Talk:Steamboats of the Arrow Lakes

CPR subsidiaries?

 * Columbia Transportation Company and Columbia and Kootenay Steam Navigation Company - I suspect these are the CPR subsidiaries I was discussing on the talkpage for Columbia River Steamboats. I linked them here rather than cluttering the table with redlinks (as I do elsewhere cf. List of ghost towns in British Columbia) until there are at least stubs about them.  Earlier on, before the railway Gustavus Blin-Wright operated on the Arrow Lakes, I think, but I don't know the operating company or vessel; if you haven't wiki-met User:CindyBo yet she's done a lot of research in that area and esp. pioneered the Upper Fraser and Skeena steamboat articles, among many others including the Blin Wright bio (and cool stuff like Cataline/Jean Caux).Skookum1 (talk) 05:05, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I haven't really fully worked up this page, to be honest it's just half done at best. Some of these companies started out independently and then were absorbed by CPR, seems reasonable to classify them as subsidiaries, basically I don't know the details.  The main book on this is Turner, Robert D., Sternwheelers and Steam Tugs, which in turn relied a lot on Downs, Paddlewheels of the Frontier. Mtsmallwood (talk) 06:14, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

maps and sundry
The routes/schedules from Marcus and Northport I just added are the kind of thing I meant re Talk:Columbia River and related discussions about the role of the Columbia in BC, and also of tying that part of BC to adjoining US territories/states; it's the underlying theme of most Kootenay history until well into the 20th Century, and not in a small way because of the steamboats, in addition to the railways which filled in other links. Speaking of which did a railway ever get biult from Beaton/Galena Bay et al. via Trout Lake City and Lardeau to Kootenay Lake, or was that just a speculation; List of ports of call on the Arrow Lakes could be entertaining to build, lots of vanished nice-places like Ainsworth and Downie Creek (usually called Downie by my time, I think), but the easiest solution would be map showing coloured lines for different service eras/periods, i.e. the Big Bend, the Nelson rush, then the railway survey and construction parties/services, then during the Slocan Rush and since; Volvsek's article comments taht service ran into another 100 years from 1866, and indeed in a way there's still power-vessel traffic on the lakes, isn't there? Even N-S I think, and not just timber barges/booms. I guess a map that would show the Northport/Marcus US termini as well as the Big Bend would also have Kootenay Lake; but maybe in not enough detail for a map of that lake's steamer ports.....nor big enough to show the Slocan service. Anyway I'll see if I can find a map, unless karl or someone might have something suitable in the way of a plain graphic; I have a tendency to favour colour topographic terrain images like that on Bendor Range or Clear Range or the NASA/JPL maps like on Monashee Mountains. If you like the one used on Monashee Mountains it certainly has the scope to serve as the Big Bend Gold Rush map, maybe this Arrow Lakes one; I'll have another look at the source image, maybe it's croppable. One last thing - it strikes me that the Arrow Lakes service, as also I believe on the run via the Creston Valley to Nelson and - ?? - up the Pend Oreille - that these Arrow Lakes steamboats are also necessarily in Category:History of Washington or Category:Steamboats of Washington or whatever; in Kootenay Lake's case the service was from Idaho, right? Anyway I realize taht's not standard categorization, but definitely the Marcus and Northport articles and such should contain these details, or interconnect here......this, again, is what I meant about the hsitory of the Columbia Basin being intertwined; Americans may not be aware of it, but it's their history/activity that's been an integral part of events/businesses/daily realities/connections to the outside world for the Kootenays; it may only be 15% of the basin, but if you're in that area the US-side or the basin is more important, even now, than Vancouver or Calgary, in daily life (even before broaedcasting adn teh automobile, which are the two main forms of exchange in teh area today ;-) advertising+cars=border shopping malls ;-) ...).Skookum1 (talk) 04:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * this sounds very good, I haven't had time to come back to this article and give it the attention it deserves.Mtsmallwood (talk) 18:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Steamboats of the Upper Columbia River?
There were, weren't there? I mean, from the Goldstream River up through Mica Creek, not sure if it's just gold rush era or later on also. Weren't there some in teh Columbia Valley area? Maybe a better title would be Steamboats of the Big Bend and Columbia Valley? The Steamboats of the Columbia River article has "upper" as meaning somewhere down by/above Celilo Falls, but "upper" clearly would include not just the Marcus-La Porte and Northport-Farwell runs involving the Arrow Lakes, but also above the Dalles des Morts. Also waht about the Pend Oreille River/Clark Fork services; are they in the Columbia River steamboats article or do they need their own; Pend Oreille River services would seem to have naturally connected to the Arrow Lakes, no? Skookum1 (talk) 15:37, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Above Revelstoke I think there may have been one or two, I would start with Downs and see what he says on this.Mtsmallwood (talk) 18:46, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, the Forty-Nine certainly went above Revelstoke, I think there were others on the Big Bend run, but it will take some looking I guess; I'm meaning above that. If only one or two they still need mention somewhere; but as what, I'm not sure; I'm reasonably certain that Mica Creek was a "port of call"....hard to believe that they served Golden, as I remember the raging current around there, though that may have been the time of year; but what about the Columbia Valley.  Anyway, the "route" section needs adjustment so as to mention the Marcus-LaPorte/Dalles des Morts run; and as alluded to above weren't there service routes that came to the Arrow Lakes/Upper Columbia originating on the Pend Oreille?  I stubbed up Forty-Nine (steamboat) that way as I didn't know whether it was a sternwheeler or sidewheeler or what; didn't get to the Kootenai (sternwheeler) yet...but did add/adjust both on List of ships in British Columbia.Skookum1 (talk) 21:08, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm thinking about working up something on the Forty-Nine, but tying it in with an article on Leonard White. I've done one on the Colonel Wright another Leonard White exploratory boat, the Forty-Nine would be a good cross border tie-in.Mtsmallwood (talk) 21:35, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Suggested Improvements
