Talk:Slave states and free states

"Funny" sentence at the end of 1st paragraph
"The District of Columbia also remained part of the Union." This is the sentence I describe as "funny". As the seat of the government of United States, the District of Columbia is placed directly under the authority of the Congress and couldn't secede from the Union. This sentence is unneccesary and I've remove it. Joshua Chiew 15:40, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Delaware?
According to the Delaware page, that state rejected the 13th Amendment on 18Feb1865, and did not abolish slavery during the Civil War. The Thirteenth Amendment page also states that Delaware remained a slave state. In contrast, the Emancipation Proclamation page states that only Kentucky still had slaves. Can anyone definitively resolve whether Delaware abolished slavery before the enactment of the 13th Amendment? Bo Lawler 25Sep06 — Preceding undated comment added 14:17, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


 * no it did not. There were about 1000 slaves left when the 13 Amdt freed them in December 1865. (ref: Slavery in the South: A State-By-State History. by John O. Allen & Clayton E. Jewett 2004. Page : 48.) Rjensen 11:58, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

"was abolished by the Emancipation Proclamation"
I believe this should be clarified as having ended slavery only in the "rebel" states (aimed to disrupt their war-fighting capacity). Slavery was not ended nationally until the Constitution was amended after the War. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.186.161.244 (talk) 06:35, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Defining slave states
An editor has attempted to classify New Jersey as a slave state because a few individuals had not been totally freed under the states's gradual emancipation statutes. Of course, in the rancorous debates over slavery nobody at the time ever lumped New Jersey in with the slave states and no historian that I am aware of attempts to do so. The fact that NJ did have these few individuals is already included in the paragraph that the editor attempted to change. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 15:59, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * According to the definition given in the article, "A slave state was a U.S. state in which slavery of African Americans was legal", I think it fits. While New Jersey abolished the practice of "new" slavery in 1804, it allowed those owners still holding slaves to keep them. New Jersey's goal was to do away with slavery through attrition. These unfortunates were classified as apprentices for life.  This title may sugar coat the situation for some, but these apprentices were far from freedmen and were still slaves.  These "apprentices were not freed until the 13th Amendment rolled around, which New Jersey didn't ratify until January 23, 1866. Sf46 (talk) 23:37, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for providing what you "think". The bottom line is what actual historians think and write -- you have any actual reliable sources that lump New Jersey in with Alabama et al?  Didn't think so. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 00:58, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Since I guess this is still an issue, see here for an example (the first I could find on Google Books) of a historian labeling NJ as a "free state" even while acknowledging that slavery wasn't completely abolished there until 1866. Wikipedia shouldn't use different terminology without support from reliable sources.Prezbo (talk) 21:15, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

One thing that ought to be changed is the statement "New Jersey became the last original state to embark on the course of gradual emancipation". Should be changed to states in the northeast, or north of the Mason-Dixon line. The current sentence makes the statement come across as that only the states in the north were part of the original states. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ipso44 (talk • contribs) 09:38, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

This article is highly flawed. While New York passed a law in 1799, not 1787, to outlaw slavery. Slavery continued until 1827. This article is highly slanted with a very strong POV. I thought POV's were a no-no. PS, I'm a born and bred NYer and yes my family owned slaves back in the day. I have many Colonials in my line. To dispel the argument I don't have any reliable source to the contrary, I'll give you over to a historian now: "Emancipating New York: The Politics of Slavery and Freedom, 1777-1827", David N. Gellman (2008).173.24.82.245 (talk) 21:50, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Merger Proposal
Propose merging Free state (United States) into Slave state, due to massive 'overlap' (WP:MERGE) between the two articles (including graphics, data tables, and content). Also, the two concepts are only really defined as opposites of each other, which is one of the key examples provided for a good candidate for merge (e.g. flammable vs. non-flammable).

As a historical note, the 'Free state' was actually created as a fork off the 'Slave state' article in 2004 by jangod. I will try to contact this editor for input on the re-merge.

