Talk:State funeral

Wikipedia is not a newspaper. The Reagan text should be streamlined to discuss state funerals in the U.S. in general. It should not be a narrative of current events because this is an encyclopedia. Specific relevant text belongs at Ronald Reagan. --Jiang 11:55, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Text at http://199.231.147.241/general/index.html is public domain. --Jiang 11:59, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Current Events Disrupt Article
I agree, the repeated mentions of facts from Ronald Reagan's Presidency distrupt the flow of a discussion about US Presidential funeral practices. These points rightly belong in the Ronald_Reagan article. I'm willing to streamline them if needed, although I'd prefer the author to do so as I'm not an authority on this particular subject.
 * Neither was the author - have your way with it --JimWae 22:16, 2005 Apr 2 (UTC)

Casket/Coffin
Changed "casket" to "coffin", since casket is a euphemism. 156.34.52.212 15:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Open/Closed Casket
HAs any U.S. President ever laid in state with an open casket? That should be in this article, i.e. whether or not it has ever happened and to whom. -Husnock 6 Feb 05


 * Answering your question, no -- User:SNIyer12 20 May 2005

UK Tradition
If the sailors-pulling-the-coffin tradition dates to Victoria's funeral, and is the only dinstinctive feature of a state funeral, how can those who died prior to Victoria (Nelson, Wellington, Gladstone) have had a state funeral?


 * At that time, there may not have been a distinction between a royal ceremonial funeral and a state funeral. --Ibagli 21:28, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

Why these countries (including Nazi Germany)?????
This article seems fairly biased. Many countries have state funerals (inluding e.g. Belgium, and the former Soviet Union). However only 3 current nations, UK, US and Canada are mentioned and one religious group Roman Catholic Church). Most surprisingly however is the mention without any kind of context of Nazi-German state funerals, why is this special enough to include. I would suggest a fairly thorough overhaul of this article. Arnoutf 19:08, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Speculation, opinions, and overemphasis on terrorism and 9/11
Keeping in mind that this is an article about State funerals above all else, I have removed speculation and opinions about what the events of 9/11 may or may not have caused and what terrorists may or may not be targetting. A suggestion to SNIyer12: Contributing quotes from government officials and cited sources are a much better idea than using highly POV phrases like "these all sent two dreadful messages: state funerals are events of historic nature and terrorists want to disrupt it." This is not the only article I've seen you add such opinion and speculation to. --Ds13 19:43, 17 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Ds13, you have to know that the events of September 11, 2001 destroyed any notion that safety can be taken for granted. Terrorists wanting to disrupt state funerals IS a fact. Events of historic nature ARE attractive targets of terrorists in the post-9/11 world. -- SNIyer12 00:52, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * 1. You're proving my point. A "notion that safety can be taken for granted" is exactly that: an opinion or belief that safety can be taken for granted.  Notions are not universal, they are not neutral, and since Wikipedia holds a neutral point of view as absolute and non-negotiable, any presentation of an opinion needs to be neutralized.  If the majority of Americans or the American administration believe what you're saying about safety, then it can be presented as such &mdash; as a majority belief and cited as such.  But that notion still does not become fact and still can't be presented as anything but a popular opinion.  Obviously, contributing relevant opinions of official figures as verifiable quotes is fine.  But you've also been delivering popular notions as asserted facts, and that's not encyclopedic.
 * 2. You claim to know what terrorist "want to disrupt", so citing a verifiable source with specific terrorist desires shouldn't be difficult. I'm not saying I disagree with you &mdash; please don't misinterpret this criticism &mdash; I'm just saying that phrases such as "dreadful messages" and uncited claims about what a particular group wants to do are not encyclopedic. --Ds13 04:40, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Appeal to prevent an edit war
Three times in three days, I have removed the claim (or its equivalent) by SNIyer12 that (U.S.) "state funerals are events that are terrorist targets". Lacking cited evidence that terrorists have attacked or planned to attack a U.S. state funeral, I have repeatedly replaced this claim with the wording "state funerals may be terrorist targets". I believe this is reasonable, since to assert that "state funerals are events that are terrorist targets" assumes knowledge that has not been shared, despite multiple requests for it.

