Talk:Spotted Elk

Photographs
The portrait shows a man with a crippled left hand, the picture taken at Wounded Knee obviously not. So it seems that this cannot be the same person. Does anyone know more about this? --Meile 17:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Meile, I thought that at first too, but if you look more closely at the portrait you can see that it is just white cloth covering part of his left hand and wrist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.238.222.94 (talk) 00:29, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Number of casualties
This article claims that 290 Lakota tribal members died during the Wounded Knee Massacre, however the wiki page of that event says about 150 Lakota Sioux died: ''In all, 84 men, 44 women, and 18 children reportedly died on the field, while at least seven of Lakota were mortally wounded. There are unsubstantiated claims that these numbers are under reported by almost half.'' If that is true, then the number on this page is rather hypothetical. Zonder 13:35, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Sasquatch?
The article starts with "Big Foot (aka Sasquatch) (Si Tȟaŋka ) (1824? - December 29, 1890), also known as Spotted foot Elk, was the name of a chief of a sub-group of the Lakota Sioux." Sasquatch is the Halkomelem-inspired name for the mythical "bigfoot", I find it unlikely that the Lakota chief was known under that name. Are there any sources for that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.250.96.14 (talk) 23:31, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Never mind, it was obviously added by one of the vandalising morons. Removed it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.250.96.14 (talk) 23:38, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Touch the Clouds
Lone Horn had at least two notable sons: Big Foot and Touch the Clouds. Both where his sons, so that makes them brothers. I included Touch the Clouds in the article therefore. Jouke  Bersma   Contributions  08:14, 27 November 2008 (UTC) Reason he was named BigFoot was he often be known to put his FOOT down in order offer peace, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.174.76.65 (talk) 22:19, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Proposing a move
If people from his tribe prefer the name "Chief Spotted Elk" would anyone mind if I moved the article to that name? -Uyvsdi (talk) 16:58, 21 September 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi
 * I went ahead and moved this article; however, couldn't bring the history along due to the fact that Spotted Elk was a pre-existing redirect. For the history of this article, please check out Big Foot and Talk:Big Foot. Apologies for the inconvenience. -Uyvsdi (talk) 23:40, 24 September 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi
 * I've gone and history-merged the article and talk page. Graham 87 12:09, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Para removal for lack of sourcing
I've removed the following paragraph/section because it was added all in one go with absolutely no sourcing. Perhaps I should have just marked it "citation needed" but there are just too many details for me to just leave it without sources. I also removed a "reference" to a single person, definitely not a WP:RS by Wikipedia standards.

===Controversial photograph=== The photograph attached to this page is a mis-identification of the Miniconjou Chief Spotted Elk. This is actually a photograph of an Oglala Bigfoot who was born in 1832 and who died after Wounded Knee sometime in 1899. There has been a lot of confusion surrounding this photograph but there is scattered documentation concerning this. Recently the Beinecke Library at Yale University released a copy of the original portfolio which includes the above photograph, another profile photo, and two photographs of this man's wife. They are labeled Bigfoot and White Hawk, and this is a portfolio of Oglalas and not Miniconjou. This Bigfoot's name was Ste Si tanka, which translates to lame Si Tanka, indicating there was something wrong with his foot or leg. He might have had a limp. The name that was given to Chief Spotted Elk at Ft. Bennett by the wasicu, was simply Si Tanka (or Bigfoot). The Oglala Bigfoot was married to a woman named White Horse Owner. It isn't clear if White Hawk was another translation error or if she was an earlier wife but He Dog states in an interview that This Ste Si Tanka was the father of Plenty Bear and Six Feathers. Census Documents from 1893-1899 confirm this. Also elsewhere, John Colhoff, interpreter, states that this was the Oglala Bigfoot. For further information contact Calvin Spotted Elk, the great great grandson of Chief Spotted Elk. He has photographs of his grandfather that should replace the one linked here.

