors, including isabella palomino (an extremely pale palomino), palomino, cremello, smokey cream and combinations of multiple color genes. In the movie released in the mid 1990's, the horse that was chosen to play Thowra was a bright palomino, which may simply be artistic license.

Narmowen (talk) 03:52, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I really like that. Sorry for being snappy earlier, I'm a stubborn person :) Thowra (talk) 05:03, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Having not already read any books in the series, and knowing nothing about equine nomenclature or genetics, this article is essentially unreadable to me. I didn't come to this article to find out what precise color the horses are or how many foals they have, I wanted a high-level encyclopedia view, and that's not especially present. For example, it's not clear whether the horses in the book are depicted as talking, and it's not clear whether non-horse animals are at the same communication level as horses. 24.61.207.84 (talk) 16:01, 16 May 2016 (UTC)