Any thoughts?

--Cheakamus (talk) 20:01, 27 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Agree in principle. However, many articles have separate links for both slave state and free state and it would not really do to link only one of the terms. A work-around would be to ensure that there is are separae sections within a merged article that list the states that were one or the other as the outset of the civil war. --JimWae (talk) 20:08, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
 * To clarify: my point is that even if both terms appear in an article in the same sentence, they ought both be linked, taking the reader to a different place in the proposed merged article. It would not do to have to decide which term to link & which not to. The proposed merged article should be structured to make such linking easy. Otherwise, I would oppose a merge --JimWae (talk) 04:33, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree that both old links should point to the merged article (probably by using a redirect for one of them--I think this is standard practice for a merge). Also agree with listing the states in separate categories. Anyone out there who wants to take this merge on should go for it, as I probably won't get around to it for a while. Cheakamus (talk) 01:09, 9 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with the merger proposal, but it seems like it should be done as part of a major refocus of the article. The emphasis should be on:
 * Clearly explaining that slavery existed primarily under state law rather than federal law.
 * Demonstrating the evolution of the country from a point where most states allowed slavery to the point where it was purely a sectional issue.
 * Explaining the territorial issue as it related to slavery and as it related to states’ rights.
 * Describing the changing federal role -- the North’s resistance to an expansion of this role and the South’s demand for an increased federal role.
 * The amount of detail required for this article should be determined by the extent that the topics are already covered by existing articles such as Slavery in the United States, Origins of the American Civil War. and separate articles covering such things as the Missouri Compromise, Wilmot Proviso, Fugitive Slave Laws, etc. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 12:52, 9 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Seems like a consensus is emerging to merge the articles back together. I don't agree that the improvements that North Shoreman proposes need to happen at the same time as the merger. If anything, it would be better to have the articles merged first, so that such improvements don't need to be repeated.Cheakamus (talk) 04:17, 25 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Done. PL290 (talk) 14:40, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Incomplete Table?
Delaware was a slave state and existed since the beginning so why isn't it in the table of slave states in 1812? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.188.31.229 (talk) 01:50, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

the truth remains a mistery —Preceding unsigned comment added by Emobizatch (talk • contribs) 11:28, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Why is there no mention that by the time the US constitution was ratified 11 of the 13 original colonies had outlawed the practice? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2606:9400:949f:fcc1:ed75:a4b8:2909:7896 (talk) 03:07, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

African-American slaves?
Why is a slave-state only defined by the legality to keep African-American slaves? What about all the thousands of white slaves? 216.185.250.92 (talk) 04:16, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

"Slave and free states" would be a better title
Obviously the article discusses both.Prezbo (talk) 21:09, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

slavery
Il etait transporté par colissimo d'afrique a l'europe — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.128.145.233 (talk) 13:56, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

First "slide" of interactive graphic has an error
It lists Vermont being a free state in 1770, not 1777. The main text of the article is correct. Contributor tom (talk) 21:26, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Animation ends in 1861
The animation ends in 1861. Shouldn't it continue to the end of slavery in the US, in particular showing the creation of West Virginia and its transition to a free state? --69.159.60.150 (talk) 07:15, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Ended vs. Completed
I changed "ended" to "completed" in "Gradual emancipation in New York (starting 1799, completed 1827) and New Jersey (starting 1804, completed by Thirteenth Amendment, 1865." I did so because to say that gradual emancipation ended could be misconstrued to mean that people remained enslaved. But another matter should be clarified. Was anyone in New Jersey still enslaved in 1865 before ratification of the Thirteenth Amendment? I doubt it. I think that we're talking not about gradual emancipation starting and completing, but about the law requiring gradual emancipation starting and completing. Would someone edit this to clarify it?Maurice Magnus (talk) 18:55, 8 June 2022 (UTC)


