Talk:Story within a story

Merge with Frame tale?
I suggest this text be merged with Frame tale. -- April
 * While the current link from Frame story (to which Frame Tale redirects) could be considered enough, I think there's some merit to this idea, in the sense of bringing the Frame Story text in as a subtype of story within a story. BobGreenwade 16:57, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I support the notion that the articles should be merged because the difference of the terms is not made clear. Spannerjam 14:51, 2 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose, simply because while the literary trick these 2 articles are addressing is the same, the labels used are actually opposites, and therefore independently useful. That is, I have had occasion to link to Frame story because that's what I was writing about (the "outside" narrative element); in this context, I was explicitly not referring to a Story within a story (the "inside" narrative element). Phil wink (talk) 16:24, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

The Manuscript Found in Saragossa
Could someone please fill in a little more on how this technique is used in this story? BobGreenwade 16:22, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Joseph Conrad's The Heart of darkness
Joseph Conrad's The Heart of darkness is almost entirely a story within a story, with the main character retelling his travels.

That makes it a story within a story, not a story within a story within a story. And, if story X includes story Y, does it count as metafiction if the events of Y are true in the world of story X? Very often in an ordinary story, a character describes to another character events which happened. Anthony Appleyard 17:35, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I would say that a story must be fictional within the context of the containing story in order to be metafictional. If a character is telling a true (for him) story then it's not metafiction, it's just a recounting of events.  Thus, given the above-quoted description The Heart of Darkness would not count even at that level. BobGreenwade 20:19, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I disagree. When Marlow asks his audience on the ship something along the lines of "can you understand the story" "can you see the truth." This is a metafictional awareness of the untranslatability of experience, the deficit of language when relaying atrocity. On a narratological level, one can even see this as Conrad's attempt to traverse between author (implied author/narrator) to the implied reader/reader. He is in fact asking in a self aware method: "can you understand what I am saying?" "Half the words we use have no meaning whatever and of the other half each man understands each word after the fashion of his own folly and conceit" Conrad to Cunningham Graham. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.46.97.210 (talk) 06:31, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Hamlet
I can't see how the Mousetrap can be inside Hamlet... Rich  Farmbrough. 23:04, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
 * If you're thinking of Agatha Christie's Mousetrap, no, it isn't. But the play presented by the player troupe to the King, originally titled The Murder of Gonzago, is rewritten and re-titled (by Hamlet) The Mousetrap. BobGreenwade 18:01, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots
The very beginning of the game is one of the best examples of TV inside a video game. The player is forced to watch from a handful of channels while the first act of the game loads in the background for about 20 minutes. 70.189.204.143 (talk) 06:20, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Star Trek
Could someone please clarify the Star Trek reference in the "Story within a story within a story" section? The first sentence runs on a bit, and the references need to be clarified. BobGreenwade 16:07, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

But a rough echo
What, no mention of Tolkien? The Lord of the Rings is one of the most convoluted stories-within-a-story ever told, inasmuch as Tolkien spun the The Hobbit and LOTR as yarns upon which to hang snippets of his epic poetry about elvish heroes long since gone. It's easy to see why many readers suppose Aragorn's recital of the Tale of Tinuviel to be merely colorful detail or foreshadowing, but Beren's story was written (albeit not published) before Sauron was much more than Melkor's minion. See here and here. The man loved a good frame narrative. Asat 16:58, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Wuthering Heights?
Is this considered a story-within-a-story? It would be a good example to quote, if it is. The outer story is told briefly at the beginning and the end, and (iirc) at a few random moments in between. 99% of the text is the inner story. The clever part is the way they link together, imo; the inner story's listener decides whether or not to buy the house, on the basis of the story. Bards 09:32, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Grand Inquisitor
I don't think that the Grand Inquisitor sums up Dostoevsky's own ideas. In fact there is some evidence to the contrary, that he in fact completely disagreed with Ivan's assertions. See Guignon's Introduction to the Grand Inquisitor where he says, "It would be a serious mistake, however, to regard the Grand Inquisitor story as stating Dostoevsky's own view in any way. Dostoevsky made it quite clear that he regarded the passages titled 'Rebellion' and 'The Grand Inquisitor' as 'expressions of atheism,' reflections of the viewpoint of the 'athiest' and 'anarchist' Ivan Karamazov, which he hoped to refute in the following book, 'The Russian Monk.'" Author's emphasis. Igtbtk8 23:54, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

change it then —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drumnbach (talk • contribs) 18:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Moulin Rouge?
The movie Moulin Rouge (as directed by Baz Luhrmann) is a movie about a play performed at the Moulin Rouge, in Paris, France. The play within the movie shares a similar plotline as the movie. The play also serves to foreshadow a number of events taking place within the movie (e.g., Zidler, in the audio background saying, "The lovers are discovered" only moments before catching the lead characters necking. The song "Come What May" is chosen by the lead characters to be the song that binds their love and courage together, and is written into the play for that very same purpose.)

