Talk:St. Elmo's fire

Discussions
The link to Helena leads to a disambiguation page where no option makes sense in this context. I strongly suspect that this Helena is none other than Helen of Troy who, after all, was supposed to be sister to Castor and Pollux. But I do not know it for sure (I would have fixed it otherwise myself). --eiaccb 10:10, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Are you sure that St Elmo is Erasmus of Formiae and not Pedro González Telmo (or Pedro Telmo), also a patron of mariners?

Corpusants?

 * "References to St. Elmo's Fire, often known as "corposants" or "corpusants" from the Spanish Cuerpos Santos (Holy Bodies), can be found in the works of Julius Caesar, Pliny the Elder, Herman Melville, and Antonio Pigafetta's journal of his voyage with Ferdinand Magellan."

I haven't checked the sources mentioned, but if the term "corpusants" appears in works of Julius Caesar and Pliny the Elder, the claim that the term comes from Spanish is a rather misleading half-truth. There was no such thing as Spanish back then. It doesn't seem impossible to me that the term dates back that early, but the origin would be Latin (corpus sanctus?) rather than Spanish. EldKatt 19:06, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Hi. I wrote the Latin Wikipedia stub on St. Elmo's Fire.  (It's corpus sanctum btw; "corpus" is neuter.)  It seems that there is a confusion in the reading of the sentence you quoted.  There are certainly references to St. Elmo's Fire in Pliny, but not under the name "corpus sanctum" (nor "St. Elmo's fire", of course). He  describes them under the Greek names mentioned in the English article: Helena, and Castor and Pollux.  I'm not sure I remember if I read about it in Caesar.  The Romans don't seem to have had an overarching term for the phenomenon in general&#8212;at least, I wasn't able to find one.   &#8212;Muke Tever 04:40, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

weill, du bescheuert bist
kalte fusion? wieso kann man das das dann 3dimensionlae ausdehnung vs flächenbildung — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4DD4:FA6F:0:8D75:82C:4B9D:7714 (talk) 09:58, 9 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the nice info. Anyhow, upon more careful reading, it's rather obvious that the passage does not at all state that the Latin sources used "corpusants". My comment thus falls flatly to the ground. Still, though, it got me fooled once... EldKatt 21:34, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

St. Elmo's fire in film
The 1970s film Hindenburg portrayed St. Elmo's fire racing around the lounge of that airship as it passed through a cloud, to the dismay of some passengers, who feared explosion. Elmos fires may occure on common household products such as cats,dog,and other household pets.

Where is St. Elmo's fire seen?
My professor once saw it while he was in the cockpit of a FedEx plane. He said it came up from the nose of the plane, over the windshield. It should maybe be added to the list of possible places where it is seen in addition to cattle horns and ship masts. Yoink23 01:01, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

You can search some neat pictures on airliners.net by using the tag "elmo's" One of my favorites is this one http://www.airliners.net/photo/Unknown/Airbus-A340-642/1024173&photo_nr=2&prev_id=1055823&next_id=0858785&size=L which was taken onboard of an Iberia A340. Would be very nice, if someone with more knowledge could provide that picture in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.134.100.194 (talk) 23:03, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

And another remark, I once was able to see St. Elmo's fire (Helena) myself in the cockpit of a Condor A320 while crossing the austrian alps overflying some thunderstorms. It was absolutely impressive as also your hair and nails would lite up in a strange greenish tone! Absolutely great! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.134.100.194 (talk) 23:07, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

St. Elmo's fire was witnessed on one of the B-29 bombers en-route to Nagasaki. It was the atomic bomb mission, but not the plane carrying the bomb. raptor 12:55, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Incorrect quotation method
"Everything was in flames, the sky with lightning, the water with luminous particles (bioluminescence), and even the very masts were pointed with a blue flame."

