Talk:St. Michael's Choir School

error
"These concerts were originally held at Roy Thomson Hall, but have been held at Massey Hall since the 70s"

I don't know for certain where the concerts were "originally" held but I would suspect it was at Massey Hall. At least that's where we performed when I was a member in the late 60's. Roy Thomson Hall didn't even exist until sometime in the 80's.

Cavan Kelly

[ Roy Thomson Hall was completed in 1982; I sang in these concerts in Massey Hall in 1980+. - Camille Goudeseune. ] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.126.127.244 (talk) 21:08, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Not sure where this original information may have come from, Cavan. Christmas Concerts were originally held at Columbus Hall on Sherbourne Street. The school will celebrate 50 years at Massey Hall in, I believe, 2016 which would mean the boys began performing there in 1966. I'm working on an update for this section that will be more accurate. Thanks for your work on this.Astra Inclinant (talk) 20:40, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Edit
I removed On October, 15 2007 there will be a concert with Barenaked Ladies, Matt Dusk, and others because there was no citation. Also, I removed The Elementary and Junior choirs recently won two 1st place finishes at the Kiwanis Music Festival. because I'm sure there's a history of them winning the Festival, not just recently. Stearnsbrian 05:35, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Possible copyright problem
This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Moonriddengirl (talk) 00:41, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: https://web.archive.org/web/20050209035915/http://www.smcs.on.ca/schoolhistory/SchoolHistory.htm. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:55, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

COI tag
I've removed the COI tag, which is over the top considering User:Smcs.archives has only made one very minor edit, has fully disclosed her conflict of interest and has been given constructive advice at the Teahouse. If they start making major problematic edits then, by all means, replace the tag. They have been advised to make a request for any future edits to the article, here, on the Talk page. Sionk (talk) 19:44, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's fair enough. Obviously, I didn't place the COI tag because of a couple of edits by one person, but because there seemed to be several of them. If one is spurious, I don't think the tag is justified. I'll tag this page instead for the declared COI of /Smcs.archives. By the way, compliments to both and  for all the work they've done here. Unfortunately there are still other problems that need dealing with. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:29, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I have now made a couple of minor edits, including adding source materials and rewording a sentence so that it wasn't in direct conflict with another statement. I'm also about to correct the spelling of a name, if that's okay, but as I prepare to make a broader correction of materials, I will post it here with the request edit tag. Should I post information in paragraphs, or in larger sections? How do I request creation of new sections?Astra Inclinant (talk) 20:35, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
 * My suggestion would be to simply make the edits you think are required and are in accordance with the relevant policies and guidelines you've reviewed. If you are worried that it might be a controversial edit, you could then undo your edit and post a wp:diff to the original edit for consideration. – xeno talk 20:42, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The message at the top of this page is much better. Obviously we want to encourage as many people as possible to be open about their close connections to the subject at hand. Clean-up templates on the main article should be used to deal with very major problems IMO, not instances where the editor is making only small, well-intentioned amendments and being completely open about their actions. Sionk (talk) 21:03, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Neutrality concern

 * The school is part of the Toronto Catholic District School Board, yet students are required to pay additional tuition for the additional musical training the school provides.

Can I please change this to:


 * The school is part of the Toronto Catholic District School Board. Students pay an additional tuition fee which covers the cost of the music programme.

My concern is that the above edit was made by a user who was impersonating the school's principal (barry.white.smcs), and the tone is one of critique rather than information. As this is a larger edit, or at least more significant edit, I would like to have the approval of editors. Astra Inclinant (talk) 21:32, 13 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Seems non-contentious to me, but thanks for raising it here. The addition of the word "yet" seems to be making a sideways comment about the school. I see someone's already actioned the request. Sionk (talk) 21:40, 13 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks User:Theroadislong for carrying out the edit. The suggesting author should be mentioned in the accompanying edit summary, for attribution purposes. – xeno talk 22:00, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks I'll remember that next time. Theroadislong (talk) 22:04, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Unreferenced content removed
Since its founding, the Choir School's aim has been to provide parishes in the Toronto Diocese and beyond with organists, cantors, conductors, and professional vocalists. The school has 3 choirs, the elementary choir (grades 3-4), the junior choir (grades 5-6), and the senior choir (grades 7-12). The elementary choir is conducted by Teri Dunn, the junior choir by Charissa Bagan, and the senior choir by Dr. Jerzy Cichocki. The elementary choir is training as they do not sing masses regularly. The junior choir sings at the 10:00 mass on Sundays. The senior choir is made up of two separate choirs, the Saturday choir and the Sunday choir. The Saturday choir sings at Saturday masses at 5:00PM. The Sunday choir sings at the 12:00 mass on Sunday.

