Talk:Sophie Hunter

Article issues
"In 2007, she received the Samuel Beckett Award for writing and directing the avant-garde play The Terrific Electric which used moving images, absurd humour and vivid tableaux to evoke the shock and wonder of the dawning electrical era."

This is a very flowery sentence. It reads like something out of a puff piece, not a factual encyclopedia article. It's also factually inaccurate. The award was given to the Boileroom collective as a whole, not to Hunter specifically. -UltimateDream (talk) 01:32, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Fairyspit sock puppets
For the love of God, stop editing Wikipedia. LADY LOTUS • TALK 21:47, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Middle name of Sophie Hunter
Hello there! I just want to ask a favor. You see, the middle name of Sophie Hunter in her page has been removed without explanation even with proper sources. Her full name is SOPHIE IRENE HUNTER and this reflects on her engagement announcement referring to her as S.I. Hunter as seen here.

It is also in the Burke's Peerage, Baronetage & Knightage, 107th edition It's not available online (under subscription).
 * Screen capture here (I have double-checked this in the library (it's a big book), and her middle name is indeed "Irene")

Further proof online:
 * From Find My Past (under subscription)
 * Screen capture here


 * From Genes Reunited (under subscription)
 * Screen capture here

Can you please be so kind to amend her page for her middle name to be included. Burke's book has been used as a reliable reference in Wikipedia regarding peerage, ancestry and those in the aristocracy. Thank you very much! 186.64.185.245 (talk) 05:18, 5 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Fairyspit, you have been told NOT to ask specific editors to do your editing. And you've also been told to not make the same request in multiple locations. If you have a request, take it to the talk page of the article and NOT an editor. LADY LOTUS • TALK 12:10, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

birth date
Is this single link a wp:rs for her birthday? http://www.nytimes.com/movies/person/411191/Sophie-Hunter/biography Govindaharihari (talk) 04:46, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * No, it's from All Movie Guide and that is not considered a RS LADY LOTUS • TALK 13:13, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Per whole name and birthday
I am quite baffled by the debate on the whole name and birth date of the subject. Burke's and Ancestry are reliable sources and are often referenced in other pages. Genes Reunited is actually a registered data controller with the Information Commissioner's Office in accordance with the Data Protection Act 1998 (Registration number is Z6639808), see their site information. That's the closest you can get on the internet to an actual census record of a person. What is a reliable source? People magazine? Entertainment Weekly? The person herself saying on a video camera that she is called this and that and was born this and that? The sources I've cited, which were also pointed out in the talk page prior, are actual databases of information from government registrations, thus the licensing and the subscription charges. It is not a random journalist writing a name and a birthday.Proud Austrian Paulinian (talk) 13:19, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Post a wp:rs Govindaharihari (talk) 13:32, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I just did but you reverted them twice, even after my explanation. Feel free to remove Hello Mag and NYT links but Burke's, Ancestry and Genes Reunited are WP:RS.Proud Austrian Paulinian (talk) 13:38, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * User talk:Proud Austrian Paulinian - Post the links here for investigation - ta - Govindaharihari (talk) 13:45, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Please read sections above as these references were already discussed prior to my edit. As for Genes Reunited license: We are registered as a data controller with the Information Commissioner's Office in accordance with the Data Protection Act 1998 (our registration number is Z6639808). The personal information that we collect about you will always be used lawfully and in accordance with the Data Protection Act 1998. If that is not a proof of reliability, I think Miss Hunter needs to personally send the editors a certified true copy of her birth certificate.Proud Austrian Paulinian (talk) 13:54, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Please add back the Burkes source and her middle name. One source is fine. LADY LOTUS • TALK 14:00, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * What source, post it here and I will look at it - Govindaharihari (talk) 14:02, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