SNIyer12 claims that John Ashcroft "also warned that there were therats of a terrorist attack" but this warning has not been cited. SNIyer12, we can put this issue to rest if you will share your knowledge of Ashcroft's warning or the specifics of a terrorist threat to a U.S. state funeral. --Ds13 23:56, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Ashcroft warned that terrorists were going to plan an attack. Just two weeks before Reagan died, he warned that terrorists were planning to do so. Officials at the Justice Department and DHS had received the evidence. The funeral was happening during a season of events that were of political symbolism. He also talked about this during the Senate hearing before the funeral. -- SNIyer12 01:17, 20 February 2006 (UTC)


 * SNIyer12, thanks for the response. You raise two pieces of potential evidence...
 * 1. Ashcroft's warning: This doesn't seem to support your claim since it was two weeks before Reagan's death, so it had nothing to do with a state funeral.  I'm not disputing that terrorists target the U.S. &mdash; I'm asking for evidence that they target state funerals.
 * 2. JD or DHS documents: This sounds promising. A link to these documents in the article would be great, if it substantiates the claim that a U.S. state funeral (a specific one or in general) was a target.  --Ds13 02:12, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Canadian situation
Just a few questions re: the section on Canada. The article presently states that state funerals are only available for PMs and GGs. However, I was under the impression that the PM could declare a state funeral for any eminent Canadian (as I believe Martin did in the case of war hero "Smokey" Smith).

It also states equivocally that PM's lie in state in the Hall of honour, and GG's in the Senate Chamber. I seem to recall from when Hnatyshyn died that his casket was in the Senate Chamber not because of protocol, but at his request because his father served as a Senator. I do not recall what occurred when Sauve died, so i have no reference point.

On a related point, when Stanley Knowles passed away, his bodied lay in state in the foyer of the House of Commons. While I don't believe he was accorded a full state funeral, it certainly lends credence to the idea that things such as where the casket rests are not as etched in stone as this article suggests.

I wanted to clear these issues up before I started editing willy-nilly.


 * The procedure is this: When prime ministers lie in state, they lie in the Hall of Honour, when governor generals, in the Senate Chamber. -- SNIyer12, 22:01, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Lord Palmerston's funeral
I have added Lord Palmerston's name to the list of non-royals who have had a state funeral.


 * "He [Palmerston] had asked to be buried in Romsey Abbey, but the Cabinet insisted that he be given a state funeral in Westminster Abbey, and Lady Palmerston agreed, on the understanding that when she died she could be buried with him. The state funeral took place on Friday, 27 October."--Jasper Ridley, Lord Palmerston (Panther, 1972), p. 782.--Johnbull 22:24, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

However, there was no vote in Parliament for Lord Palmerston. Parliament was already prorogued at the time of his death and remained so until after the funeral. There was a subsequent vote of money for a statue.(80.3.76.147 (talk) 07:28, 10 April 2013 (UTC))

John Paul II
"in the case of Pope John Paul II the camerlengo called "Carolus""

Latin vocative ending = -e so should this not be "Carole" (viz. "Et tu Brute?" from Brut-us)

Vote in parliament
'The real distinction between a state funeral and a ceremonial funeral is that a state funeral requires a motion or vote in Parliament.'

Is there any source whatsoever for that? As far as I know a state funeral is given by command of the monarch, not by Parliament. -- Ibagli ( Talk ) 03:25, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

What about republics?

Funeral arrangements
Does anybody have a link to perhaps a PDF version of the mentioned 138-page planning document for state funerals, or is this secure information?


