Talk:Singapore–United States relations

Untitled
I placed the POV tag when creating the article because it is pasted from a US government website. Because this comes from a US govt source it may not be neutral, but I don't have the expertise to judge. (Hopefully others that know more will simply remove the tag if they think the article looks okay.) Mangostar (talk) 04:47, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The content appears fully neutral, but it's significantly incomplete. I've removed the POV tag and added a Stub tag.--Columbia clipper (talk) 04:24, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

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 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.pmo.gov.sg/News/Speeches/Prime+Minister/Speech+by+PM+Lee+at+the+Internal+Security+Department+60th+Anniversary+Dinner.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090517172601/http://www.usaid.gov/az/xeberlerac74.html?article_id=20070706030807039&page=0309&lang=eng to http://www.usaid.gov/az/xeberlerac74.html?article_id=20070706030807039&page=0309&lang=eng
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100108201055/http://app.mfa.gov.sg/generator/asppages/washington/ambassador.asp to http://app.mfa.gov.sg/generator/asppages/washington/ambassador.asp

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Improvement dispute
I think that the edit made by is generally an improvement, however the "timeline" of leaders is poorly executed (I don't think it meets WP:ACCESSIBILITY) and I question the relevance of the Transportation section. , do you object to all of the changes? Some? Or just to massive changes without checking with other editors here first? Schazjmd  (talk)  19:02, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't particularly care subject wise (definitely not an area I even edit in) but it appeared to be largely unsourced and quite frankly, ugly in the middle of the page. I also object to mass changes in such articles without discussion. Praxidicae (talk) 19:04, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Also pretty heavy on the POV: Singapore and the United States share a very close and excellent diplomatic and military relationship, and the two nations are bound together by an overlap in religion, a common language and legal system. Today, large numbers of American and Singaporean expatriates live and work in each other's countries due to the relatively easy freedom of movement established between the two countries.Praxidicae (talk) 19:05, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I was just coming back to say the two nations are bound together by an overlap in religion, a common language and legal system. in the lead is not supported by the article. Yes, some POV that should be cleaned up., would you like to discuss the specific changes you want to make to the article and explain why you believe they're an improvement? Schazjmd   (talk)  19:32, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Since has chosen to edit war rather than discuss (they just put back a bunch of the disputed edits), I'm out. Schazjmd  (talk)  19:54, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I guess so much for consensus and discussion. Praxidicae (talk) 19:58, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I've self reverted, apologies for not seeing the ping. I'm content in removing edits that might violate NPOV. It's just hard to find the sources in relation to this topic sometimes. IMO, I don't see anything problematic in the country comparisons and transportation sections but if there's anything that needs to be changed I'd be glad to hear it. Telsho (talk) 20:03, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Per WP:V, if you can't find sources, it can't be included. Praxidicae (talk) 20:13, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Alright, I'll use the sandbox and get back on this in the future. Telsho (talk) 20:24, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

my issue is the massive amount of unsourced text, but really any 20k addition of text (almost equal to what was already here) from a one day old account on a major article warrants special attention and talk page discussion. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 20:29, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