Cheers, Pigman ☿/talk 23:41, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Picture in the infobox
The picture of a dead body in the infobox struck me as somewhat disrespectful. Would there be any objections to moving the picture into the section that deals with the massacre? K.e.coffman (talk) 01:54, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Agreed that it is inappropriate for the infobox of a biography. Given that there don't appear to be any useable photographs it's better to leave the image parameter blank. The 1905 portrait by Sharp may be reasonable alternative where there are a lack of photos. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 10:32, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Spotted Elk and Sitting Bull
Can someone please explain to me how Spotted Elk and Sitting Bull are half-brothers? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hagoodman (talk • contribs) 04:54, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Portrait
I restored the portrait. The file description says that it's Spotted Elk. Sharp may have painted it from a photo, etc. Unless there's a reason to believe that the file description is incorrect, I believe that the image should be kept in the infobox.

Here's the link to Smithsonian. Please let me know if there are any concerns. --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:17, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
 * That's fine by me. Photographs may usually be preferential over portraits, but what appears to be an accurate likeness gives the bio a better sense of him as an actual human being (including a cultural context). --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:26, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
 * At the very least, the massacre photo should not be in the infobox as in this version. It's disrespectful and in no way representative of the subject's likeness. An infobox w/o an image is preferable to an atrocity photograph there. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:26, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
 * As a matter of WP:COMMONSENSE, it is not an edifying likeness but a 'trophy' shot inappropriate for a biography infobox. The ultimate rationale is not based on WP:CENSOR. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 19:21, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Iryna, are you agreeing with me then? (I.e. that the massacre photo does not belong in the infobox). Sorry, your last comment is a bit unclear to me. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:32, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
 * My apologies for being unclear, . Yes, I am absolutely in agreement with you. I find the image disrespectful, but merely wished to make it clear that the logic is not simply one of censorship, but of such a photo being of no value for a biography infobox. Even the sources used on Commons comment on the fact that the identity of this poor man as being Spotted Elk was contested due to the condition of the deceased man's body. It's simply inappropriate. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:24, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I had removed the portrait last year because I think it may not be Spotted Elk aka Big Foot. There are two others paintings of Chief Spotted Elk by Henry Joseph Sharp: https://collections.gilcrease.org/object/0137413 and https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/spotted-elk-chief-22216. The first one has this comment: Signed, "J.H.Sharp. 06." in lower right; Inscribed in pencil on dust cover, "Chief Spotted Elk-Sioux 1904-05 A very important man to his tribe- Several diplomatic trips to Washington over complicated affairs- President Grant gave him the medal" on verso; Inscribed in pencil on dust cover, "Sioux - At Pine Ridge, S.D. and other agencies always in trouble with Gov'mt.- Obstreperous.- Army officer, replacing an agent said to me.- If the Lord Jesus Christ came to Pine Ridge Agency, in three weeks they would file charges against him and prove(underlined) it! Only a few malcontents, but they were clever propogandists" on verso. Has anybody some informations about these trips to Washington and that medal to confirm the identity? (Sorry for my english) Florn (talk) 21:24, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I see your point. My main objection was about putting the atrocity photo into the infobox. It's unclear if that was the Chief either. K.e.coffman (talk) 09:04, 14 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Under the circumstances, I think the photo of his(?) body should be removed. Unless the caption reflects that the identity of the the man in the photo is questionable, it probably simply shouldn't be used for this article. Elaborating on the subject of whether it is or isn't raises questions of propaganda and general attitudes to indigenous peoples. In the right context, it probably merits inclusion in another article, but is WP:OFFTOPIC for the bio. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:08, 14 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Hello. The painting shows a different Spotted Elk still alive AFTER Wounded Knee (1890), who is verified as no.17 in this photo of the Sioux Delegation to Washington in 1891 https://www.loc.gov/resource/cph.3g04629/; The painting is by Joseph Sharp (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Henry_Sharp) who arrived from Europe in the 1890s (that's after Wounded Knee), first took an interest in Natives of the Southwest, and then painted Plainstribes members in 1900s, also commissioned by Pres. Roosevelt; it is painting of  live man (the other Spotted Elk), not of a photo. You easily recognize this man in these photos of "the other post-1891-Spotted Elk" at http://www.american-tribes.com/messageboards/dietmar/SpottedElkhuff1.jpg, http://imagecache.allposters.com/images/pic/FIP/NA-00134-C~Spotted-Elk-Sioux-Warrior-Posters.jpg whose facial features are visiby more plump than the fine, sharp face of Minneconjou Chief Spotted Elk, son of the highly respected Lone Horn, and verified member of earlier Sioux delegations to Washington in the 1870s and 1889. There exists a photo of his youth, photos of delegation visits, in the 1870s with his wife White Hawk Woman, and in in the 1880s, entoured by other Chiefs, once incl Lone Horn, later in 1888 next to Spotte Eagle, view https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/77411039/chief-spotted_elk, https://www.ohwy.com/history%20pictures/bigfoot.gif, https://images.findagrave.com/photos/2011/272/77411039_131744531607.jpg https://www.pinterest.de/pin/273664114829777043/ https://images.findagrave.com/photos/2011/272/77411039_131744517808.jpg https://images.findagrave.com/photos/2011/272/77411039_131744531607.jpg - clearly showing the same man at different age, verified by name on original photographs of official delegations. These quality photos of the true Spotted Elk are preferable to a disputable painting (of a different person, attributed to 1905, 15 years after Spotted Elk's death, with a medal that this Chief Spotted Elk is not documented to have received, and is not known to have worn a full headdress; the headdress painting rather being set up for the folkloric painting collection of the early 1900's). In one photo the hand appears crippled bec of a movement of the hand during the long time photo process, or because of a white cloth. These photos are high quality, dignified and representative of his respected status as peacemaker among the tribes. The iconic photo at the massacre is acceptable among the collection, as it marks a pinnacle historic moment, and is iconic symbol of the period, the "end of free Plains Tribes era" that is still commemorated like no other "date" through the annual Wounded Knee commemoration ride, and stands out as single "mark of shame" of the time's genocidal policies, represented today by the unsettled request for turning the (largest batch of) "medals of honor" received by soldiers into "medals of shame". Also, Spotted Elk, is not only part of every top5 list of Chief bios to study, but has a special relevance for those "alive" today and the trauma they suffer from. Spotted Elk is revered and remembered by Natives today no less than Sitting Bull, Red Cloud and Crazy Horse, yet not by not for this presence in wars, but for his peacemaking and the iconic presence of the traumatic ending, more so than Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse, both shot in obscure brawl killing at imprisonment by Indian Police - but in broad daylight shocking the world and a pinnacle in all history books (comparable to My Lai, Vietnam War). In this context, Bigfoot aka Massacre at Wounded Knee are synonym of "the" big "open wound" still today, to be healed by the Native population as well as the "white society" (maybe equal to the change of Columbus Day to Indigenous People Day undertaken by several states and cities in recent years) it deserves to be on this page. Here is a brief statement by his great grandson Calvin Spotted Elk https://about.me/calvinspottedelk I would like to see the pertaining changes made to the photo of the 1875 delegation to Washington,  https://images.findagrave.com/photos250/photos/2011/272/77411039_131744549950.jpg, since it well represents the "great man of peace", or using the high quality photo with his wife White Hawk. Thank you for your commitment to finding the truth. I look forward to your response, so that we can move on and settle the truth about this picture.

Name
Has anyone heard a story about why he was called Uŋpȟáŋ Glešká ( A female spotted elk) rather than Heȟáka Glešká (A male spotted elk)?

If anyone knows a reason it should probably be added to the page.

comment added by Cjp54321 (talk) 05:32, 9 March 2019 (UTC)