"Bioluminescence" is not - as it might occur to a common reader - part of the quotation but an addition. What's your opinion: a) Delete it or b) put it into a form with no room for misinterpretation? Walter Schulz (unregistered) 13:07, 19 January 2006 (CET)
 * I put it in square brackets, using the nowiki thingies. There's got to be a more elegant way, but it works. --Allen 02:12, 21 January 2006 (UTC)1281 was the first accourence of such
 * I think that's a good way of doing that. Xhin  Give Back Our Membership!  11:31, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Picture
Any chance the picture could be replaced by a photo?

I agree. Here are some results from Google:

http://inflightphotos.com/st-elmos-fire.html

http://www.jpgloverart.com/Pages/PhenomenPagesFolder/StElmoBlue.html

http://www.jpgloverart.com/Pages/PhenomenPagesFolder/StElmoI.html

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Unknown/Airbus-A340-642/1024173&photo_nr=2&prev_id=1055823&next_id=0858785&size=L —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.134.100.194 (talk) 23:09, 23 March 2008 (UTC)


 * These are not very conclusive pictures. Anyone have better ones? --71.245.164.83 (talk) 02:26, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The german wikipedia page has this picture: http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Elms_Feuer_aus_Cockpit.JPG it is an St. Elmo's fire on a cockpit's front window 192.35.17.25 (talk) 13:05, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The photos look more like momentary static discharges rather than long standing relatively static St Elmos fire. Videos would be clearer. - Rod57 (talk) 22:39, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I concur. That photo from the plane's cockpit gives the wrong impression that the discharge is St Elmo's fire, it is the blue glow in the background. It's similar to cathode glow around an electrode before the discharge (sparks). — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheCampaignForRealPhysics (talk • contribs) 12:09, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Contact
Just to clarify, you can touch St. Elmo's Fire right?--68.88.232.113 01:46, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

"References in Popular Culture"
What a ridiculous, listcrufty, fancrufty section: I removed it. It serves absolutely no purpose unless you are of a very odd trainspotter mentality. Gsd2000 00:40, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, after a short 3 years or so, it's back and quite uninformative. Per WP:HTRIV, I believe it should be seriously trimmed or removed entirely. -Verdatum (talk) 14:39, 16 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I've too the liberty of removing it again, it was a mess.

Eugenespeed (talk) 18:21, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

'Popular Culture' made its way back in without having its own section: Popular novels released even in the last ten years were being listed under "In Literature", without reason or aim except to create yet another fanfare list. References to St. Elmo's fire became as popular as the mystery novel after the 17th century created them and churned them out. No need to begin listing their non-significance here...it is enough to summarize how St. Elmo's Fire made its way into popular awareness/culture.--Simyre (talk) 04:45, 16 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Shakespeare apparently refers to St.Elmo's fire in these lines:


 * CASCA

A common slave--you know him well by sight-- Held up his left hand, which did flame and burn Like twenty torches join'd, and yet his hand, Not sensible of fire, remain'd unscorch'd.

- Julius Caesar, Act I, Scene III -Gopalan evr (talk) 04:09, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

This section has again been infected by fanfare disease. Since it seems likely that removing such entries will just cause new people to add them back, someone should monitor this subject regularly to remove them (or organize and re-write them appropriately). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ggurman (talk • contribs) 21:43, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

I made some organisational changes
And tried to make the first few sentences more readable by those who do not posess a PHD in both Physics and Meteorology. Just a heads up. Xhin  Give Back Our Membership!  11:33, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Suggesting a Partial Re-Write
The entire article is rather poorly written. Here are some of the major things that need addressed:


 * The Observation and Scientific Explanation sections are significantly lacking in both relevant content and notable sources.