and others, Draft – Removed the transportation section and the timeline of leaders, with some copy-editing previously. Thoughts? Telsho (talk) 21:08, 13 August 2020 (UTC) Well? If there doesn't seem to be any urgent objections of any sort I'll go ahead and make these changes first. If there are any minor tweaks that needs to be addressed just respond here to discuss a conesnsus instead of making huge reverts. Thanks. Telsho (talk) 11:06, 14 August 2020 (UTC) I've also removed the parts that were unattributed from Lee Kuan Yew. Telsho (talk) 14:48, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I doubt there are any concerns about the table or images (though I am speaking only for myself). But for rewritten text, I think there are both sourcing and potentially copyright concerns. I would recommend breaking your large proposed edit into pieces, bringing in the wording here for us to discuss them separately (which is more manageable), and then reinstating if/when consensus is achieved on them. Grandpallama (talk) 15:30, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I would keep the Lee Hsien Loong quotes out, they don’t really seem to add much and it could look like weird boosterism at a time when the PM is under tremendous internal pressure due to continued anti-democratic activities, family scandals, etc. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 16:30, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Hmm Lee Hsien Loong's quote were already there before I started editing the article, but I guess I'll remove it since it doesn't really add much to the subsection. I've also edited parts of the lead section to prevent any copyvio. Telsho (talk) 17:03, 14 August 2020 (UTC) Any objections to the current draft? Telsho (talk) 12:27, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * To repeat what I said above, I would recommend breaking your large proposed edit into pieces, bringing in the wording here for us to discuss them separately (which is more manageable), and then reinstating if/when consensus is achieved on them. Commenting on a draft in a sandbox is too difficult, in part because we can't easily see the text changes. Grandpallama (talk) 14:51, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Alright. Thoughts if I added just the country comparsion section as well as images of the leaders meeting for a start? Doesn't seem to be much of an issue over there and it looks alright to me. Telsho (talk) 15:52, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * No objection here, but it needs sourcing, and I'm pinging Schazjmd, who mentioned something about accessibility, which is admittedly not a facet of these tables with which I profess to have any expertise. Grandpallama (talk) 01:41, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , my accessibility objection was to the "Leaders of Singapore and the United States since 1965:" timeline (can be seen in this diff). I don't have a great deal of knowledge about accessibility requirements, but I know the timeline failed in that regard. Schazjmd   (talk)  06:06, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * @Schazjmd I see your objections, but the reason I've added that was because it seems to be a common theme throughout similar articles, as we can see here, here, here and many more. Telsho (talk) 07:54, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , all of those examples violate WP:ACCESSIBILITY. Please continue with your content discussion, I won't be participating here. Schazjmd   (talk)  08:00, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Very well, I'll leave the timeline out. Telsho (talk) 08:02, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * we still have massive amounts of unsourced text and you put in the quotes I had specifically objected to. You did not have consenus for those additions. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 15:24, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Horse Eye Jack There were 2 LHL's quotes, you gotta be more specific. I left out the one in relation to the Hendrickson affair, you didn't mention you were referring to the one about Hurricane Katrina. And which texts were unsourced? You're reverting more than intended, yet again. Why did you remove the portals, country comparisons, images, the 2018 Summit (which were well sourced) etc? What exactly are you objecting, besides the quote? Telsho (talk) 16:31, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I reverted everything becasue you have yet to get a WP:CONSENSUS on it and appear to be ignoring the concerns of other editors re WP:ACCESSIBILITY et cetera. As far as I can tell the Hendrickson affair quote isnt part of your edits and I've never objected to it, its presence on the page appears to pre-date the existance of your account. Is this something you added using a different account? Horse Eye Jack (talk) 16:39, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Are you going to assume good faith going forward and actually discuss improving this article or is this subtle hostility going to continue, accusing me of having a previous account? I did not ignore Schazjmd's concern of WP:ACCESSIBILITY in regards to the leaders timeline, which is why I never added it back, and Grandpallama had no qualms with me adding the country comparisons and the images of leaders. Furthermore, if every edit is going to require a "consensus", even minor edits or obvious common sense ones such as linking the article to the country portals, we're going to be here for months. So what exactly is it that you want, or not revert, from my edits, and how long are you going to hold this grudge? Telsho (talk) 17:41, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Why did you again undertake a major rewrite of the article without gaining consensus (despite the edit summary)? I twice told you that you needed to bring your proposed text to the talkpage, which you have not done. Your edits have been objected to, and El_C very clearly told you that the onus is on you to gain that consensus. You cannot simply reinsert material that has raised concerns and expect that it will not be reverted; your response to HEJ that There were 2 LHL's quotes, you gotta be more specific illustrates the point of not working through the text here, first. Quit adding material that doesn't have consensus; it's not HEJ's job to sort through your edits and only revert some of them, when you are the one bundling them all together.
 * Also, I rather pointedly told you that the country comparison needs sourcing, not that I had no qualms about it. Grandpallama (talk) 09:52, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Sourcing added. Telsho (talk) 10:43, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

October 2020
Hi Drmies, I see you removed the country comparisons section. Please take a look at articles such as Taiwan–United States relations, United Kingdom–United States relations, Germany–United States relations, Russia–United States relations, China–United States relations, and many more. Country comparisons are really common throughout articles such as these, and its inclusion are pretty informative within the topic. I don't see why it should make any difference here. Thanks. Telsho (talk) 01:18, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I saw there are way too many of them, thanks. Drmies (talk) 01:21, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Its inclusion was to maintain consistency, and they were not more than what is shown on other similar articles. Removing them here would suggest that it's justified to remove them on other articles as well for similar reasons, which obviously would end up in a lot of useful information being removed. Telsho (talk) 01:29, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I see you removed them as well, I guess there's that. Telsho (talk) 01:30, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Yep, Telsho, there's that. At least some of those were added by a longterm disruptive editor, they never came with any explanation or argument, and why would we do that in the first place? I mean, the coats of arms and flags, who cares and what is the relevance of it? I've seen comparisons between a country and the EU, where lists of "important cities" are given--for what? I appreciate the idea that we should be consistent--but in this case, the better consistency is to remove that information. BTW I worked on a whole bunch of these articles a decade ago, and that stuff wasn't there at the time. Drmies (talk) 01:47, 8 October 2020 (UTC)