Talk:Splash cymbal

Photos
This page could use more pictues of accual splash cymbals!

I think a photo of a splash in context with the rest of the kit would be good. With the photo's as they are, it just looks like any other cymbal. The second photo is very poor quality, and as soon as a better one is found, it should be removed. A sound sample would also work well. --Nathan (Talk) 16:34, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Photos done. Sound sample is a good idea. Andrewa (talk) 18:40, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Removed image
I have removed this image, as it didn't seem to be adding much, while it was crowding the page. J Milburn 19:33, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Good call. Hmmm, if we knew more of the history of that cymbal it might be a very interesting primary source! But I see the contributor blanked his user talk page three years ago and hasn't been seen since . I also note that nobody has bothered to move the image to commons. Andrewa (talk) 14:23, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Paper thin
I think the line "would better be described as medium-thin crash cymbals" should be changed to paper thin, seeing as most splashes are paper-thin weight.76.193.189.138 (talk) 00:11, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Disagree that most splashes are paper-thin weight. The term paperthin was AFAIK coined by Paiste to describe their thinnest 602 cymbals; I owned a 12" and a 16" (stolen, or I'd still play them probably). They were really thin, particularly in the bow and rim. Zildjian also made paperthins, similar I believe but I've never played one.


 * Really thin cymbals went out of fashion for a while among the bigger makers owing to the bad name their many failures gave them among rock students, their biggest market. They started reemerging with the Paiste Traditional 9" and 11" splashes (I now own an 11") and are now back in the major catalogues, with warnings about how hard (not) to hit them.


 * I have never seen a really thin splash smaller than the 9" Paiste (one of which I have played) and even it is very rare and for good reason. It's only really capable of p-pppp and the requirements for such a cymbal are minimal; I can't think of any live gig at all where it would not need amplification. I suspect that its main use is for show on big kits used by Paiste endorsees!


 * My 8" Ufip Class splash is thin, but not as thin as my superb Saluda Mist 12" or the 11" Paiste trad, let alone the even thinner 9". Some of the early Bosphorus splashes were medium thin, but they sounded terrible (unlike the superb rides and thin crashes they shipped with); The importer even resorted to putting rivets into the 8" and 6" samples they sent to Australia, and I think they were both eventually sold as scrap metal.


 * My 10" Paiste Alpha splash, for example, has a rim about three times thicker than my 14" Wuhan fast crash. I use the Alpha mainly for teaching (or very occasionally with a home brew sizzler); My personal 10" splash is a superb rotocasted Ufip Natural, and to hear them together is a bit unfair on Paiste considering they were about the same price new (I got a very good deal on the Ufip when the importer went bust)! The Ufip is about half the thickness of the Paiste at the rim, but still thicker than the Wuhan fast crash. Andrewa (talk) 14:26, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Multi crash
Article currently reads The cymbal is also known as a multi-crash cymbal or crescent cymbal. I'm skeptical.

This text may come from http://www.cymbalsdirect.com/v/vspfiles/cymbal-guide/types-of-cymbals.asp and might even be a marginal copyvio, but is it even accurate? Neither the 15" Zildjian Azuka Multi-crash nor the 17" El Sonido Multi-Crash Ride  are splashes, although they are both effects cymbals. Andrewa (talk) 02:37, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

So far as crescent crash goes, Google found me only one significant hit http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=161541143902961&id=152359334791682 and that's for a 16", so again it's a crash, not a splash. I'm going to remove the text!

Most of what is written on drumming in general, and cymbals in particular, is just plain inaccurate. Well-intentioned in most cases, but lots of sales hype in others. Andrewa (talk) 02:46, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Piggybacking and spacing felts
Article formerly read ''When piggybacking cymbals, most drummers choose to put an additional felt between the bells of the two cymbals, to eliminate any reverberation between the cymbals. Not all drummers do this, however, and those piggybacking cymbals are recommended to try out what sounds best for their setup''.

While I realise it's not on to promote the use of felts here, I think we need to gently point out that this technique is common among beginners, most of whom become sadder and wiser when they break their first splash, and rare (I would actually say unknown) among competent drummers.

AFAIK not one cymbal endorsee in the world leaves the felt out. Happy to be proved wrong! If that's the sound they want, they put a little sizzle on each cymbal... if you look carefully at the photo of the Dave Weckl kit in the article, the main ride has two rivets close together near the rim, on the side away from the player.

The combination of an exposed, thinnish cymbal rim, metal-to-metal contact with a heavier lower cymbal giving an unyielding mount, and a beginner wielding the sticks, gives the cymbal little chance of survival. The only saving grace is that it's probably a malleable B8 alloy, which is a lot more resistant than B20 to this form of abuse. (Brass is even better.)

A whole generation of rock drummers were put off splash cymbals by this sort of bad advice. Every drum teacher in the world has had a student say "I bought a splash on the weekend and it split already, they have to give me my money back don't they?" and has sadly asked "How did you mount it?" knowing both that the answer was going to be "Piggybacked on my ride without a spacing felt" and that the music shop would ask exactly the same question.

And sometimes even finding that the music shop had advised mounting it in exactly this way. I've even heard a cymbal company rep suggest it, I hope his boss acted appropriately to the refund claims and doubt it. But at least now they can't blame Wikipedia. End of sermon. Andrewa (talk) 14:07, 21 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Hmmm, or maybe they still can blame Wikipedia. I've left the advantages subsection of the piggybacking section reading in part It is possible to connect the two cymbals tonally by leaving out the spacing felt . This is out of deferrence to the opinion of the former editors of this article, who obviously thought it an acceptable technique (those piggybacking cymbals are recommended to try out what sounds best for their setup, see above).


 * But I'm very tempted to add kids, don't try this at home or even if you're stupid enough to do this, please don't introduce yourself as a drummer at any parties I attend or even if your drum teacher or music shop advises this, start looking for a competent one, now.


 * (Sigh) but a quick Google doesn't support this POV. Can anyone come up with a more acceptable, verifiable, phrasing? Andrewa (talk) 18:58, 22 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I've had a go with but this probably voids any warranty on both cymbals. I think any cymbal rep will back me up on this, despite the horror story above. Andrewa (talk) 19:27, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Gallery
Just a little on the logic of the gallery of four drummers with their kit that ends the lead. Three of the four are already mentioned in the article as playing a significant art in the history and development of splash technique, and Weckl probably should be. In any case, his photo and Portnoy's are needed to put the detailed photos below in to context. Andrewa (talk) 19:20, 22 July 2011 (UTC)


 * On reflection, created a History section and moved the drummers' gallery down to it, uncluttering the page somewhat. Andrewa (talk) 11:34, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Dave Weckl and stacking
A recent edit credits Weckl rather than Mike Portnoy with pioneerng the cymbal stack. But, the photos we have of Weckl don't seem to show any stacked cymbals (there are several piggyback mounts but that's a completely different, and older, technique). Portnoy, on the other hand, is seen with them in one of the photos in the article, and has some Sabian stacking cymbals named after him. Do we have any info on when either of them started using the technique? Andrewa (talk) 00:46, 21 November 2011 (UTC)