Talk:Somali Sign Language

Somali Sign Language
The Woodford paper The beginning and growth of a new language - Somali Sign Language makes it clear that the Somali Sign Language is a) a new sign language, and is b) distinct from the Kenyan Sign Language. Yes, it was established by an ethnic Somali man who was educated in Wajir (a Somali town) in the Kenyan Sign Language. However, the author asserts that the Somali Sign Language is different from KSL and other sign languages in Africa in that :


 * SSL was started by an actual deaf person:
 * "Here we have the main factor in the rapid development of SSL - a deaf person, himself a sign language user, started the school - a deaf person with the same culture, the same language, as well as skills in reading and writing English. The situation with the development of other African sign languages has been somewhat different. In most countries, the majority of the first schools, and many subsequent schools, for deaf children, were started by hearing people."
 * No, a school is not a language. — kwami (talk)


 * SSL's deaf inventor already had sign language skills, unlike many of his hearing counterparts:
 * "Schools were established by hearing people who did not have any sign language skills and who came from environments that considered sign as disadvantageous to the development of language. This meant that the national sign language was slow to develop and faced many difficulties."
 * No, it says nothing about an "inventor". — kwami (talk)


 * SSL's deaf inventor was himself of a culturally appropriate background. In other words, he was an actual ethnic Somali with a Somali culture, unlike many other of his hearing counterparts who came from backgrounds different from the community they served:
 * "Schools were established by people who had sign language skills, but who used a sign language based on a very different culture. The national sign language developed more rapidly in these countries[...] Somaliland avoided these difficulties because its first school was started by a well-educated deaf man, using a culturally appropriate sign language. When deaf sign language users start a country's education for deaf children a more rapid development of a national sign language is ensured."
 * Ibid. — kwami (talk)


 * SSL is based on the Somali culture and language, not any Kenyan culture or language; it is also tied to a sense of shared nationhood between ethnic Somalis in Somalia proper and environs:
 * "The Somali people live in a far wider area than just Somalia and Somaliland. They also live in parts of Kenya and Ethiopia and share a common faith, Islam, and language, 'af-Somali', which only became a written language in 1973. This sense of Somali nationhood is both a matter of pride and a situation which has affected the growth of Somali Sign Language (SSL)."
 * This last point is also highlighted in The Society book, which equates the Somali Sign Language with the Somali language/Af-Somali itself ("The Somali sign-language, Af-Somali, is taking its rightful place").
 * No, that's not what it says at all. — kwami (talk)

Also, please note that the Woodford paper points out that Somaliland is in northwestern Somalia ("Somalia is situated in the Horn of Africa and Somaliland is a region of North-West Somalia"). That automous region of Somalia should therefore not be included in the states parameter alongside its parent country Somalia and Djibouti. Middayexpress (talk) 14:34, 31 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Your conclusions do not follow from those quotations, and in fact are contradicted by the source. For example, SSL clearly derives from KSL, which you deny.  There's also no reason to think it was "invented".  I've reverted.
 * As for your last point, per NPOV it's not up to us to decide whether Somaliland is an independent country. — kwami (talk) 15:48, 31 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Actually, the Woodford paper in its very title indicates that the Somali Sign Language is a new sign language. It also states that the Somali man who developed SSL (not three people) was himself schooled in the Kenyan Sign Language and that SSL "still shows its KSL roots" when demonstrated. That's speaks to influence, not singularity. Woodford also indicates that SSL is culturally distinct from KSL (see above). This is obvious considering the fact that KSL appears to be based on the Swahili language and culture, not the Somali language and culture. SSL's characteristics include the fact that it is also tied to ethnic Somali nationalism, a fact which you also appear to be challenging (?). Lastly, by citing Somaliland separately from Somalia, you are already insinuating that it is a separate country, when the Woodford paper itself make its clear that it is internationally recognized as a region in Somalia. Borama is also disputed between Somaliland and Awdalland (the actual natives of Borama), which is another reason why we indeed cannot take sides on the issue. Middayexpress (talk) 16:19, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * If you want to respond, the proper way to do that is to either just respond or quote the text you would like to respond to in italics and then respond to that. At any rate, it wasn't even indicated in the text that he invented the script. It's indicated that he developed it, which is precisely what Woodford states. Here is the wikipedia text in full:


 * Development Somali Sign Language was originally developed by a Somali man educated in a Somali deaf school in Wajir, Kenya. In 1997, he used his knowledge of English and Kenyan Sign Language (KSL) to establish the first school for the deaf in the city of Borama, situated in northwestern Somalia. He had originally proposed the idea as far back as 1977. One of the teachers at Borama soon founded a deaf school in Djibouti. With a bit more difficulty, another was established in Hargeisa, the capital of the autonomous Somaliland region in northwestern Somalia. Through the years, the Djibouti school's sign language system has remained the Somali Sign Language. It has, however, followed a different developmental path.


 * "SSL's growth has been both consistent and quick. The first graduating class at the Borama school all passed with high marks. Alongside written Somali and English in Somalia and Somali and French in Djibouti, pupils in all the deaf schools have used SSL, which still shows its KSL influences."


 * "In addition, there are plans to establish a new SSL-based deaf school in the northeastern city of Bosaso, the commercial capital of Somalia's autonomous Puntland region. The Somali National Association for the Deaf (SNAD), Deaf Unity and other leaders in Somalia's deaf community are also working together to build more deaf schools in the country, where the Somali Sign Language is to be taught."


