Talk:Smooth breathing

Proposed move: Spiritus lenis → Smooth breathing
According to Naming conventions (use English). FilipeS (talk) 21:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Glottal stops
I don't understand the statement about glottal stops in connection with smooth breathing. It is not possible to start a vowel (from silence) without first closing the glottis, then opening it on the desired vowel.

Even if Greek sentences were or are spoken with no hiatuses, there is a hiatus between sentences. To break the silence on a vowel, you need either a "rough breathing," which results in a voiceless fricative like our "h"; or a "smooth breathing," accomplished by first closing the glottis, then opening it on the vowel. Perhaps the author prefers not to call it a glottal stop. But since he or she specifically mentions glottal stops, he should clarify that he distinguishes glottal closure from a glottal stop.Smokey1066 (talk) 09:32, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The point Allen makes is that the smooth breathing does not represent a glottal stop. A speaker may choose to insert a glottal stop in some places where there's a smooth breathing, but does not have to. The evidence you give would only work at the beginning of an utterance, not in the middle. In the middle there's no reason to have a glottal stop.
 * The evidence he gives is that elision can happen when a word ending in a vowel comes before a word beginning in a vowel with a smooth breathing on it. Elision of vowels can only happen if two vowels follow each other, because elision is motivated by ease of pronunciation. If the smooth breathing represented a glottal stop, it would be a consonant. Then there'd be a consonant between the two vowels, and elision would not happen. Therefore the smooth breathing is not a consonant. (Other sound changes involving two vowels, like conversion into an improper diphthong, can also occur in Homer in the same situation as elision.)
 * For my part, I'm studying Arabic, which definitely has a glottal stop phoneme (for example, in the word Quran, after the r), so I know what having a glottal stop phoneme looks like. There's none in Ancient Greek. — Eru·tuon 14:07, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

DI‑GAMMA / VAU : Smooth‑breathing & SIGMA / SAN : Rough‑breathing
Hello, from the Ancient‑Greek studies at dis‑tance, that I have per‑formed in Belgium in 2012, the "Smooth‑breathing" and "Rough‑breathing" serves to in‑dicate & marking the ab‑olition of the archaic letter Di‑gamma Ϝ [v] (Smooth) or Sigma/San Σ/Ϻ [ʃ/s] (Rough) in the word, the Ϝ or Σ/Ϻ can be at beginning or middle, it de‑pend of the position of the breathing.

{Di‑gamma Ϝ {also called ϜΑΥ : vau/vaw} is V be‑cause W was Υ/ΟΥ [u/w] from Phoenician 𐤅 [u], Ϝ don't share shape and sound with Υ / 𐤅, after some‑time Υ be‑came later [y] and [i] in Modern‑Greek ; Pamphylian Digamma/Wau/Waw Ͷ is [w], also Ϝ [v] be‑came Latin F [f], V & F are labio‑dental sound and can be con‑fused, when W & F have nothing in com‑mon, so Latin letter F sound [f] come from Ancient‑Greek letter Ϝ sound [v]...}.


 * http://www.webtopos.gr/eng/languages/greek/alphabet/earlyletters.htm (Source as V)
 * http://www.webtopos.gr/eng/languages/greek/alphabet/upsilon.htm (Source as U, W)
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digamma#Pamphylian_digamma

In the French pre‑cise book of Ancient‑Greek "Le Grand Bailly" or "Abrégé Bailly" breathing (spirit in French) are re‑pre‑sented in the words and in the de‑finition, in [RAC : racine/root] Section is ad‑ded the original word with Di‑gamma Ϝ or Sigma/San Σ/Ϻ. In older editions of "Le Grand Bailly" or "Abrégé Bailly", the "Table of roots" (which is no longer pre‑sent in the new editions) speci‑fies the list of roots using Di‑gamma Ϝ [v] & Sigma/San Σ/Ϻ [ʃ/s], yet in Wikipedia English or French, no one mention that the "Smooth breathing" and "Rough breathing" was used for Di‑gamma Ϝ & Sigma/San Σ/Ϻ removing, why ??? They talk only about a‑spired H (no one can make a‑spired H be‑fore a RHO, it's im‑possible), so it's wrong... Also In Wiktionary page for Ancient‑Greek words using breathing, the W/V or S/SH is never mentioned in "Archaic pro‑nunciation", like for ex‑ample :
 * ὙΠΕΡ / HYPER that was originally writed ΣΥΠΕΡ / SHYPER [ʃuper] (Latin : SVPERIOR), or
 * ἙΞ / HEX → ΣΕΞ / SHEX [ʃeks] (Latin : Six) or
 * ἘΞ / EX → ϜΕΞ /  VEX [veks] (Latin : Ex‑) or
 * ἘΡΓΟΝ → ϜΕΡΓΟΝ [verg‧on] (English : Work, Dutch : Werk) or
 * ἩΛΙΟΣ / HELIOS → ΣΗΛΙΟΣ / SHELIOS [ʃɛli‧os] {Attic} (Latin : Sol, Solis, English : Sun) or
 * ἉΛΙΟΣ/ ALIOS → ΣΑΛΙΟΣ / SHALIOS [ʃali‧os] {Dorian} (Latin : Sol, Solis, English : Sun) or
 * ΟἸΝΟΣ → ϜΟΙΝΟΣ [vojn‧os] (Latin : VINVM, English : Wine, French : Vin) or
 * ἈΡΗΣ / ARES → ͶΑΡΗΣ / WARES [warɛs] (God of War, War God, war it‑self personi‑fied) or
 * ῬΕΩ → ΣΡΕΩ [ʃre‧ɔ] (flow) & ῬΕΩ/ἘΡΩ → ϜΡΕΩ/ϜΕΡΩ [vre‧ɔ/ver‧ɔ] (Speak/Verity/Love) or
 * ἈΝΑ → ϜΑΝΑ or ΑϜΝΑ [vana / avna].

{I don't use ac‑cent acute / grave in Ancient‑Greek words be‑cause at that time they didn't ex‑ist, also writing Ancient‑Greek word in minuscule is an error, be‑cause at that epoch only capital script with‑out ac‑cent ex‑isted, minuscule should be used only for Modern‑Greek in your Wiktionary or Wikipedia...}. Gmazdên (talk) 12:09, 28 May 2015 (UTC)