Talk:Sunderland A.F.C. supporters

List of Celebrity Fans - make sure references are reliable
Hi guys :-)

Just a small clarification. When you add people to the list of celebrity fans, make sure the reference is credible, a quote or someone testifying to them being Sunderland fans.

Don't rely on blog lists or fan websites simply listing people, because very often they assume celebrities to be Sunderland fans simply because they're from Sunderland.

For example, this link: - People like quoting it, but it's inaccurate. Olga Korbut... I haven't seen any reference to her supporting Sunderland; Gina McKee said she doesn't follow football or support anyone, even though she voiced a documentary about SAFC; Neil Tennant, never saw any reference to him supporting Sunderland; Lord David Puttnam supports Tottenham; yet in this link, they were presented as Sunderland fans, which isn't really true.

Make sure you find reliable references! I've listed the following celebrities, and all have reliable references:

Athletes

 * Paul Collingwood - cricketer.
 * Steve Cram - track and field athlete, silver medal at the 1984 Olympic Games.
 * Tony Jeffries - professional boxer, bronze medal in the 2008 Summer Olympics.
 * John Lowe[] - darts world champion.
 * Martin O'Neill - Northern Irish football manager and player.

Business

 * Peter Vardy - businessman, automotive retail business.
 * Tom Cowie - businessman, Arriva Group.

Comedians

 * Alfie Joey - comedian, radio presenter.
 * Bobby Knoxall - comedian.

Film

 * Melanie Hill - actress, Auf Wiedersehen, Pet, Coronation Street.
 * Peter O'Toole - stage and film actor, T. E. Lawrence in Lawrence of Arabia, record for the most Academy Award nominations for acting without a win.
 * David Parfitt - Oscar-winning producer.
 * Richard Short - stage and film actor.
 * Gabe Turner  - One of the founders of Fulwell 73.

Music

 * Don Airey - keyboardist, Deep Purple.
 * Thomas Allen - operatic baritone.
 * Tasmin Archer[] - pop singer.
 * Peter Brewis - Musician, Field Music.
 * Alex Kapranos - Scottish musician, Franz Ferdinand.
 * Lauren Laverne - singer, Kenickie.
 * Alan Price - keyboardist, The Animals.
 * Tim Rice - lyricist and author.
 * David A. Stewart - musician, Eurythmics.
 * Frankie Stubbs - punk musician, Leatherface.

Politicians

 * Ian Lucas - Labour MP for Wrexham, Wales.
 * Сhris Mullin - Labour MP for Sunderland South, journalist, author.
 * Jonathan Reynolds - Labour MP for Stalybridge and Hyde.

Television personalities

 * George Clarke - architect, television presenter, lecturer and writer.
 * Glenn Hugill[Safc mad celebs ] - [[television presenter]] and producer.
 * David Jones - sports presenter for Sky Sports.
 * Denise Robertson - writer and television broadcaster.

Writers and journalists

 * Kate Adie - journalist, Chief News Correspondent for BBC News.
 * James Herriot - veterinary surgeon and writer.
 * Terry Deary - children's author, Horrible Histories series.
 * Kevin Maguire - political journalist, associate editor at the Daily Mirror, reporter for The Guardian.
 * Jonathan Wilson  – Author, editor of The Blizzard and sports journalist for The Guardian.

Maxim.il89 (talk) 14:32, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Does the "nickname" section belong to this page?
User:ChrisTheDude, hi. I saw you removed it because you don't think it belongs to this page, I think it does, because fans get this nickname, too.

Anyway, starting a discussion here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maxim.il89 (talk • contribs) 11:59, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

"The Black Cats" is NOT a new nickname
Right, User:Koncorde - I get it, you want to edit war, but try use some common sense.

Just because some Guardian link said it was a NEW nickname, doesn't change the fact it wasn't. What do you know, sometimes journalists get it wrong.

