Talk:Substance 1987

Untitled
Can we turn this from a review into something encyclopedic? -Branddobbe 17:24, May 21, 2004 (UTC)

Article title
Should we move this to Substance 1987, its full name and hence avoid the messy page title as it is now?
 * "Substance 1987" is not necessarily the title of the album - on the CD version anyway, it says just "Substance" on the CDs and the sides of the box. I think the front cover is just stating the year - I don't think it's meant to be part of the title. --Zilog Jones 23:27, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * That may be so, but everybody who is 'in' to New Order refers to them as Substance and Substance 1987... Kiand 23:44, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I've been bold and move the article. --Kiand 18:11, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * But the album is called Substance, not Substance 1987. So, er... SaltyWater 20:48, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm going to move the page to its correct title. SaltyWater 11:30, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 * What does the front of the CD case say? "New Order - Substance 1987". Not just "Substance". --Kiand 20:36, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, it has 1987 on the front of the CD but it doesn't mean its called Substance 1987. SaltyWater 21:31, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * We're talking about a band who rarely put -anything- on the front of a CD here. When theres a name, thats going to be the full name. Note that the fan-run discographies call it Substance 1987, also, including the definitive niagra.edu and NewOrderOnline ones. --Kiand 21:40, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Movement has a year on it, is that part of the title too? SaltyWater 21:51, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * No, because its quite clearly seperated from the name due to being beside the record number (FACT/FACD/Whatever 50). But on Subtance, its positioned exactly as part of the name, as it is part of the name. --Kiand 21:53, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Why isn't the date written on the spine then? SaltyWater 22:00, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Good question, its missing from most but not all spines. It is, however, on many of the cassete inlay sleeves. Saville design decision, no doubt. However, doesn't change the fact that Substance 1987 is the name of the album, as can be confirmed by the Warner-endorsed fansite --Kiand 22:05, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * That's very nice, but because it's officially endorsed doesn't mean everything on there is gospel. Anyone else care to comment? I note the article has been moved back to Substance 1987. SaltyWater 22:47, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Because thats the name of the compilation, thats that. As goes "officially endorsed", it means something as its the only official website for the band that covers anything prior to WFTSC. They don't have an online catalogue, etc. All your reasonings as to why its not the name - lack of name on spine/back of sleeve, etc, are down to design issues, basically - the name on all non-Saville designed covers is "Substance 1987". Probably because thats its name. --Kiand 22:51, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * No need to be so rude. SaltyWater 23:48, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't see how thats "rude". The album has a name, and that is Substance 1987. Its pretty much as simple as that. --Kiand 00:03, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Substance VS Substance 1987
The album is called SUBSTANCE. Nothing more, nothing less. Those who are not familiar with the way label's designer Peter Saville works, tend to take the surface value as something official. First of all, Saville is all about design, not about how to properly present the title (or even the name of the band!). "Republic" has © in its title on the cover and that is the only place it appears there; that album is nevertheless officially refered to as "Republic". The same with "Movement" - the cover has the equally printed "FACT 50 1981" below the word "Movement". And yet the album is called simply "Movement". "Waiting for the Sirens' Call" has a big printed "NO" on the cover (and that's the entire design), which has again nothing to do with the title. AND FINALLY: I just looked at the official Warner New Order catalogue, supplied with "Get Ready": the album is listed there as "Substance", as well as on CD.

P.S. Here "1987" refers to the inner sleeve of the True Faith single that had come out earlier and which looks exactly the same with "Substance" being "True Faith" and "1987" being "1963" (!). It was only a sly reference, nothing more: he extrapolated the concept of single design into LP design. I just looked in the Peter Saville book, a collection of his design work, and it clearly shows "Substance" tagged as simply "Substance". That comes from the designer of the cover art! What else is needed in this case??? Klaus Bertow 11:06, 17 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Klaus Bertow (talk • contribs)

