Talk:Sumgait

Economics
The number of 240$/head GDP seems highly unlikely, considering the numbers for Azerbaijan as a whole: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan

240$ would put this city among the poorest in the world. -- 88.217.64.108 (talk) 17:52, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Comment
"In February of 1988 the Armenians (Christians) living in Sumqayit were massacred by the local Azeri (Muslim) population. About 33 Armenians died and over 2000 were injured in 3 days of ethnic rioting." This statement is not strictly true. It should read "In February of 1988 a number of Armenians (Christians) living in Sumqayit ...." Clearly if only 33 (estimated) were killed, then not all of "the Armenians living in Sumqayit" could have been massacred. Skinsmoke 00:31, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Where is the source of information?
Here is the statement: "The second day after the riotings 3 Armenians rebels from Russia were arrested who admitted starting the riots. They were deported to Russia where they were tried."

Took a stab at removing POV statements in "history"
I think the section reads a lot less emotionally. It also seems more encyclopedic now that its been placed in the larger tensions between the Armenians and Azeris. Bobak 01:33, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I also created an actual "history" section that talks about more than just that incident. Now the city has a story. Bobak 01:58, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Qazax which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 09:44, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Second or third largest city?
Is this the second or third largest city in Azerbaijan? The data seems at odds with what is claimed here. Uhooep (talk) 23:11, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 24 November 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Page moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jerm (talk) 01:27, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Sumqayit → Sumgait – The letter "q" of Azerbaijani is transliterated as "g" in English. Current name looks like a half-transliteration, half-nativename — CuriousGolden (T·C)  09:42, 24 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Support A fully transliterated version would be better suited for a wikipedia article Kevo327 (talk) 11:27, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi, I've changed the edit request from Sumgayit to Sumgait as I think it's a better transliteration. As you have voted already for "Sumgayit", I'm informing you about the name change. — CuriousGolden (T·C)  17:17, 24 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment if we reach a consensus, I think we should do the same to Quba, Oğuz and other semi-native or natively named articles (like Qırmızı Qəsəbə), we are in the English wikipedia after all - Kevo327 (talk) 14:09, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Quba and Qırmızı Qəsəbə are fully in native name, so I don't see problem with it. We usually use native Latin letters for not-so-famous cities/villages per WP:UE. — CuriousGolden (T·C)  14:14, 24 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Support to Sumgait per search results. Sumgait: 4,220, Sumgayit: 1,260, Sumqayit: 708. --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  17:13, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree with this. Changed my move request to Sumgait. — <b style="color:#c29d25">Curious</b><b style="color:#c29d25">Golden</b> (T·C) </b> 17:17, 24 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Support to Sumgait I also agree with this transliteration. thank you for informing on the change. <b style="color:#d90012"> K </b><b style="color:#000000">evo</b><b style="color:#d90012">3</b><b style="color:#0033a0">2</b><b style="color:#f2a800">7</b> (talk) 17:36, 24 November 2020 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 10 March 2021
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 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Not moved. -- Calidum 18:00, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Sumgait → Sumqayıt – restore actual current name in English of city per WP:MODERNPLACENAME and WP:NAMECHANGES, as (a) current and (b) reliable for purpose WP:RS such as Lonely Planet, The Guardian etc. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:11, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Lonely Planet, like en.wp, uses full font set for Turkish and Azerbaijani bios and geos: Lonely Planet Georgia, Armenia & Azerbaijan 2016 "... Armenians were massacred in the Azerbaijan town of Sumqayıt, violence spiralled in both republics, and Azeris in Armenia and Armenians in Azerbaijan started to flee."
 * NB Guardian 2014 has difficulty with Turkish small ı in its font set and MOS, but the spelling is correct: "Javid Nabiyev and his partner exchanged vows in presence of a handful of friends earlier this week in Sumqayit on the Caspian sea, a year after they first met." In ictu oculi (talk) 14:14, 10 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Strongly Oppose. Not only is "Sumgait" the anglicized name, which WP:UE and WP:ENGLISH encourage us to prefer, but it's also the WP:COMMONNAME ("Sumgait" is not a new or changed name as the OP suggests, it's simply an anglicisation of the native name). A huge majority of WP:RS refer to the city as "Sumgait":
 * BBC, BBC
 * RFE/RL
 * Al Jazeera
 * Guardian
 * France24
 * Reuters, Reuters
 * Associated Press
 * New York Times
 * LA Times
 * The Economist — <b style="color:#c29d25">Curious</b><b style="color:#c29d25">Golden</b> (T·C) </b> 14:19, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The first source you've given is 1998. New York Times is 1988, discussing the Soviet Union. Can you edit those links please to restrict to the last 10 years. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:00, 10 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME, WP:RECOGNIZABILITY, WP:UE. Searching Google Scholar for "Sumgait is" and "Sumqayıt is" (to filter out non-English results) finds that the former is used more than 10 times as often. Sumgait is several times as common filtering for post-2010 results. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  02:53, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Third or Second largest
There's a discussion in Talk:Ganja, Azerbaijan that affects this article. — <b style="color:#c29d25">Curious</b><b style="color:#c29d25">Golden</b> (T·C) </b> 05:49, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Controversy regarding Sumgait pogrom
The Sumgait pogrom was part of a broader inter-ethnic conflict between Azerbaijanis and Armenians, in which up to 200 local Armenians were killed by Azerbaijanis. Aside from murder, rape and riot also took place.

