Talk:Sudovian language

Sudovian is ALIVE
it is very odd to read in here that everybody emphatically declares Sudovian dead. Sounds like the voice from Moscow and Minsk! Sudovian is very alive and spoken as the first language by a lot of folks. However, the Russian/Belorussian speakers and government have tried hard to destroy it by preventing its teaching, its speaking and by declaring it (pre maturely) as dead! In fact, the New York Times in 1992 carried an article on this odd issue. In it, it correctly observed that any child that speaks Sudovian at school will be punished. Some have been declared "mentally impaired" if they persist. Poor kids, they are just speaking what they learn from their mothers until such time they can also speak Russian (oh, yeah, "Belo"Russian). Sudovian language is very common at home in the western one-third of Belarus--the areas that were part of Poland until 1939. Please stop helping Moscow and Minsk in killing off Sudovian by parroting their ridiculous claim that Sudovian is dead. Not only it is alive, but the speakers being largely Protestants, resist death in the hands of Russian/Belo Russians and the Orthodoxy/Catholicism.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.184.225 (talk) 22:48, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * What was the article called 145.103.60.130 (talk) 11:04, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Ptolemy's Σουδινοί - Σουδιυοί
It is possible that Ptolemy's Σουδινοί is perhaps a manuscript copy error for Σουδιυοί (Soudivoi). Since his manuscripts survive only thru copies, the possibility of a error must be considered. If Greek "υ" was mistaken for "ν", Σουδιυοί would resemble current Sūduviai. --Sudowite (talk) 15:24, 09 January 2010 (UTC)

Old talk
User:David Parker, you added a Sudovian language, which I did not. I do not know of a seperate Sudauer or Sudovian language, even though Jatwingian is recorded seperately.The Jatwiger-Sudauer inhabitants are recorded in southern Prussia, which reached further than it did in later years. Between circa 1700 and 1900 several Prussian Vocabularies (Woerterbuecher) were written, but I do not believe a seperate Sudovian language article should exist. Wikipedia has separate language articles for High German, Old High German, Low German, Austrian German, Czech, Slovak, etc. The Soudinoi were documented in the 2nd Century up to the 1500's, and their language remains to this day in hydronyms ( Narew, Kirsna rivers), toponyms (Suduva), and in dialects of Polish, Belarus, and Lithuanian. Fortunately, many have escaped the chauvinistic ethnocide that befell the Old Prussian toponyms in the Russian Kaliningrad Oblast, and in Poland. A separate article is at the least historically substantiated.

Wikipedia has a separate language article for the Wichita language. It states there is only one speaker.

Wikipedia has a separate language artcle for the Yuchi language. It states there are 5 speakers.

There are other examples from Wikipedia, but I will respect the expressed concern about conserving bandwidth, which I gather is the crux of the discussion.

Whoever you claim to be (and if you want to engage in discussion or have your "articles" taken seriously you can start by giving a NAME), there is no such word in the English langiage as Sudauer, and this is an-English-language encyclopedia.

Sudauer is perfectly legitimate in German Wikipedia, but has no legitimate existence here as a title. The English word for the German Sudauer is Sodovian or Sudovians.

Jatvingian (no w in English) is considered another name for or a part of a single language or dialect with the more common name Sudovian. It's stupid to put two equivalent names in the title. It's one or the other, with links from the less-used Jatvingian and Yotvongian.

You so far have Sudovian as a dialect of Old Prussian, and as a language in its own right (which means Old Prussian has to be a language group, not a language. Which is it to be? You created a separate article, not me. Think for once before filling Wikipedia with this drivel. User:David Parker


 * Whoever our mystery author is, he/she assumes, David, that you are more familiar with the common English word "Vocabularies" rather than the definitive German word "Woerterbuecher". MichaelTinkler

Hiya folks. Now now. I vote for the merger, as the use of Sudovian alone would mean primarily the Sudovian language in English. To mean something else Sudovian, you would have to have been talking about it previously.

Actually, whether a language is a dialect or a distinct language is a serious qustion in linguistics. It depends on what you mean by dialect. Maybe that should be defined and referenced. The term is somewhat amorphous. The question comes up when languages are close. I've looked at both Prussian Reconstructions and the Verdainas site. Sudovian and Old Prussian are pretty close, but they are not the same. But you know, I'd like to know where the Verdainas gets its Sudovian!

Anyway, I believe the linguists classify the three as West Baltic, a group of languages, as opposed to East Baltic, another such group. I don't know much about Galindian, and there can't be much to know. People use these terms sometimes for hypothetical languages when everyone thinks the language is known. I'd like to know who knows it.

If part of Lithuania is Sudovia, that is because the ancient Sudovians there assimilated to the Lithuanians. It is a common phenomenon. The Alans, for example, were once an Iranian-speaking people. They were pushed into the Caucasus by the Huns. Today about half the Alans speak Caucasian and have their own state, but they descend from the ancestors of the Iranian Alans.

Sudovia fought for the Prussians, and so the Deutchen Orden came after them too, pillaging, burning, killing and expelling. Nobody thinks they behaved too well. As for the double name, the Sudovians got that in deep antiquity. I think they got it from the Goths, who once ruled Prussia. When the ancient sources speak of Gothic or Vandalic territory in the north (same people), they mean Gothic-dominated Baltic territory. It is generally thought that Danzig (Gdansk) was founded by Goths, just as Elbing was founded by Vikings. Either Sudovii or Iotvingi was assigned by the Goths. I'd like to write about it here but I need to research it first. Why don't you do the same?

As for the foreign words, gee, it is hard to avoid them when you are writing about foreign countries. There ought to be a standard but it has to be flexible.

There are plenty of definitive English words, such as "dictionary." Sometimes you like to speak more abstractly.

Sudovians vs. Yotvingans
Please see Talk:Sudovians. mikka (t) 17:06, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Pogańskie gwary z Narewu
I've removed links to some alleged "reconstructed" Jatvingian dictionary hosted on some public web service from ==External links==. Lithuanian Wikipedia apparently has an article on Narevo pagonių šnektų žodynėlis, quoting some Zinkevičius' works, and this appears to be the only source on the Internet on the preserved Jatvingian dictionary, so if any Lithuanian-speaker could import some of the information from there it would be highly appreciated :D --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 07:34, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually there is much more now and I added some text. More to follow. 04:06, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Балто-славянские исследования. 1985. М., 1987:
 * В.Э. Орел, Е.А. Хелимский. Наблюдения над балтийским языком польско-«ятвяжского» словарика, стр. 121-134.
 * К. Карулис. К ятвяжскому словарику, стр. 134-140.
 * Т.М. Судник. Замечания к польско-ятвяжскому словарику, стр. 140-142.

It looks like there is enough sources for a separate article. Staszek Lem (talk) 04:06, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

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Sudovian Incubator
The Sudovian Incubator test wiki project had been deleted so the link had been removed. --47.156.8.3 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:14, 6 April 2018 (UTC)