Track listings
What version are these track listings from? I have what's most definately a re-issue (CD), bought last year - no. 3984 28227 2. Seems to be published by London Records although it also says "©1990 CentreDate Ltd.". Anyway, from the listing in this article it appears to be the same as what's noted as the "Original Factory CD". Was it the US release that had the extra tracks (disc 2 tracks 3, 12, 13 and 15)? --Zilog Jones 23:46, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * No clue. I've got the same as you, bought in HMV on Henry Street. I guess its the US release, on Qwest. Kiand 23:52, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Its the UK CASSETTE version of all things. US used normal CD track listings.... Kiand 23:55, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Hmm, but it says how the "Cassette version places "Murder" (an instrumental single released in Benelux only) before "The Perfect Kiss"", but that listing there doesn't do that. I propose we make a separate list for the CD and tape versions if all this is true (and just note under the CD list how the vinyl is). Don't suppose anyone knows what the DAT track listings are, if any different? --Zilog Jones 00:29, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * OK, this is getting even weirder - the US version (according to here) is different again. It is like the UK CD version, but with Cries and Whispers in place of Mesh. --Zilog Jones 00:42, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * "Mesh" is "Cries and Whispers"; it was erroneously labelled on the original Factory CD releases (that's the one I have; I was the one that added the note about it omitting several tracks that apparently appear on other versions, can anyone confirm that they actually do?). I presume on the US edition it has just been labelled correctly, and there is nothing more to it. Hn 04:07, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)


 * http://www.niagara.edu/neworder/albums/suhttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Substance_%28New_Order_album%29&action=edit&oldid=44114789bstance1987.html --Hn 04:14, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)
 * OK, I think that clears up things. Thanks! --Zilog Jones 00:41, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Cries & Whispers / Mesh
The paragraph explaining the confusion between these song titles seems to be clear enough as it is. The recent edit changed the tense, which personally I think was unnecessary; the decision to edit "Perfect Kiss" was made twenty years ago (as of 2007) and the current version of Substance in print still dates from this time, so "was" rather than "is" is more accurate. Also, the comments about the cassette format were misleading and vague: "...holds the most music...". In relation to what? And what length of tape? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RobShaz (talk • contribs) 15:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC).

Fair use rationale for Image:New Order - Substance cover.png
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Confusion Instrumental
On my CD, it says "Confusion Instrumental" not "Confused Instrumental". The CD was released by Qwest Records / Warner Bros. Records in the US in 1987. 202.8.226.193 (talk) 05:20, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

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Substance II
Why is there no mention of Substance II in this entry when there is no side entry for it? Substance II was indeed released as a separate vinyl album from the original Substance (which is not called 1987, by the way). Only when the compilation was released on CD, they appeared together as one thing -- but there should be a mention that Substance II was its own thing before that, and there should be a picture with the black cover - 2804:14C:5B84:A788:36:546:40F1:5E5 (talk) 20:11, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Article Title II
I recently tried to move Substance 1987 to "Substance (New Order album)". I suspect some sort of restriction is put in place as the title seems to have some contention. Allow me to submit my two cents:

The album is called 'Substance' according to the first vinyl pressing. Aside from the cover art, the album is never referred to "Substance 1987" on the back cover or center labels, all which read "New Order - Substance" (or "New Order - Substance - Fact 200/#" on the center label, with the # being replaced by the side (1-4)). The year 1987 is displayed in large type on the label, but it isn't part of the title and seems more like a decoration that references the album cover.

This is also true for subsequent vinyl releases, as well as cassette releases (the album is titled on the cassette itself as all-caps "SUBSTANCE"), CD releases, etc... The only releases that call the album "Substance 1987" are unofficial cassette releases, according to Discogs.

This is a German Rough Trade insert from a white-label 1987 pressing: https://img.discogs.com/2ncd1MbJKUrxaZAyCNBN9w4VgOg=/fit-in/431x600/filters:strip_icc:format(jpeg):mode_rgb:quality(90)/discogs-images/R-7958623-1455475480-2157.jpeg.jpg. Note the top, the title is simply Substance.

This album is not called "Substance 1987". The cover is misleading. For those who still believe the cover should be the final say on the album title, please see other examples, like Sufjan Stevens' album Illinois. The album cover seemingly calls the album "Sufjan Stevens Invites You To: Come On Feel the ILLINOISE" but the album is truly called "Illinois". — Preceding unsigned comment added by D1119 (talk • contribs) 15:13, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

I agree the title should read “Substance” also while it may not be a official source Spotify also labels the album as simply “Substance” (https://open.spotify.com/track/3SBFG67CSynjdeyETVAsRF?si=x3J9HbqURgm4Hh7XGwVEqA). Obliviously content on Spotify is licensed to them by the record label, which means they also see the title as just “Substance” OBLIVIUS (talk) 03:42, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Bizarre Love Triangle labelled incorrectly?
I have both cds personally, and after listening through, the version of Bizarre Love Triangle on the album is actually the extended dance mix, not the original 1986 version. This is also specified on the album's spotify listing. Shouldn't this be specified on the page sense it's a completely different mix? GingerPatties95 (talk) 15:40, 24 October 2022 (UTC)