St. Michael's Choir School tours twice a year—a one-week tour in December, and a two to three week concert tour immediately following Easter. Touring commenced in 1971, with the choir performing in England and Italy, and competing in the International Choral Festival in Cork. Since then, the choir has toured across Canada and the continental United States, as well as making concert appearances throughout Western Europe and Trinidad and Tobago.

The Choir School has given Christmas concerts every year since 1937, which are currently held at Massey Hall in downtown Toronto.

The Choir School performed for Pope John Paul II during the 1984 Papal Visit and during World Youth Day 2002, Queen Elizabeth II in October 2003 and former Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chrétien in 2003. The choir also participated in a charity performance at Toronto's Rogers Centre with Jackie Chan, Jennifer Love Hewitt, and Wayne Gretzky in November 2001.

In the spring of 2006, the choir travelled to Philadelphia and Miami where they performed in various concerts.

On October 15, 2007, the Senior and Junior Choir performed at Roy Thompson Hall with many Choir School alumni, including Matt Dusk, Kevin Hearn and The Barenaked Ladies. This event was organised by the SMCS Alumni Association, with proceeds going to the Choir School.

In July 2008, the choirs traveled to the Czech Republic for the International Boys and Men’s Choral Festival in Prague.

The boys went to Ottawa, Montreal and Quebec City in May 2009 to perform concerts named Cantate Domino, in translation, Sing to the Lord. The program featured music written by Gabriel Faure and Felix Mendelssohn.

An April 2010 tour also took place, with the choir touring in London, Canada; Chicago, Cleveland, and Buffalo.

In May 2011, St. Michael's Choir School toured New York, Philadelphia, Princeton, and Washington, and held concerts in Newark, Philadelphia, Bryn Mawr, Princeton, and Crofton. They sang mass at the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington.

I have removed this please only add back if you can supply third party reliable references. Theroadislong (talk) 13:19, 14 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I do agree there was a lot of miscellaneous, unsourced detail. Third party sources are ideal but there's no harm (or prohibition) in citing a small amount to primary sources. As it is a Choir School it seems pertinent to say more than a small paragraph about the choral activities. Hopefully someone will find suitable sources for verification. Sionk (talk) 13:58, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Referenced content removed too
Moonriddengirl decided to remove information cited to secondary news sources, removing the sources  too. This is all going a bit too far in my view (and I'd normally consider myself a 'deletionist'). Sionk (talk) 14:23, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
 * kindly looked at the copyright problems here at my request (thank you, MRG!). I asked her to because (a) she's an expert and (b) she had already removed other copyvio material here in the past. The most serious of the three problems I had found was that at the creation of the article on 10 March 2005; that text began:
 * The School History page of the school website, archived here on 9 February 2005 (i.e., before this article was created), read:
 * That is a blatant copy-paste copyright violation, right down to the curly quotes and the two hyphens instead of an em-dash. I hope you will agree that it needed to be removed. Of course there's no objection to someone rewriting the content and restoring the references that had later been added to it, as long as it is strictly in their own words. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 16:05, 14 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Most of it I've absolutely no problem with, it's largely trivia copied from the college website. However, the founding date was clearly verified in one of the news sources, so it is just pedantic to remove that key fact from the school's history (and the source too, which someone has evidently spent time locating and adding as an inline citation). At the very least MRG could have copied the sources to the Talk page. Anyway, I've said enough. There are many more far worse articles about schools and universities that need more urgent attention. Sionk (talk) 16:59, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Request to add information
These seem reasonable and uncontroversial. Please go ahead and make the changes. Wilipino (talk) 11:02, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Choral and academic programmes

St. Michael’s Choir School administers a full academic programme, including a French immersion programme, as well as the music programme, with all students being enrolled in both. In addition to the classroom requirements, students study choral music, piano and theory, with the option of studying second instruments. St. Michael’s Choir school regularly scores high in the Fraser Institute report for both elementary and secondary schools.In 2011-2012, the secondary programme was given a score of 8.7 out of 10, and ranked 16th out of 725 high schools rated by the institute. The elementary programme rated 9.7 out of 10 and was ranked 25th out of 2714 schools.

The choral music programme includes daily choral instruction as well as weekly Mass duties at St. Michael’s Cathedral. There are four choirs at the school: Elementary (Grades 3-4), Junior, (Grades 5-6), Senior (Grades 7-12) and Tenor Bass (Grades 7-12, changed voices). Each choir has Mass duties, but the Elementary Choir, as a training choir, sings only a handful of Masses every year. All choirs participate in the three major annual concerts, but only the Junior, Senior and Tenor Bass choirs tour with the school.