I made a new navbox for this steamboat route. I replaced the existing BC steamboats and Columbia river navboxes with this one, as the links to these other navboxes are in the new one. There are too many external links on this page and not enough text. I will try to complete the text when I can, and cut down on the xlinks. Also, I would like to make the steamboat table collapsible, but I don't know how to format this.Mtsmallwood (talk) 13:58, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know how to make the show/hide switch either, have a look at Subdivisions of British Columbia and have a look at the tabledcode; each section of that one is switchable. You missed the Alpha btw, and the redlink I'd set up elsewhere for the Columbia is Columbia (sternwheeler) because it's described that way on Volovsek's Trails in Time; is "steam tug" more accurate?  "Arrow Lakes" in its tag seems overdone as it also ran on the Columbia - like all of these, I guess...but the title for template/article would be too long if "Arrow Lakes and upper Columbia River" and even "upper" there isn't right, either from the Oregon perspective (where "upper" ends at the Okanogan confluence, or the Canadian one (where the upper Columbia is the Golden-Columbia Valley area....you do know that the BC Archives photos, once stripped of that gaudy frame they come with, are all possible to switch to full-displayed images, right?  Haven't looked to see where all the external links are from, but just a consideration to gussy this up a bit...I think Kmusser was going to make me/us up a map of Marcus/Northport up to Revelstoke/Dalles des Morts, the same range of map will probably also enable Kootenai River-Kootenay Lake for mapping purposes.  All the little ports/localities on the Arrow Lakes and the lower-BC Columbia (Robson to the border) will one day have articles/map(s) too; also will be good for a general closeup map of the "metropolitan core" of the West Kootenay, which sorely needs doing.....where are you located, mts?  Want to suggest Olga Ruskin's The Gassy Jack Story or is it The Gastown Story which has some interesting detail on the first trips up Harrison Lake having to be sail-driven as the boilers hadn't arrived from the UK or US yet, and also there's detail in Frances Decker's Pemberton: History of a Settlement on the Prince of Wales and the Lillooet Lake vessels; got some great pics (pd) available when I do the Lakes Route steamer article/stub...one question about those; the usual title is "steamboats" for these articles; one of the last non-Hydro/railway/forestry services to run on Seton Lake was Marshall's Ferry, but AFAIK it was a diesel; Hydro's and the other latter-day watercraft tend to be motorlaunches, during rail, mines and hydro construction there were barges on Seton, but I don't think any were named.  Just wondering if there might be a better-catchall term....Vessels of the Lakes Route maybe?  Other than Ernie Marshall's boat, I'm not sure the hydro etc boats warrant mention other than in passing; most don't have names, I think; and earlier industrial waterservices there like Foley, Welch & Stewart's railway construction parties, on both lakes, used AFAIK the little steamers that were already on the lakes; but I think they built some; I've never been able to find details though.....another article that popped to mind that's a no-brainer is Steamboats of Lake Okanagan or Steamboats of Okanagan Lake - I prefer the former, being old-fashioned/traditionalist about such names; the Fintry (sternwheeler) is the only one I can think of just now, I know there were more.  See Dewdney Trail's map - I think I had some very roughly-drawn colonial/gold rush water routes on there, FYI.Skookum1 (talk) 15:31, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah on the Dewdney Trail map I see I didn't have any Columbia/Arrow runs; didn't know the Big Bend had been serviced by river from the south, although I guessworked the Kootenai R/Kootenay Lake....I'll see if I can get a better map made; a Dewdney Trail map would be more meaningful, like a CPR southern mainline/KVR map, if it showed US side trails (or in the second case rail lines), which will demonstrate why the southern cross-BC routes were so vitally needed.....a Boundary-West Kootenay close up map is gonna be necessary for all the little rail lines, that's for sure....the Steamboats of Puget Sound and other local saltwater articles make me wonder if equivalents for certain parts of the Gulf of Georgia would be worth it; too complicated I think; but some day I'd like to look up Vancouver archives or wherever for business/license listings for all the old water taxi/local steamer docks that ran out of the docks at the north foot/feet of Cambie, Abbott, Carrall and Columbia; there were tons of them, up to Indian Arm, up to the Sunshine Coast and Bowen, and of course to the North Shore; a whole period of water service in BC history, separate from the Inside Passage, but I wouldn't be suree what to call such an article, as several bodies of water were involved....Passenger vessels of Burrard Inlet, Indian Arm, English Bay and Howe Sound seems too much ;-)_Skookum1 (talk) 15:39, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Interesting resource
In the Columbia Basin section of the Royal BC Museum's Living Landscapes project I found this article on shipwrecks of the Kootenays; includes Slocan and Trout Lakes, interestingly; might be some useful tidbits for the various subarticles on steamers, no?Skookum1 (talk) 16:15, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Minto gallery
Not sure where to put this, other than external links; it's a gallery of images of the Minto on the CBT site: http://www.virtualmuseum.ca/Exhibitions/Hydro/en/communities/minto.php here it is] and I guess it'll be useeful for the eventual Minto article....Skookum1 (talk) 14:59, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I have this gallery as an xlink on the new Minto article now.Mtsmallwood (talk) 12:40, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Improvements to article
This article is at best 1/2 done. I am gradually writing the articles on the steamboats that ran on the Arrow Lakes. I have finished the most important one, which was on Minto and I have started on Columbia (sternwheeler), Nakusp and Revelstoke. I hope soon to be able to use that material to complete the overall Arrow Lakes article.Mtsmallwood (talk) 12:37, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