Results on Google and Google Scholar are littered with mentions of the pogrom, which is sometimes referred to as a "massacre", while Soviet and international sources have called the designated the event a "genocide"; some sources call it a "riot". Yet it is mentioned wherever one looks. Let's take a quick look at the Encyclopædia Britannica, which is written by actual scholars.

'''Sumqayıt, formerly Sumgait, city, eastern Azerbaijan. Sumqayıt lies at the mouth of the Sumqayıt River as it enters the Caspian Sea, on the northern side of the Abşeron Peninsula. Founded in 1944 as a suburb of Baku and achieving city status in 1949, Sumqayıt grew rapidly as a major chemical and metallurgical centre, largely on the basis of petroleum from the peninsula. Its vast modern factories produce aluminum, steel pipes for the oil industry, synthetic rubber, fertilizers, detergents, and petrochemicals. In February 1988 riots in the city killed more than 30 people, wounded some 200, and produced thousands of refugees; most of the victims were Armenians, who constituted a large minority of the population. Pop. (2007 est.) 268,800.'''

Around a quarter of the article talks about the pogrom. It is evident that the massacre is a vital part of Sumgait's history. And yet, the very mention of the pogrom on the page of Sumgait proper seems to be controversial.

The respective pogroms against Azerbaijanis by Armenians are also discussed in the introductions of Khojaly, Nagorno-Karabakh, and Gugark, Armenia, respectively.

There is no reason to omit mention of this gruesome massacre on the city's Wikipedia page; after all, it had a profound impact on the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict as a whole, and thus, on the regional—and thus, international—geo-political situation. BaxçeyêReş (talk) 16:13, 4 June 2021 (UTC)


 * If you want to have a productive discussion, you should talk politely. If you're wondering what you've said is not polite, at least not by opportunists on Wikipedia who pursue pushing their own POV. You should WP:AGF.
 * There is no rational reason to... - again, asserting that others are irrational is not polite. it had a profound impact on the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict as a whole... - if so, why is it nowhere mentioned on that page?
 * Around a quarter of the article talks about the pogrom - that does not appear to me to be true.
 * William M. Connolley (talk) 17:49, 4 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Dear William M. Connolley, stating that there are opportunists and people who want to push their POV (not attacking Grandmaster or you or any specific users) on this website is not controversial, but okay. For the sake of this argument, I shall retract what I have said.
 * Secondly, I fail to see how broadly stating that omitting mention of a massacre, which is named after and which occurred in a city, is immoral is not impolite, but I shall remove that statement, too, for the sake of decency.
 * Thirdly, the Sumgait pogrom did coincide w/ the beginning of the First Nagorno-Karabakh War, and it did have a profound impact on it. As did the Baku, Khojaly, Gugark, and other massacres.
 * Lastly, the Britannica article on Sumgait contains about 118 words, of which 34 are about the killing of Armenians. That is around 29% and thus even more than a quarter. BaxçeyêReş (talk) 20:33, 4 June 2021 (UTC)