Song within a song
Could the "x" within an "x" article be extended to include a song within a song? One possible example that springs to mind is the recently released Kid Rock offering "All Summer Long". During the course of the lyrics, he refers to "Singing Sweet Home Alabama", with accompanying instrumental excepts from that song. Another example might be "The Wedding", which uses the words and melody from "Ave Maria" - and is commonly mistakenly called the latter. These are both examples of actual pre-existing songs within a song, but perhaps some suitably rigorous investigation may reveal instances of a song during which a different, original song is performed? I don't know if Tenacious D's "Tribute" would rate a mention in this article - as they are merely performing "a tribute to the best song in the world" and do not actually perform the song to which they refer, as they "couldn't remember the greatest song in the world". 138.77.2.130 (talk) 04:15, 16 February 2009 (UTC)Craig Macdonnell138.77.2.130 (talk) 04:15, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Lord of the Flies
Isn't lotf a huge example of a story within a story? Or is that symbolism? It kind of blurs the line, because while piggy for example is a symbol of science, there's an actual storyline in which what the boys symbolize is affected by events and the way it is affected by events provides a commentary on human nature... Not sure if that make sense; I'm afraid it's a bit convoluted. Anyways i'll just leave this here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Incogniot (talk • contribs) 14:08, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Bowfinger
Classic example of film within a film, the film storyline even convinces one character that the film is really happening. 98.172.160.190 (talk) 23:43, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Off Topic
I came to this page to get some hints as to what professional writers have to say about embedding stories within stories. Instead, I was handed a litany of stories in stories by a bunch of people who are advocating their favorite show. Stories in stories happen a lot in Star Trek? That's interesting... what does Gene Roddenberry have to say about their use? What do T.V. critics have to say is the value of the story within the story format of these episodes? If the article can't explain this, then the paragraph is trivia.

Would it be kosher to have a section labeled "Examples", or another entry entirely for this? That way readers who stumble into this page don't have to poke through every paragraph to find encyclopedic information on the writing form? Heck, I'd even pitch in to do a little organization, in hopes this bore fruit and gathered citations. My own book is very story in story, and I'd love to see more research on the subject. Jmgariepy (talk) 21:52, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree, it's effectively an extension of TV Tropes. 81.107.159.235 (talk) 12:19, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

"Play within a play" spinoff
Is this section big enough to stand on its own as a sub-article? I'm thinking of making the change, subject to other contributors' views. --Old Moonraker (talk) 12:03, 13 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I would suggest a short summary here and its own article. However, the material currently here isn't well-sourced. DionysosProteus (talk) 16:18, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I would try to improve the referencing (or, if WP:NN applies, make some deletions) when copy-editing the transfer. There is always the last-ditch possibility of using  the work itself as the reference—permitted in When to cite—but it should be possible to do better than that. --Old Moonraker (talk) 10:00, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Original Research
I've just cleaned up this article a little, although it is still in a pretty sorry state and lacks citations throughout. I have edited to remove the use of "fictional fictional characters" and all variants on this idea. I did a significant amount of research on this subject a while ago, in response to finding it on Wikipedia, and was able to conclude that no such concept exists. Similarly, there is no such thing as "metametafiction" or any variety thereof. These notions were entirely original research that was being added by a small number of Wikipedia editors with no basis in reliable, third-party sources--principally by means of Wikipedia's category structure. To clarify for future reference: all characters, by definition, are fictional. The adjective "fictional" in the phrase "[Whoever] is a fictional character..." is entirely redundant; the phrase "[Whoever] is a character..." means exactly the same thing. DionysosProteus (talk) 14:22, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Fictional fictional characters are a valid topic; what is at dispute is only that name for them. A fictional fictional character is a character who only occurs in a story-within-a-story, if that story occurs complete only within the scenario of another fiction story and not in the real world. An example is the Captain Proton characters. This text was for a long time in page Fictional fictional character, until earlier today I text-merged it into here.
 * The adjective "fictional" ... is entirely redundant: most people DO often say "fictional character" to make the meaning clearer. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 15:27, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