 * "Characteristics Unlike many other new sign language systems, the Somali Sign Language is not based on a foreign culture and language. It is instead centered on the Somali culture and Somali language (Af-Somali). As such, SSL's growth has been affected by a sense of shared nationhood between ethnic Somalis inhabiting both Somalia proper and other areas in or near the Horn of Africa. The Somali Sign language is also different from KSL and most other sign languages on the continent in that it was started by a deaf person, while the majority of the first deaf schools elsewhere were established by hearing people. Additionally, SSL's creator himself already had sign language skills. This is often not the case with other sign languages, whose hearing inventors not seldom lack sign language skills and come from environments where sign communication is regarded as counterproductive to language development. Research has likewise shown that when deaf sign language users establish a country's education programs for deaf children, a national sign language develops more quickly."


 * Please point out which exact sentences above if any that you have issues with and why. Middayexpress (talk) 16:47, 31 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I have explained. For one thing, you are apparently unaware of the difference between language and writing, and think that sign languages are encodings of oral languages.  You appear to have difficulty following the source.  I am reverting unsubstantiated claims that you have made, so it is up to you to justify each claim.  If you do not care to do that, then I will revert everything per BOLD, and leave this as a redirect to KSL, pending consensus on how best to deal with this.
 * Yes, it is a new language. But that has nothing to do with your edits.  — kwami (talk) 06:22, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You say that the source is somehow misrepresented. However, you haven't even bothered to explain how that it is. Frankly, I don't see how you could since they (plural, not singular) are in fact faithfully presented. This is just page blanking, not a justification. I will post the exact material above for administrative review. When it passes (as it surely will), I will re-instate it. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 13:39, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

You are pushing the POV that SSL is an artificial language with no derivation from the languages the inventor knew. That is not supported by our source. — kwami (talk) 14:10, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The most that Woodford says on SSL's relationship with KSL is that a) the Somali man who developed SSL learned KSL at a Somali deaf school in Wajir, and b) SSL has preserved some KSL influences because of this, but is nonetheless a new sign language unto itself ("In Boroma the first leaving class (class 8) all reached a good pass level[...] They do this by using the written forms of both af-Somali and English (in Djibouti-French) supported by sign, which still shows its KSL roots"). The latter point was likewise already made clear in the wikipedia text shown above ("The first graduating class at the Borama school all passed with high marks. Alongside written Somali and English in Somalia and Somali and French in Djibouti, pupils in all the deaf schools have used SSL, which still shows its KSL influences"). Middayexpress (talk) 15:28, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You change the wording to mean the opposite of the ref. It's clear from your other edits that you deny SSL has KSL roots.  The ref contradicts you.  This all seems to be a bunch of OR, wishful thinking, and POV-pushing.  — kwami (talk) 18:36, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but the text above speaks for itself. I shall now do as promised earlier, and seek clarification on matter. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 18:44, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Need some field data
As I read the discussion about Somali Sign Language, and read the Woodford article, it is clear that we need some more data from the field. As we discuss her article, we find ourselves interpreting some passages differently. I am taking steps to find out more. Maybe we can learn more facts about this fascinating situation. Pete unseth (talk) 21:48, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Woodford indeed says a lot more about the Somali Sign Language than what is implied in this stub. Incredibly, the page was for years a redirect to Kenyan Sign Language, where SSL was erroneously described as a "dialect" of KSL as opposed to the new sign language that Woodford clearly describes it as being (in the title no less). In any event, I transcribed below much of what she writes on the language:

"Development Somali Sign Language was originally developed by a Somali man educated in a Somali deaf school in Wajir, Kenya. In 1997, he used his knowledge of English and Kenyan Sign Language (KSL) to establish the first school for the deaf in the city of Borama, situated in northwestern Somalia. He had originally proposed the idea as far back as 1977. One of the teachers at Borama soon founded a deaf school in Djibouti. With a bit more difficulty, another was established in Hargeisa, the capital of the autonomous Somaliland region in northwestern Somalia. Through the years, the Djibouti school's sign language system has remained the Somali Sign Language. It has, however, followed a different developmental path."

"SSL's growth has been both consistent and quick. The first graduating class at the Borama school all passed with high marks. Alongside written Somali and English in Somalia and Somali and French in Djibouti, pupils in all the deaf schools have used SSL, which still shows its KSL influences."

"In addition, there are plans to establish a new SSL-based deaf school in the northeastern city of Bosaso, the commercial capital of Somalia's autonomous Puntland region. The Somali National Association for the Deaf (SNAD), Deaf Unity and other leaders in Somalia's deaf community are also working together to build more deaf schools in the country, where the Somali Sign Language is to be taught."

"Characteristics Unlike many other new sign language systems, the Somali Sign Language is not based on a foreign culture and language. It is instead centered on the Somali culture and Somali language (Af-Somali). As such, SSL's growth has been affected by a sense of shared nationhood between ethnic Somalis inhabiting both Somalia proper and other areas in or near the Horn of Africa. The Somali Sign language is also different from KSL and most other sign languages on the continent in that it was started by a deaf person, while the majority of the first deaf schools elsewhere were established by hearing people. Additionally, SSL's creator himself already had sign language skills. This is often not the case with other sign languages, whose hearing inventors not seldom lack sign language skills and come from environments where sign communication is regarded as counterproductive to language development. Research has likewise shown that when deaf sign language users establish a country's education programs for deaf children, a national sign language develops more quickly."


 * Please point out which if any of the sentences above are problematic, and how to go about fixing that phrase(s) before we add the passages. Middayexpress (talk) 15:16, 10 October 2013 (UTC)


 * We don't just copy papers into WP articles. We instead summarize what they say.  The article already does that adequately, and your desired changes are contradicted by the very passages you just quoted.  — kwami (talk) 17:23, 10 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid that the passage above can't be both a copy and a misrepresentation of what Woodford writes. At any rate, the stub is nowhere near adequate, as Pete also notes above. It's only one small rung above the redirect (!) it previously was. Middayexpress (talk) 17:41, 10 October 2013 (UTC)