 * I don't have any problem with "completed" (or "finished"), but there definitely were people still living as slaves in New Jersey in 1865. The 1860 census records 16 people as "slaves for life," but that is a significant underestimate. (The census did not compile any slave schedules for New Jersey, so the 16 are only those who were incorrectly recorded on the general census.) The real number was likely in the low thousands. The 1846 Act to Abolish Slavery only renamed the status of slave to "apprentice for life," with all the same constraints as slavery. See this Melissa F. Weiner paper, for instance. Flaggingwill (talk) 19:19, 8 June 2022 (UTC)


 * OK. Thanks Maurice Magnus (talk) 19:22, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Since this seems to be something of a perennial problem, rather than start a new topic, I'll hitchhike onto this one. I just corrected NY State, changing 1799 to 1827 in the "footnote". I don't know where 1799 came from, though I do know that in 1798 then-Governor John Jay signed a bill to end slavery as of 1827. Some other points:


 * You have to read the "fine print" above the first table in the Slave/Pairs subsection to understand that the years indicate when a state either joined the union or ratified the Constitution.
 * I'm not sure of the significance of the ratification year, when we're looking at the table to determine when slavery ended. In Pennsylvania's case it "officially" ended in 1780, but that's when it was abolished. Slavery actually lasted in PA until the late 1840s.
 * As discussed above, we also know New Jersey started the process in 1804, but didn't complete it until 1865.
 * Massachusetts may be get the gold medal. Abolition was in 1780 and its Supreme Court ended the practice in 1783.
 * I thought Rhode Island, a haven for Quakers, got the prize but it too dragged its feet until the 1840s.

So, given all this and more, what good is the table? None I can see because it's confusing and misleading. As a fan of tables, information at a glance, I'm sure we could come up with a more complete listing with more columns to show how things progressed...and took forever. Maybe the pairs construct shouldn't be addressed by the table (a simple column listing would accomplish that part), whereas a large table might better serve the topic, Slave States and Free States, as well as the curiosity of readers regarding the main issue: when did slavery end? Thanks. Allreet (talk) 23:33, 23 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Forever does not seem quite accurate. And it is still a fundamental difference between states. Gradual abolition generally had several parts, ending the importation of slaves, ending the slave trade, and over-time ending slavery gradually, and in key part ending the slavery of children or as they came of age. Thus, it is a fundamentally different system than obtained in the other states.  Had all  the states below the line adopted such gradual plans, about 1800, American history would be very different. But they did not: below the line, they had in substance perpetual (or "forever") plans. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:59, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Indian Territory
Slavery was practiced in the Indian Territory until the Reconstruction Treaties of 1866 were signed. This map might should be updated to reflect this accurately. 2601:285:580:7C90:C15C:A823:A2FF:2160 (talk) 02:29, 28 April 2023 (UTC)


 * That map is already used in the article (also this article is about U.S. states not territories). Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:18, 28 April 2023 (UTC)


 * The map is indeed used in this article. My concern is that the map should be changed to address that 1866 marked the end of slavery in the Indian Territory, as opposed to the 1862 date currently depicted.
 * And, considering the article addresses the situations of Washington, D.C. and Utah Territory, it would appear that discussion of the Indian Territory would certainly be appropriate in this article. 2601:285:580:7C90:4D56:510D:FE98:6542 (talk) 04:48, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

1619 Reference Removed
I removed the 1619 reference. Slavery already existed in the Colonies well beforehand. Link: [https://www.history.com/news/american-slavery-before-jamestown-1619#:~:text=Prior%20to%201619%2C%20hundreds%20of,the%20systematic%20spread%20of%20colonization. https://www.history.com/news/american-slavery-before-jamestown-1619#:~:text=Prior%20to%201619%2C%20hundreds%20of,the%20systematic%20spread%20of%20colonization.] 50.110.182.106 (talk) 02:34, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Why is the map key covering Utah?
Very weird that the map key covers a large portion of the Western US? Abstractbread (talk) 00:28, 18 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Not sure what map you are referring to but Utah Territory had slavery. Slavery was also legal in New France and New Spain. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:25, 18 April 2024 (UTC)