If it's a reliable source, which Burkes is, nobody has to "look" at it. LADY LOTUS • TALK 14:08, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Post it here and we can discuss it - Govindaharihari (talk) 14:12, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * To discuss what? Burke's Peerage is considered reliable. LADY LOTUS • TALK 14:16, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Not for a disputed wp:blp name its not - Govindaharihari (talk) 14:18, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Nobody is disputing the fact that her middle name is Irene. What is disputed is the reliability of the references used. If a reliable source can be used to verify her middle name, then it doesn't have to be "discussed". LADY LOTUS • TALK 14:52, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with that, I hadn't seen the bbc source and won't remove anything clearly reliably sourced, but I am still of the opinion below of Proud Austrian Paulinian that the initial is of no real encyclopedia value to readers. Govindaharihari (talk) 19:31, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

It's still her initial, if it can be sourced reliably then it should be included. As of now, her full middle name cannot be reliably sourced, but BBC does cover that it is Sophie I. Hunter. LADY LOTUS • TALK 19:48, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * With the bbc source I won't remove it Govindaharihari (talk) 20:07, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 February 2015
She's to direct Benjamin Britten pieces in two upcoming festivals. http://www.wwd.com/runway/spring-couture-2015/fashion-scoops/valentino

190.26.68.189 (talk) 02:09, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 February 2015
Unmentioned credit about her work as creative director here: http://www.sourceecreative.com/news-or-feature-story.php?type=sf&ID=62&a=1

81.22.22.136 (talk) 08:07, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Cites for 18 February 2015 edits
The "Samuel Beckett Prize" is correctly the Oxford Samuel Beckett Theatre Trust Award. According to the trust's website, (http://www.osbttrust.com/award.html) the award is intended "to help the development of emerging practitioners" and is awarded to an individual or group so they can devise and produce a play; it is not awarded for an existing production. The award comprises research and development grants, a production grant, a mentor, and in-kind support from the venue. In 2007, the grant was awarded to the Boileroom theatre company. While it's true that Hunter was a member of the company at the time, it is simply incorrect to imply that she was the sole recipient. There is no specific mention of Hunter anywhere on the page for the 2007 winner, only Boileroom. (http://www.osbttrust.com/winner2007.html). With this in mind, I will be editing all mentions of this prize to accurately reflect that it was Hunter's company that won, not Hunter herself. I personally don't think the prize is important enough to warrant multiple mentions on the page, especially as it's framed as if it were some sort of major theatre award, but that's another can of worms.


 * RESTORE PREVIOUS VERSION: No primary sources (official websites, Hunter's Spotlight page) are accepted as reference. Several reliable sources (as I will list below) concretely states she won the award. That's clear and should be the basis of this claim, not some mere piecing together of "evidence" which is conjecture at most.
 * Primary sources are most certainly used as references, I don't know where you got that. Secondary sources are preferred but if it's coming from the Trust's website, then it can be used. <span style="text-shadow:4px 4px 15px #00F,-4px -4px 15px #49F;">LADY LOTUS • <span style="text-shadow:4px 4px 15px #F80,-4px -4px 15px #F08;">TALK 12:50, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment: You are right Lady Lotus, primary sources are acceptable but in this case Hunter is not even mentioned in the website. It justs lists the play The Terrific Electric. It's not sufficient to just connect-the-dots because her play was mentioned. The references listed by the IP below put context into it. This is one of the reasons why secondary references are preferred. This also passes verifiability. This is also in line with neutral point-of-view as sources should be detached to its "makers" like the OBST official website.Save Draft (talk) 00:50, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
 * COMMENT Aside from violation of WP:POV and WP:VER, this is also an original research (WP:ORIGINAL) on the part of Avianax. Avianax's edits do not comply to ALL Core content policies and should clearly be rejected. She did her own "investigation" regarding the Aldenburgh Festival and even traced everything Cumberbatch has said the past year to try to prove the actor's and Hunter's relationship timeline. Clearly, this is not how things work in Wikipedia. Core content policy "No original research" clearly states, that, and I quote: "facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist.This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources." SHOULD NOT be accepted in editing any page. Everything in the page should be stated explicitly in the sources without any biased assumption or editorializing from the user. This is especially important as this is a WP:BLP. 180.191.69.3 (talk) 13:21, 20 February 2015 (UTC)