 * BaxçeyêReş, firstly, this is an article about a city, and not a particular event in its history. Normally, an event like an ethnic riot is not something you put in the lead. The lead should contain a general information about the city. Secondly, your edit has serious POV issues. The riots and pogroms did not take the lives of 200 persons. Official death toll is 32. And the death of 32 persons, while a tragedy, is not a genocide, and the vast majority of reliable sources do not call it a genocide. Your edit is not in line with WP:NPOV. In general, the events of 1988 should have a general mention in the article, with a link to the main article about the pogrom, where the reader can find a detailed information. Grand  master  18:20, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Dear Grandmaster, the Sumgait pogrom was as little of a "riot" (by Armenians) as the Gugark and Khojaly massacres were "riots" (by Azerbaijanis). It was a massacre; a killing; a pogrom. You are already pushing your own POV in the second sentence of this statement, which is why I took this to WP:ANI in the first place.
 * Why does Khojaly/Ivanyan not contain only basic information about that city? Why does Gugark neither? Because these places are associated with massacres. The first search results on Google and the Encyclopædia Britannica alike mention the pogrom as it was an undeniable event of this city's history. It should be mentioned in the introduction—as a parallel to other places in Armenia and Azerbaijan where massacres took place—and it should have its own separate subsection in the article. This should not be controversial, and there are very obviously precedents (see other articles). Just look at Khojaly_(town), for instance.
 * Lastly, I specifically said "up to 200 people", but if the general consensus is indeed 32 dead and 200 injured, let's go for that. No issue on my part. (Btw, yes, genocide mention doesn't have to be included. I just took that from the main page, but that's fine.) BaxçeyêReş (talk) 20:41, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Riot is the word used by the source that you provided above, i.e. Britannica, yet you accuse me of pushing POV. I don't think personal comments are really helpful. Sumgait is the third largest city of Azerbaijan, after Baku and Ganja. It cannot be compared with small rural settlements like Khojaly_(town) or Gugark, where not much happened other than those tragic events. Plus, Khojaly is an occupied town, the original population of which was completely displaced as result of Khojaly massacre. Sumgait could rather be compared with a large city like Odessa. You do not see Odessa pogroms mentioned in the lead, the events are briefly summarized in the text, with a link to the main article. It should be the same here. Sumgait as a city was built in 1948, before it was a small village, but the section on Soviet period contains no information, other than the pogrom. It certainly was not the only thing that happened in the city in 40 years of Soviet era. This article certainly needs work, on that section and others, but every event should be put in a perspective, and not be given a disproportional weight. The article on the city should not be turned to a small copy of the article about pogrom. And sources used by you are highly problematic. As I said before, death of 32 persons, of which 26 were Armenian, is not a genocide. Any author who writes that has serious issues with neutrality, or comprehension of what genocide actually means. Grand  master  08:26, 5 June 2021 (UTC)


 * I saw this on the ANI, and as a DRN volunteer- I wanted to see how it was going before it appeared on our docket. BaxçeyêReş, my strong advice is to walk away from this article. You have cast aspersions in every post you have made. You walked into this discussion assuming that every other person is out to, as you put it at the ANI, whitewash history. You cannot conceive of any other reasonable reason why they wouldn't instantly accept your changes and as such- you are not listening to the Very reasonable reasons you are being given. The events were a horrible tragedy- no argument from any person here. HOWEVER- the encyclopedia is not a place to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, it is a place to unemotionally summarize sources. Sources use the word riots, sources say 32 killed- so those are the words we must use. And 1 event in the history of a city, cannot be given more weight than it has had. IE- look at the page for Atlanta, GA, USA- in the 1860's it was burned to the ground by the Union Army of the united states- dozens of people were killed, the city was under siege for 4 months- it is a HUGE and MAJOR portion of the city's history.... it is summarized by 1 small paragraph in the wikipedia article. Now, there are also articles on That specific event which go into much more detail- but the point I am making is- the city page is not the appropriate place to expand beyond a basic summary. That is not me or anyone else trying to push our POV- its saying that for a page that is about the entire history and present of a city- we cannot spend too long on one incident- no matter how important. So, please stop assuming the worst of those who do not agree with your edits, be kind, WP:AGF and do better in your discussions. Nightenbelle (talk) 18:37, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Trust me, my fellow Wikipedian, I have walked away from this article, and I'm not coming back. All I will say now is that my own Kurdish family was caught up in the Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict. They witnessed the atrocities in Nagorno-Karabakh themselves, and I do not appreciate a Westerner lecturing me on the realities of post-Soviet conflicts. One cannot rationally compare artificial North American settlements to places like the Caucasus, endowed with millenia of civilization, war, and peace. That Americanocentric comparison is an insult to every Kurd, Armenian, Azerbaijani, and other inhabitant of the Caucasus. BaxçeyêReş (talk) 18:44, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Missing a climate designation
The city has cold semi arid climate like Baku? דולב חולב (talk) 01:43, 1 March 2024 (UTC)