No, they're not a valid topic. Notice that the article to which you refer was entirely unsourced, as is the overwhelming majority of the material in this article. I've done the research. No one, outside of Wikipedia, uses the phrase. Try some searching for yourself. You'll find only circular references back to Wikipedia. I understand how the editors want to use the term, but that use is bogus. And yes, in Wikipedia, often articles use the phrase "is a fictional character...", but the point is that in saying the word "character" you are automatically saying "fictional". It is, precisely, redundant--it only clarifies for someone who doesn't understand the meaning of the word "character". There is no such thing as a "real" character. I hadn't noticed that you'd restored some of that material. I've deleted it. If you can provide sources that use the term, then by all means restore it with citations. Otherwise, unsourced material--particlarly that which is misleading, as detailed above--may be removed at any time. DionysosProteus (talk) 15:41, 20 August 2010 (UTC) As I'm sure you know, a citation is required for any claim made in a Wikipedia article that is likely to be disputed. I have disputed it, clearly, above, and explained my reasons. I've invited you to go check for yourself. By listing them here, you are making a claim about their nature, not merely the fact that they exist. As such, that claim requires a citation. In lieu of that, they may be deleted at any time. Provide citations, and all is well. As I know from having done a substantial amount of research on precisely this question before, you won't find any. You'll need to explain what relevance the--again, unsourced--section on "fictional artists" has to the subject of this article too. I deleted it because I couldn't see any. DionysosProteus (talk) 15:58, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The reference for each character is the story that he/she occurs in. And, as I wrote above, fictional fictional characters are known; what is at dispute is only that name for them. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 15:53, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

A little joke
Should we move this to Storyception? Rusted AutoParts (talk) 16:32 12 January 2012 (UTC)

First Play to use the Play within the Play
In the article it says 'This dramatic device was probably first used by Thomas Kyd in The Spanish Tragedy around 1587, where the play is presented before an audience of two of the characters, who comment upon the action.[5]' - while it is obviously true that the play is presented before an audience of two of the characters this is not as such a play within the play because those two characters belong to that very world (they're just dead) - it only bares structural resemblence to a play-within-the-play. However, Hieronimo later does stage an actual play-within-the-play.

Apart from that the source cited here (Google Books Link) does not say anything about Kyd's tragedy probably being the first to use this device. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.34.214.122 (talk) 17:13, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Fixed, with a new ref. Thanks for pointing this out. --Old Moonraker (talk) 11:17, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Mariken van Nieumeghen, the earliest edition of which is dated 1515, has a play within a play. The first English edition dates from 1518 or thereabouts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.241.252.122 (talk) 18:48, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

The poems in Lewis Carroll's Alice duology
How come the poems from Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Through the Looking-Glass such as You Are Old, Father William, Jabberwocky, and The Walrus and the Carpenter aren't included? 71.95.53.89 (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

A list of examples
This entire article looks more like a huge list of examples, rather than an encyclopedic article. A very large portion of this article does not aid in understanding what a story within a story is, why people use this plot device, what critics think, I might even expect some philosophical aspects? Currently, I'd actually suggest making an entirely new article - "List of stories within stories" - while cutting out 90% of this article... Thoughts? Maplestrip (talk) 14:01, 3 November 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree completely. Much of this article is unverified trivia, not even arranged chronologically, which adds nothing to the understanding of a reader. Surely, what we need is an analysis of the device as used in ancient and modern cultures, backed by a few significant examples from generally recognised works? --Clifford Mill (talk) 12:09, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

i have a question
would a wii being in pokemon B2W2 count as game in a game? Valehd (talk) 21:40, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

The Wind Through The Keyhole
One of Stephen King's series of The Dark Tower books, this is a three-layer story; is it worth adding to the already-extensive examples list?

FrinkLabs (talk) 05:04, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Restructuring
I made some broad changes to merge duplicate sections, break out new sections that were not previously covered, and to move examples into their proper sections. Overall, no content was removed outside of duplicate information.

Fictional Artists
The fictional artists section seems misplaced on this page. I feel it should be moved to another page, made its own page, or just deleted. Kitoba (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

I have removed this section Kitoba (talk) 18:57, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Deeply Nested Fiction
Much of this section was redundant with the rest of the article. I removed it, and integrated the unique pieces into other sections. Kitoba (talk) 21:02, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

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