 * I have added three reliable sources, one stating that Hunter is apart of the Boiler Room, and two that Boiler Room is the one that one the award with Hunter as co-director. You are all right, she did win the award but it was apart of the Boiler Room that she won it, she didn't individually win the award. <span style="text-shadow:4px 4px 15px #00F,-4px -4px 15px #49F;">LADY LOTUS • <span style="text-shadow:4px 4px 15px #F80,-4px -4px 15px #F08;">TALK 13:40, 20 February 2015 (UTC)


 * *The Guardian "She won the Samuel Beckett award for writing and directing her play The Terrific Electric in 2007."
 * *The Telegraph "She also received the 2007 Samuel Beckett award for writing and directing her own play, The Terrific Electric, at the Barbican Centre."
 * *The Independent "Hunter is an actor and director who received the Samuel Beckett Award for writing and directing the avant-garde play The Terrific Electric in 2007." 91.115.129.39 (talk) 08:24, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Shoel Stadlen, the head of communications at Aldeburgh Music, was contacted regarding Hunter's participation in this year's Aldeburgh Festival and he has denied her involvement (https://twitter.com/ShoelStadlen/status/568305659508367360). This inquiry was made several weeks after the article claiming her involvement was published, and is the most recent source to date.
 * RESTORE PREVIOUS VERSION: Wikipedia doesn't accept "statements" from unverified Twitter accounts. Aldenburgh Festival doesn't just happen in the summer. It's a year-long festival. Not being involved, or so says a man on Twitter in the summer line-up doesn't mean non-involvement for the rest of the year.
 * Women's Wear Daily: The British theater director and actress is preparing to direct two pieces written by British composer Benjamin Britten. One will debut at the Happy Days Enniskillen International Beckett Festival, and the other at the Aldeburgh Festival. 91.115.129.39 (talk) 08:24, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I hate to agree with the IP who is most likely Fairyspit, but you can't use unverified twitters as a reference. There is no proof that is it the person it's claiming to be. <span style="text-shadow:4px 4px 15px #00F,-4px -4px 15px #49F;">LADY LOTUS • <span style="text-shadow:4px 4px 15px #F80,-4px -4px 15px #F08;">TALK 12:50, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment: Simple solution is just remove the range of dates. Since Aldeburgh Festival is year-round, just don't specify that the piece she's directing is for the summer season. It's not mentioned in the source anyway. It just says she will be doing these in 2015.Save Draft (talk) 00:50, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

I am also removing the claim that Hunter and Cumberbatch dated for a year prior to their engagement since I can find no credible source that supports this, and because it directly contradicts a December 2013 interview with GQ (http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/entertainment/articles/2013-12/02/benedict-cumberbatch-gq-cover-sherlock/viewall) which implies that Cumberbatch is single and actively looking and a January 2014 interview with USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/tv/2014/01/29/benedict-cumberbatch-talks-sherlock-film-stage-success/4838037/) in which he is stated to be single. Since no official source has spoken about the length of their courtship and unofficial sources cannot make up their mind about the timeline (with most tabloids and experts agreeing that they were only seeing one another for a few months prior to their engagement), I think it's wisest to omit any mention of the length entirely. The paragraph on their relationship reads just fine without it. Avianax (talk) 05:24, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
 * RESTORE PREVIOUS VERSION: Again, mere piecing together of "evidence" and pure conjecture. You yourself said that you couldn't find a reliable source regarding the matter, when "a year of dating" was stated explicitly in the following reliable sources:
 * People: "the pair announced their engagement on Nov. 5 after a year of dating."
 * The Hollywood Reporter: "Cumberbatch and Hunter, 36, had been dating for a year prior to their engagement." 91.115.129.39 (talk) 08:24, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Not having an actual date is fine because otherwise it's just hearsay and I want to say that the majority of the articles saying they dated a year are speculating it. Just having when their engagement was announced is fine. <span style="text-shadow:4px 4px 15px #00F,-4px -4px 15px #49F;">LADY LOTUS • <span style="text-shadow:4px 4px 15px #F80,-4px -4px 15px #F08;">TALK 12:50, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment: I removed some refs speculating the wedding and added sources with confirmation from their publicist.Save Draft (talk) 00:50, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The fact that this little quote of "a year of dating" is being so widely argued on, it will be taken out. The exact date or length of time that they dated isn't necessary. Wikipedia isn't the news or a fan site, it isn't our job to give ever fact about a couples relationship, it is our job to report the verified facts, and their announcements are easily verified. <span style="text-shadow:4px 4px 15px #00F,-4px -4px 15px #49F;">LADY LOTUS • <span style="text-shadow:4px 4px 15px #F80,-4px -4px 15px #F08;">TALK 13:40, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 February 2015
There are clearer and better versions of her primary image over on Wikimedia. The current one is too blurry. It's a waste of appropriately licensed content to use the current version.58.150.247.149 (talk) 12:28, 21 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Fairyspit, stop edit warring with users over at the commons about her image. Enough is enough. <span style="text-shadow:4px 4px 15px #00F,-4px -4px 15px #49F;">LADY LOTUS • <span style="text-shadow:4px 4px 15px #F80,-4px -4px 15px #F08;">TALK 13:54, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
 * What? Who's that? What are you talking about? Anyway, have you seen the current one? Like, I've made a request to change it to a clearer one and look what they've done to the image now! It's too photoshopped! It doesn't even look like a photo anymore. There must be a rule here that too much alteration of an image is unacceptable.14.45.76.193 (talk) 13:58, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh, the lovely Stemoc has fixed it already! Consider this request resolved.121.147.165.146 (talk) 14:09, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with you. Enough is enough. Stop edit warring.