 * It would also be good to have a citation for the requirement that Presidents make funeral plans immediately upon election. Baylaurel (talk) 03:42, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Reorganization of article
It is impossible to list and detail every country and former country in the world on this page. The article should start out with some general aspects of state funerals and link to individual pages on state funerals eg State funerals in the United States for each country.--Jiang 01:18, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed -- SNIyer12, 15:02, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Soviet state Funerals
Were the legs of Brezhnev, Andropov & Chereneko amputated around the knees? I've found their lower bodies seemed strangley short within their open caskets. GoodDay (talk) 21:03, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I suspect that's an optical illusion caused by the long cut of soviet suit jackets. RomanSpa (talk) 02:53, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Huge section for "State funeral for King Taufa'ahau Tupou IV"
I feel that the section "State funeral for King Taufa'ahau Tupou IV" is overly large and descriptive for such a specific event, I think it should be trimmed down or moved to a page specifically for this event. any objections/comments? FRA (talk) 17:18, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Authorized by the legislature
"The real distinction between a state funeral and a ceremonial funeral is that a state funeral requires a motion or vote in Parliament.

and

However, state funerals may also be granted and accorded to other individuals who make significant contributions to the nation by a resolution of the United States Congress. "

So the Congress and the UK Parliament are only in session for about half of the year. What happens when some celeb who deserves a state funeral dies some time during the rest of the year ? Do they postpone the funeral indefinitely until the legislature reconvenes to authorise it ?Eregli bob (talk) 11:25, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, speaking from the U.S. perspective.... I can certainly say for a fact that non-political people who are given American state funerals beyond being a sitting or former president, the decision to give them one is decided months and even years in advance since these funerals have to be planned out to the max. For example, it was decided to give Douglas MacArthur a state funeral long before he finally died in 1965. Another example would be George Dewey. State funerals are so rare in America unlike in Britain. They are not given or performed a lot. And even though U.S. presidents are automatically entitled to a state funeral, the majority of them have opted for a private service instead. Like the British monarch, a U.S. president has to file documents with the Military District of Washington about future plans for funeral arrangements. Before the Reagan state funeral in 2004, the last one was held way back in 1973 for Lyndon Johnson. Basically how it goes in the U.S., if you are not a sitting or former president and/or a five-star general in the military, then your chances of getting a state funeral are next to nothing.--Yoganate79 (talk) 05:54, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well that's as may be, but is there always months and months of foreknowledge of a former President's death ?Eregli bob (talk) 08:55, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

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Suggested split July 2020
A good portion of this article simply lists people who has received a state funeral, and for some countries that's the only information given. I'd say we lift all them out of this into a separate list article - still sorted by country of course - and let this one be simply about the concept by county. Gaioa (T C L) 12:50, 1 July 2020 (UTC) Seems like a good idea — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.179.8.66 (talk) 11:30, 5 October 2020 (UTC) I agree, although it may shorten this article by quite a bit... Ths17sbu21 (talk) 18:26, 8 November 2020 (UTC)


 * The suggested title is "List of people buried with state funerals". We need to be careful about this, as burial is only one of the ways in which a dead body may be disposed of – cremation is the main other one, but there are others.  I can't see that state funerals would be restricted worldwide to burials, or that we should have a separate article for each method of disposal. — Smjg (talk) 18:51, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Perhaps simply "list of state funerals"? The suggestion is a better alternative to bogging down this article. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 22:48, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I would support "List of state funerals" along with "List of state funerals in X" for the nations with long lists (or "State funerals in X" where there is information) - I think that if there is going to be a location-based split as proposed, the main article should not be divided by location and instead be an overview of what state funerals are and a global historical overview (popularity/significance of state funerals). If possible. Kingsif (talk) 10:05, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree with this as well. We could name it "List of people that has recieved a state funeral" instead of calling it "list of state funerals" Dulcetia (talk) 11:11, 20 September 2022 (UTC)


 * I also agree. Joesom333 (talk) 14:55, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I have performed the split: List of people who have received a state funeral. Veverve (talk) 07:58, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Israel and Palestine
Since there is no "Middle East" section, and a lack of precedence for Europe or Asia with nearby nations, does anyone have a suggestion where to include Israel and Palestine? There is some information that could be included in prose, like the protocol for state funerals in Israel is called "Havazelet", and several notable figures - we even have an article for the state funeral of Ariel Sharon. Kingsif (talk) 15:40, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Turkey
Is thereany turkey's state funeral? 2A02:E0:867C:AB00:2079:67CF:D859:D6CB (talk) 16:11, 14 November 2022 (UTC)