Talk:Sud Aviation Vautour

Untitled
09:44, 20 February 2007 (UTC)CastellPark==dispute tag== The de Havilland DH 108 Swallow broke the speed of sound in a shallow dive in 1948. Does this article mean that the Vautour was the first mainland European aircraft to break the speed of sound? If this is so, it needs to be clarified. Emoscopes Talk 03:38, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

The above observation is correct. In fact I would imagine several other European aircraft, mainly British would have broken the sound barrier in a shallow dive by 1952. However it might be the case that the Vautour was the first European twin engined aircraft to break the sound barrier. It is certainly wrong to say that the Vautour was the first "European aircarft" to break the sound barrier in a shallow dive. (User:Castell Park/my talk) 9.42 20 February 2007.

It's certainly confusing to distinguish between European and British aircraft now, though not in 1950. The first European (in the modern sense) single engined aircraft supersonic in a shallow dive was indeed the DH 108, the first twin the DH 110 (certainly on or before 1952/09/06).The DH 110 crashed at Farnborough that day after a supersonic demo143.167.6.222 15:34, 4 July 2007 (UTC)TSRL

After a pause for thought, why not just change "European" in the opening paragraph to "French". You could say "mainland European", but that sounds laborious and a bit old-fashioned. In any case, just after the end of WW2 there were only modern military European aviation industries in Britain and France.195.92.168.165 19:59, 4 July 2007 (UTC)TSRL

Writing French has the further advantage that it excludes the USSR. Was the MiG 15, like the F-86 supersonic in a dive? What else did they have in those secretive times? However, there is still an outstanding question: was the Vautour (first flight 1952/10/16) or the Mystere IV (first flight 1952/09/28) the first French aircraft to dive supersonically? The first flight dates are reliable, but the best supersonic flight dates I could find are less so: Vautour 1953/06/30 and Mystere 1953 January. If these are right, then the Vautour was not even first in France.195.92.168.163 21:32, 4 July 2007 (UTC)TSRL

According to the "Chronique de l'aviation" by Jacques Legrand, the first supersonic french plane was the Mystere II, wich broke the sound barrier in 1952/10/28 (during a dive), piloted by Marion Davis (an american pilot). The first french supersonic pilot was Roger Carpentier on 1952/11/12 in a Mystere II too. user:AdrK 10 july 2007

This looks right, AdrK. The official (?) Dassault site www.dassault-aviation.com agrees with your first Mystere II date, which seems to be the first Mystere II flight to cause a boom. Incidentally, their date for Carpentier is a month later than the one you quote, 52/12/12. They give the first Mystere IV supersonic flight date as 53/01/17, obviously later and in the month I quoted earlier. So Mystere II it is, and we have not one, but two French supersonic (in dive) aircraft before the Vautour! Let's just remove the first supersonic anything claim from the article entirely. 143.167.6.222 14:19, 12 July 2007 (UTC)TSRL

As, perhaps, a final thought on this, Jane's AWA 1956-7 notes the Vautour as the first French twin-engined aircraft to go supersonic in a dive: looks right after 50 years! 195.92.168.165 22:33, 14 July 2007 (UTC)TSRL


 * BION, Britain wasn't considered part of Europe until as late as 1973 when Britain joined the EEC. Before that 'Europe' didn't mean Britain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.100.255 (talk) 19:39, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Design
Shouldn't one point out that this is basically an upscaled copy of the venerable Messerschmidt ME-262?--Cancun771 (talk) 08:33, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm assuming you have reliable, verifiable sources to prove this, and have not based this soley on looks. - BillCJ (talk) 08:38, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

SO.4000 adapted?
Does Gunston's book really say that SNCASO adapted their SO.4000 design into the Vatour, or is the inline ref just for the date? The 4000 did have swept wings and two engines, though the latter were at the wing roots. It looks very different and was bigger and heavier and no mention is made of the Vatour on its page. Can someone check, please?TSRL (talk) 17:09, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 07:14, 30 April 2016 (UTC)