First of all, it couldn't be a new official nickname because Sunderland didn't have an old official nickname... so it implies like the "black cats" wasn't a nickname before, which is nonsense, because writing "black cats" and "Sunderland" together finds loads of references showing this nickname has been used for over a century. Maxim.il89 (talk) 22:10, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I have no intention of edit warring. I am asking you to use reliable sources that say the thing you are claiming. More importantly, I am asking for reliable sources that:
 * Don't repeat Sunderland AFC as the source for the claim (promotional)
 * Don't exist only after 2000 when the stories were propagated (as your source, Dave Hillam, says)
 * Actually says "Sunderland have been known as the Black Cats" or words to that effect. Not "had a black cat at a cup final" or "they have used pictures of the black cat".
 * A search of books available online for instance shows one hit. But it's unclear in what context (it may be referring to the vote, for example).
 * A search of generic google results brings up a lot of forums, and amateur historians, but no reliable source that I can see.
 * What I can find is, for instance, a reference to "Sunderland 1990 Annual. Black Cat Publications" (and subsequently 91, 92) with the name Alan Brett associated with it, and an online publication (no idea what it is) but that is from 1996 and repeats the same black cat being found story and it being a mascot appears to be the only pre-2000 usage.
 * Any other such references to Black Cat, such as this article on a fan site was written long after the fact.
 * Any book I have makes no mention of it - or even the mascot element. Koncorde (talk) 23:14, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Sunderland literally had a black cat on their logo originally.
 * It's always been a Sunderland symbol.
 * Go edit war somewhere else. Maxim.il89 (talk) 00:31, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Neither of those are reliable sources, neither say the nickname of the club, or fans, was ever Black Cats officially or unofficially. At this point I will be, again, reporting you. You have been warned, reliable sourcing has been explained to you repeatedly and you choose to ignore it. Koncorde (talk) 00:50, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
 * you view of the above would be appreciated. I am trying to avoid further action, but it is clear Maxim will not accept normal sourcing requirements (literally any link on the internet will do for him) and was editing as an IP for at least part of this exchange.
 * The user is again trying to use unreliable sources that do not say the thing he is trying to insert into the article. For example, Hillam does not say that The Miners or others were actual nicknames, only that the available alternative names were "The Mackems", "The SOLs", "The Miners" and "The Light Brigade" as options in the poll conducted. He has also tried to insert this at the main Sunderland AFC page which is an FA.
 * I went through this article previously to clean up all sourcing, and where no reliable sources could be found I rewrote, refactored or removed the sentence in question. This has continued with his recent addition of the "Sunderland til I Die" show. I have no issue with relevant reliably sources information, though it should be well written and relevant to the article in question.
 * I have looked for any evidence saying, clearly, that the nickname was used (either in the press, media, or by the club or fans) but there is nothing concrete. Personally, I have no memory of the nickname prior to 2000 which is a sample of 1, but I am happy to be proven wrong. But so far I have drawn a blank and have explained above what I could find and what would be suitable sourcing for it to be added. Koncorde (talk) 01:16, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Have you heard of Ogden cigarette cards? It was a big thing in England in the first half of the 20th century, guess what? For Sunderland, they had a black cat in a Sunderland uniform.
 * The original Sunderland logo had a black cat on it! That nickname maybe wasn't as much in common use then as in the 21st century, but it was there, and that is the different.
 * This guy here insists on including the world "new nickname"... what was the old one? It was the first time Sunderland adopted an official nickname, and they went for one in use. Maxim.il89 (talk) 23:58, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
 * An animal being associated with a club is not evidence of a nickname. The "old nickname", was the ones used by the fans and press. You can argue about the wording of "old" "new" vs "first official", but you need reliable sources to back up those assertions. Nobody denies Sunderland have used the image of a Black Cat. The question is can you PROVE through reliable sources that it has been used as a nickname. Koncorde (talk) 00:05, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
 * "Sunderland's alternative name of the Black Cats is one which is known up and down the country, but it has only been the club's official nickname since 1997." - . Literally one of the sources I've added ages ago to the article and you choose to ignore! LITERALLY states how the name was known since before it was made official. Maxim.il89 (talk) 00:20, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

This is fascinating conversation. First off, we go for WP:V not "truth", i.e. if we have reliable sources stating something, that trumps the perceived or promoted "truth", especially from unreliable sources. In that sense, we should at least acknowledge The Guardian noting it came about around the turn of the millennium. In other news, I did a cheeky little n-gram search in BritEng for "black cats" which was relatively static until 2000 when it climbed to more than double its residual baseline. Coincidence? Perhaps. But I doubt it. But that's WP:OR, interesting nevertheless. This source says it was "official" nickname from 1997. And The Observer concurs. Hope that helps! The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!&#33;!&#33;) 08:05, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks RM. That mirrors what I generally found. Any use prior to 2000 was either informal (such as someone starting a publishing company for Sunderland with the name) or mentioned in passing as the name of the supporters club or club magazine (no date given, seems contradicted by lack of corroboration elsewhere so likely apocryphal or short term) or the black cat being used as an image on cigarette cards and various paraphernalia in the early parts of the 20th century before disappearing for decades, reappearing in the 70's post the '73 cup final, then disappearing between '77 and '97 when it started being used promotionally prior to / around the time of the poll (unclear if egg came before chicken). Koncorde (talk) 08:45, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Have you heard of Ogden cigarette cards? It was a big thing in England in the first half of the 20th century, guess what? For Sunderland, they had a black cat in a Sunderland uniform.
 * The original Sunderland logo had a black cat on it! That nickname maybe wasn't as much in common use then as in the 21st century, but it was there, and that is the different.
 * This guy here insists on including the world "new nickname"... what was the old one? It was the first time Sunderland adopted an official nickname, and they went for one in use. Maxim.il89 (talk) 23:57, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Prior to "Black Cats" the club was known as "The Rokerites", that's what the RS say. Your anecdotes are fascinating, but Wikipedia uses reliable sources (like The Guardian), not your personal research and thoughts.  However, this may soon be academic as you seem determined to edit war yourself to a block. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!&#33;!&#33;) 07:55, 18 December 2020 (UTC)