the Arrow
the A. Arrow never worked the Arrow Lks so it has been deleted.
 * Important question - was it on the Columbia, i.e. below Arrow Lake, north of Kettle Falls? if so, it should still be there; the article title IMO should say "of the Arrow Lakes and Columbia River]]Skookum1 (talk) 01:49, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Turner, Sternwheelers and Steam Tugs says, at 34, that on January 3, 1896, the small steam tug Arrow capsized while trying to break ice in the Narrows, drowning her captain and engineer.Mtsmallwood (talk) 06:00, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

route/schedule card
In The directory of mines (corrected and published quarterly) : a guide for the use of investors and others interested in the mines of British Columbia (1897) I found a listing of routes and schedules for the Kootenay rail/steam network for 1897; by Alexander Begg. There's probably lots more to be found in Begg's History of British Columbia from its earliest discovery to the present time (1894)] will probably have lots on steamboats and their captains and companies.....Skookum1 (talk) 03:51, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
 * this is an interesting source, I haven't had a chance to review it in detail.Mtsmallwood (talk) 18:43, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Glad you like it. Check out Mark S. Wade's The Thompson Country on that same website, and also online elsewhere via a link on the Thompson Country article; good detail on Shuswap-Thompson boats, which I'm sorry I've been distracted and haven't gotten to, and also I think on the Okanagan boats, which again I've been distracted from writing up properly; if you look for F.W. Howay and E.O.S. Sholefield on the same site you'll find their history of BC; Vol. II should have the Columbia/Kootenay, Vol I may be where the early Fraser/Stikine etc vessels are....lots of corporate history/politics in both volumes and in all authors.Skookum1 (talk) 20:31, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Somewhere I saw a detailed page on the upper-upper Columbia runs (Golden/Spillamacheen to Columbia Lake and the upper Kootenay/Kootenai runs....I'll see if I can remember where it is; I'm gonna make public a sandbox I'm building of such resources for PacNW history; the idea is a Pacific Northweest working group attached to the related wikiprojects.....interested?Skookum1 (talk) 20:33, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

List of vessels table
The following table was blanked on the Steamboats of the Lower Fraser River and Harrison Lake by User:Emarsee; it had been created by an IP users and was on the wrong talkpage, if anywhere it belongs here for future reference and possibly as its own list article; I'll make it collapsed so it doesn't take up space here. Emarsee blanked the whole page a few times, as well as placed an AfD on the Fraser/Harrison article, which remains underway and should never have been started, but that's beside the point here; this was a valuable list for future use/reference, its destruction as well as the AfD were highly questionable and destructive as well as WP:BITE.Skookum1 (talk) 06:14, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

The following steamboats and related vessels operated on these lakes:

These are probably all already on List of historical ships in British Columbia, if not at some later point I'll move some over; the tonnage and other data columns are a useful model for use on other ship-list articles, e.g. the Skeena River and Upper Fraser ones now already extant.Skookum1 (talk) 06:23, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

British Library image from Commons
is among the images just made available on the Commons from the British Library. That's the filename on the Commons,, no time just now to look as to where to put it, but obviously worth having on this page, maybe on the provincial article (if there is one).Skookum1 (talk) 14:17, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Ooops, well, no, I'll leave this here but will put this also on the talkpage at Kootenay Lake; there's no Steamboats of Kootenay Lake and the Kootenai River article yet...I think.Skookum1 (talk) 14:25, 3 July 2013 (UTC)