 * The Historical Observations and In Fiction sections, apart from having inconsistent section titles, are far too list-like to be called encyclopedic.
 * Split "In Fiction" into two separate sections, "In Literature" and "In Popular Culture". Rewrote the "In Literature" section using progressional argument (ie, re-ordered chronology and introduced discussion of changing views/conventions in literature over time with regard to St. Elmo's fire) to eliminate "list-like" nature of this section.  Also added some lines to Moby Dick to provide more context with regard to omens, and to include the text's exact mention of "St. Elmo's flames".--Simyre 02:50, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Calling the lines from the Rime of the Ancient Mariner a possible reference to St. Elmo's Fire sounds much like speculation without a notable source.
 * The only scholarly reference I could locate regarding the meaning of this section of Coleridge's poem is from an article by John Owen of University of South Carolina:
 * The "Death-Fires", the "Fire-Flags" and the Corposant in "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner". Ower, John. Philological Quarterly, vol. 70 no. 2, p. 199-218.  1991


 * A comment on the article is listed at http://virtual.park.uga.edu/eng3k/spring01/assignments/classbibs.html toward the end of the page (search page for "Ower"). The article discusses the contradictory interpretations that accompany these lines.  I suggest that this supports the argument to strike this mention as 'tangential' to this Wiki article.
 * --Simyre 01:27, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The reference to the comic Tintin in Tibet has no source or evidentiary quotations. Either this reference needs to be removed or expanded to include more relevant information than simply saying a reference to St. Elmo's Fire exists.
 * Now under new section title, "In Popular Culture", to help explain the trivial nature of this listing.--Simyre 02:50, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

So far, I have rewritten the initial definition and included a source for distinguishing Ball Lightning from St. Elmo's Fire because they are separate phenomena. One of the external links (http://www.islandnet.com/~see/weather/elements/stelmo.htm) seems to contain much of the information that this article needs to be improved. I will attempt to incorporate more information from this text as well as improve upon the items listed above.  Rmaus  22:24, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Paracelsus and ancient Greek?
"In ancient Greece, the appearance of a single one was called Helena and two were called Castor and Pollux. Occasionally, it was associated with the Greek element of fire, as well as with one of Paracelsus's elementals, specifically the salamander, or, alternatively, with a similar creature referred to as an acthnici." This makes no sense to me, since the whole chapter seems to be talking about ancient Greece, save for the part about Paracelsus, who lived in the 16th century. Perhaps I just don't understand the reference? 80.221.7.99 (talk) 09:49, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Refs
I'm new here but ref 9 on this page makes no mention of the text referenced. serious credibility problem." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.213.9 (talk) 01:41, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Hindenburg Disaster
In an episode of When Weather Changed History, it attributed the Hindenburg disaster to St. Elmo's fire, because of the electrically charged atmosphere due to the presence of thunderstorms in the area. That, coupled with the Hindenburg releasing its Hydrogen, probably resulted in the explosion. You'll have to watch the episode, 'cause its too hard for me to explain ;). The show is usually on The Weather Channel. --Anonymous07921 (talk) 15:15, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * UK Channel 4 just did "What destroyed the Hindenberg" where they support the St Elmos fire theory. - Rod57 (talk) 22:20, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Rawhide
The TV show "Rawhide" also had an episode where they tried to show it on cattle. Clint Eastwood "Rowdy Gates" mentioned it by, St. Elmos Fire and also as a Fire Fox... 75.248.14.198 (talk) 22:31, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

First hand observation
Removed from the article. Moved here in case it is of interest. 98.85.35.128 (talk) 05:11, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

"I have seen another variation that occurred one night on old wooden fishing boats in Binalbagan, Negros Occidental, Philippines 1981 or 82. The masts glowed green. The humidity was extremely high. The time of night was about 9:30 pitch black. I was not able to go back and see if it occurred again. Other times earlier in evening I never noticed it. Locals never mentioned it in the 4 or 5 times I was there. StitchExperiment626 (talk) 22:10, 15 April 2012 (UTC)"

Ever a ball
Intro says " glowing ball of light" implying it is always ball shaped. But most pictures show 'jets'. Could we change ball to jet ? (or does the source really support ball ?) - Rod57 (talk) 22:24, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