Semi-protected edit request on 25 March 2015

 * Calling the production Lucretia an installation is mislabeling the production because installations are inanimate and Lucretia has movements from performers, so it should be properly called performance art. Installation and performance art are entirely different things.
 * Putting the timestamp "(2011)" after Rape of Lucretia suggests that Rape of Lucretia was done in 2011 when it isn't. It's the performance art Lucretia that was produced in 2011 not the opera which was first performed in 1946.
 * Deletion of Magic Flute as credit when the provided reliable source (Benedict Cumberbatch engaged: who is Sophie Hunter?|url=http://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/celebrity/benedict-cumberbatch-engaged-who-is-sophie-hunter/ar-BBd6MXe) explicitly says that Hunter has directed it. Per core content policy "No original research", an editor can't just remove a credit because she thinks the production didn't happen at all. That counts as vandalism.

41.252.119.59 (talk) 02:00, 25 March 2015 (UTC)


 * That's not my understanding of an installation, nor of the editor who wrote it or the source they cited. If you want this changed you'll need to find more reliable sources than the one used in the article.
 * ✅ I've removed them as they were confusing. Its much clearer in the tables at the bottom of the article.
 * ✅ It wasn't original research and wasn't vandalism. It was a good faith edit because the reference used (not the one you mention) didn't mention the Magic Flute. --  haminoon  ( talk ) 08:54, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The dates have been properly restored to the lead. The context of release/performance dates is pretty essential context for an overview - its one of the 5Ws. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  11:35, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd like to point out that the IP is a sock of Fairyspit. <span style="text-shadow:4px 4px 15px #00F,-4px -4px 15px #49F;">LADY LOTUS • <span style="text-shadow:4px 4px 15px #F80,-4px -4px 15px #F08;">TALK 16:47, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Do you think they could be re-arranged so they are less confusing? Ie shouldn't the year be after Lucretia instead of Rape of Lucretia? --  haminoon  ( talk ) 20:27, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Ah, sorry, I didnt see the issue when the works themselves are old but the production is new and we want to give the date of the new production, not mistakenly imply the date the work was originally created. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  21:56, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I removed the original mentions of Opera For Change's 2011 African tour of The Magic Flute because the source was irrelevant, but I don't think the tour ever came to fruition and here's why. The source currently provided is an article which is itself a bit of a dodgy reference as it is full of inaccuracies and misspellings, including Benedict Cumberbatch's name in the first line. I believe the article used this very Wikipedia page as its source, because it was updated shortly before Hunter rose to notability to include mentions of Opera For Change's African tour and was likely the prime source for journalists at a time when there was precious little else about Hunter online.