Due to the choral requirement at St. Michael’s Choir School, admission is by audition only. All students must also meet the standard requirements for enrollment with the Toronto Catholic District School Board. The Choir School supports a varied sports programme in addition to academics and music. In 2012, their senior volleyball team placed first in the Toronto District Catholic Athletic Association tournament and won a bronze medal at the Ontario Federation of Schools Athletic Associations.

Astra Inclinant (talk) 20:59, 21 January 2014 (UTC)


 * See comments following request for provisional approval. – S. Rich (talk) 07:01, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Alternative citation and text to the lines Sionk had concerns about:

There are four choirs at the school: Elementary (Grades 3-4), Junior, (Grades 5-6), Senior (Grades 7-12) and Tenor Bass .Astra Inclinant (talk) 17:24, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Additional information for history section

(After first line)

It was founded to provide sacred music to St. Michael's Cathedral, but did not originally have a full academic programme. . Monsignor Ronan was a graduate of the Pontifical Institute of Sacred Music and was a prolific composer, though much of his work remains unpublished. Ronan remained principal of the school until his death in 1962.

St. Michael’s Choir School has held an annual Christmas concert since 1939. From 1939-1964, Christmas concerts were held at Toronto’s Columbus Hall and in December 1964 the venue changed to Massey Hall, where it has been held ever since. In 2013, CBC listed the Choir School’s Christmas concert as one of Toronto’s top 13 classical Christmas events of 2013. The choirs have also performed at Roy Thomson Hall as well as various venues around the city, both on their own and with other musical groups, including the Victoria Scholars and the Toronto Symphony Orchestra. St. Michael’s Choir School tours frequently within Canada and abroad having recently performed in Nova Scotia, Quebec, the Czech Republic and the United States. In April 2013, St. Michael's Choir School went on a 12 day tour to {Florence and Rome in Italy. The school performed 'Jubilate Deo', a song composed by the school's founder, John Edward Ronan, at the papal audience on April 10, for Pope Francis.

Notable Choir School instructors have included composer and piano virtuoso John Arpin, who taught piano from 1956-57, and Canadian Opera Company tenor John Arab, who taught vocal from 1954 until his death in 2000.

A documentary film about the school and its tour of Italy was made in 2013 by Salt + Light Television.

Addition to Info Box

Director: Stephen Handrigan.

Artistic Director: Dr. Jerzy Cichocki

Additions to Alumni List

Michael Burgess - actor and singer

Jim Codrington - actor and singer

Stewart Goodyear - recording artist

Peter Togni - composer

Michael Ontkean - actor, Twin Peaks

Astra Inclinant (talk) 18:47, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Astra Inclinant (talk) 16:43, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

I shall put the article on my watchlist and see how well you implement. Sorry to see that the request languished for for so long. – S. Rich (talk) 07:01, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Here are my provisional approval comments:
 * 1) Citations go after punctuation marks, and usually at end of supported sentence.
 * 2) Omit honorific ("Dr.") in the infobox for Cichocki.
 * 3) No redlinked names in the Alumni list (WP:WTAF) even with references (I've changed this to list of notable persons); include John Arpin at the head of the list with a 1 sentence description to avoid WP:UNDUE mention of him. Also, tenor Arab is not notable, so please omit mention of him in the list
 * 4) Each of the articles for the notable alums should have their attendance at St. M in their articles.
 * 5) IMDb is not an acceptable reference, especially when used in connection to a living person.
 * 6) Don't wikilink common geographic names like Rome, see WP:OVERLINK.
 * 7) Use spaced "en dashes" ["  – "] instead of spaced hyphens [" - "] as the separators MOS:DASH

S. Rich Thanks for your comments. I have worked to implement them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Astra Inclinant (talk • contribs) 13:26, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Request to remove tag
This article now has 23 references over 903 words, or about 1 citation to every 3.5 lines. Can we now remove the verification tag? It seems like it's pretty well verified. If there are sections that require additional citations, I would appreciate some guidance on what they are so that I can make the corrections that are necessary. Astra Inclinant (talk) 14:59, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Removed tag. Thanks for your efforts! --Neil N  talk to me 15:31, 20 August 2014 (UTC)


 * @NeilN thanks for checking. The last line that needs a citation is, I think, cited in an article that is behind a paywall. Would it be better to remove this line? I'm not sure it really adds anything to the factual makeup of the final section.Astra Inclinant (talk) 15:36, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Cites behind a paywall are perfectly acceptable but I have no objection to removing the line. --Neil N  talk to me 16:00, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

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