The bush that burns but was not consumed
I watched in person a phenomenon analog to the Bible episode when Moshes watched a bush on fire that wasn't consumed, and attracted by this, when he approached the place, began hearing: 'The Voice of God'. I was invited more than 20 years ago by an school mate to his home in Las Rozas, Madrid, Spain. From a window, the mast of a: 'Radio Nacional de España' broadcasting antenna could be watched. During a summer storm day, in the steel cords that held antenna in place, more often in the intermediate links in the cables, saint Elmo's fire plumes, partly bluish in color, appeared intermittently, specially around the moments when thunders were heard. When the saint Elmo's fires were 'on', it was perfectly audible, from the several tenths of meters between the house and the radio broadcasting antenna, sounds, music and voices that seemed correspond to what the radio station was broadcasting then. Loudspeakers existed using plasma to transform electrical signals into sounds, so the possibility is known. Thanks, + Salut--Caula (talk) 10:38, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

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/* Mark Heald */ An weird admission of personal investment.
" (Added by K.G.H. Nicholes: My father is History Professor Mark M. Heald's son, physicist Mark A. Heald. They did indeed witness the Hindenburg tragedy, but my grandfather had no prior experience of St. Elmo's Fire, and no background to support his identification of what he saw as such. My father has protested people's uncritical passing along of his father's assumption on many occasions.) " I dunno if it invalidates what's before it or not but despite the references, it seems like this section mightn't be relevant. --Strobelit (talk) 11:04, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * A. So I took this text out of the main article because it's ridiculous:

Aircraft examples
While flying over the mountains in Papua Niugini late at night, the pilot called some of us up to the cockpit to see St Elmo's fire glowing around the metal window frames and along the trailing edges of the wings. It strikes me that many pilots must have seen this phenomenon but, surprisingly, there are no examples in this article. I will try to find some to document this common occurrence. Hedley 12:13, 15 February 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hfinger (talk • contribs)

"100 kV/m local field strength?" Clarifications needed
Around a sharp point or even a fairly blunt one, this field strength should occur at the tips of everyday objects and even indoors. Consider a millimeter thick wire 2 meters in length with 100V/m field strength?

So does anyone know if the 100 kV/m field strength requirement is the actual local field strength needed to sustain the discharge or whether that's the field strength estimated to be needed in free air for the field to occur at a sharp point on the end of a wire (at the usual 3 megavolt per meter sort of range).

I know I've seen what looks an awful lot like this around everyday, indoor objects but it's extremely low intensity and might be some kind of optical illusion so if anyone can help clarify the physics that would be very useful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.237.249.230 (talk) 08:32, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Air's dielectric strength is 3 MV/m. 100 kV/m seems small by comparison, but I don't know much more. If this isn't sourced, consider tagging or removing it.--Jasper Deng (talk) 09:35, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Seems in the same ballpark to me, especially when humidity is taken into account. I'd suggest removing the inappropriate tag. As an aside, perfectly sharp tips don't exist. Djp~enwiki (talk) 01:18, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Video examples?
Are there any good, and authentic, video examples of SEF? Searching on YouTube, I found several claimed examples, including some filmed from inside an aircraft cockpit, but they were spark discharges, not SEF as usually described (e.g. in the present article). The inset picture in the article may come from one of these videos, but the ones I have seen did not show any light except when there was a spark discharge. There was one more relevant case, with some young people by a lake filming a glowing discharge of light at their finger tips, but I had some doubts about its authenticity. If I suddenly found my fingertips glowing with electricity I wouldn't stand around laughing and photographing it, I would be afraid of a lightning strike. Also, it might be possible to fake the effect with concealed lights. Not saying it was faked, just that I would want verification. If there are no good natural examples, a laboratory example would help. I am not questioning the existence of the phenomenon, which seems much better attested and understood than, e.g., ball lightning, but if video examples exist it would be useful to have a link.2A00:23C8:7906:1301:391D:EEDE:F25A:EB6 (talk) 21:05, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/st-elmo-s-fire-phenomenon-caught-on-camera-during-flight-over-central-alberta-1.5560040

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