The editor who originally added this information to Wikipedia probably got it from an outdated source, like http://www.location1.org/sophie-hunter/ (written in 2010-11), in which she claimed The Magic Flute as a forthcoming project. But in subsequent playbills, like http://www.krannertcenter.com/images/cm/2011511153925496128174106178/69DegreesProgram.pdf (her most recent one; from 2013), the credit has disappeared.

In a comment written by Opera For Change in late 2012 (https://operaforchange.wordpress.com/ ), they state their plan to visit Africa at the end of the year and to produce the tour in 2013-14, but possibly as late as 2014-15. I can find no evidence that the tour ever happened and Opera For Change seems to have shifted their goal to producing a cross-arts festival in Nairobi (http://www.operaforchange.com/#!about/c10fk). You can read more about their pilot project to produce The Magic Flute at http://www.operaforchange.com/#!story/c1t44, in which they write about visiting Africa in 2012-13 where they "gave concerts, master classes, workshops and auditioned singers and artists and came home with a series of local partners".

As Hunter's most recent biography omits any mention of The Magic Flute, it was only ever mentioned as a "forthcoming project" in previous biographies, and it seems very likely that articles mentioning the tour were sourced from erroneous Wikipedia edits, I would suggest it be removed from the article. Avianax (talk) 17:43, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Regarding, "Hunter is a maternal great-granddaughter of World War I politician J. E. B. Seely, 1st Baron Mottistone.[10]” This is not correct. Hunter is a great-great granddaughter of Jack Seely. Eonline actually gets it right: http://m.eonline.com/news/625776/benedict-cumberbatch-is-married-sherlock-star-weds-sophie-hunter-on-valentine-s-da. Furthermore Reference 10 is a People Magazine article full of innacuracies: http://www.people.com/article/sophie-hunter-bio-benedict-cumberbatch-wife....which quotes the following, "Another local said that Sophie's great grandmother, also named Sophie, is the sister of first Lord Mottistone, General Jack Seely, the famous World War I hero and friend of Winston Churchill."  As you can see here this is a fabrication: http://www.thepeerage.com/p4038.htm#i40378.  The 1st Lord Mottistone didn’t have a sister called Sophie. However, he had a daughter called the Hon Irene Florence Seely: http://www.thepeerage.com/p11726.htm#i117251. Irene married Captain Scott and their eldest daughter Jane Emily Scott married General Sir Michael Gow. Jane and Michael’s daughter Anna Katharine Gow married Charles Hunter and is Sophie’s mother. You can trace all this here: http://www.thepeerage.com/p11730.htm#i117295. Furthermore People Magazine says: "Sophie is one of the Nicholsons, which is why they have chosen to have it here," the Morristone local told PEOPLE." "The Nicholson family used to own the manor until they sold it to the National Trust ... It's a beautiful house.” This is not technically correct. Lord Mottistone’s 2nd wife Hon Evelyn Izme Murray was previously married to Captain George Crosfield Norris Nicholson and had a son, Sir John Norris Nicholson, by this marriage. Sir John Nicholson was the 1st Lord Mottistone’s step-son and lived at Mottistone Manor. Therefore Sophie is not one of the Nicholsons (but she is one of the Seely's). You can trace all this here: http://www.thepeerage.com/p11726.htm#i117253

I suggest stating the following with a reference..in order to make its clear to interested readers that People Magazine is incorrect....and that Sophie is a great-great-grandaughter.. as opposed to People Magazine (or leave in the People Magazine reference as well for other information), though several publications seem to have misquoted off of it:

Hunter is a great-great-granddaughter of World War I politician J. E. B. Seely, 1st Baron Mottistone via his daughter the Hon Irene Florence Seely — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wt1010 (talk • contribs) 23:07, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Edit request on 13 June 2015
Can someone add in that she has given birth to a son, as it is already on Cumberbatch's page, and it would be nice to mention here. Here is the source: Thanks! Kevin Rutherford (talk) 18:06, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

INCLUSION OF SON http://celebritybabies.people.com/2015/06/13/benedict-cumberbatch-sophie-hunter-welcome/#more-220520

180.191.150.39 (talk) 00:45, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
 * ✓ done – czar   19:41, 14 June 2015 (UTC)