Talk:Suyab

Chinese sources
I need help in identifying and englishing several Chinese names mentioned in the Russian-language texts which I translate below:

"In 748 Suyab was destroyed by the military governor of Baichin (Beshbalik) whose name was Van Chenzian (Ван Чженцянь). The Chinese traveller Du Huan (Ду Хуань), who visited Suyab ca. 750, found among the ruins the still-functioning monastery Dayun (Даюнь), where Princess Tziaohe (Цзяохэ) used to dwell".

"The inscription [found by archaeologists in Suyab] mentions the governor's aide, whose name was Du Huai (Ду Хуай). He was in charge of the castle of Suyab in the 680s and erected fortified walls around the so-called Khitan quarter". --Ghirla-трёп- 19:49, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Questions for Eiorgiomugini
The version of the article endorsed by me is this one. I have no control over Eiorgiomugini's subsequent edits which spawn numerous questions, for instance:

1. What is a "Hu" merchant? The link leads us nowhere in particular.

2. Why should Suyab be replaced with Talas, and my external link to an academic reference be replaced with the reference to Eiorgiomugini's favorite Chinese book? The reference quoted by me alludes to Suyab and not Talas. I can tell the difference. I don't see why the Chinese reference should be preferred to the Kyrgyz one.

3. The western capital of the khaganate was Navekat, and it was excavated by Soviet archaeologists. I don't see why we should introduce the subject into this article with the name of Taskent, a then-obscure locality whose present name appeared in the 11th century.

4. I also can't see why we should reproduce unreadable hierogliphs every time we mention Talas. Please provide the Chinese spelling in the article about Talas (if you are so sure it will be tolerated there) and be done with it. This is English wikipedia, not the Chinese one.

5. Why do you keep replacing "abandoned" with "aabandoned" or "the Tang Dynasty" with "the China"? What is the China? The logic of these substitutions escapes me. --Ghirla-трёп- 21:11, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Your accustions would not withstanding, if you insisted that your reference (hope that you're not cheating with your source again) alludes to Suyab and not Talas you should quoted your sources right here, according to the original texts it actually refered to Talas than Suyab. I'm sorry but aabandoned was replaced by you. Eiorgiomugini 07:41, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

You are right, Xuanzang did mentioned Suyab (素叶水城), I was wrong before on the Xuanzang things, and its on ^ Xianlin, Ji (1985). Journey to the West in the Great Tang Dynasty Pages 25. Eiorgiomugini 09:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

6. Why 'Talas', a Kyrgyz city, is linked to and as 'Taraz', a Kazakh city? Talas and Taraz are two different cities located about a hundred km from each other, Talas being in the Talas valley and Taraz in the Kazakh steppe. Talas has had its name for a long time, while Taraz was a recent "return" of the name and product of historical elaboration. — Preceding Altynbek comment added by 109.201.170.22 (talk) 17:41, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Du huan and princess
The Chinese traveller Du Huan, who visited Suyab ca. 750, found among the ruins the still-functioning Buddhist monastery, where a Chinese princess used to dwell.

As far as I can tell there's no princess that ever married to the western qaghans nor dwell in sayab. Read The History of Chinese Heqin (ISBN 7-01-004828-2) by Cui Mingde. Eiorgiomugini 08:20, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Since you have access to Chinese sources, you may find the text of his account and check what he was talking about. --Ghirla-трёп- 09:09, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

The Chinese traveller Du Huan, who visited Suyab ca. 750, found among the ruins the still-functioning Buddhist monastery, where a Chinese princess used to dwell. Чжан Гуанда. Суе чэн цзинь ди као (О современном местоположении города Суяб) // Чжан Гуанда. Си юй ши ди цунгао чу бянь. Shanghai, 1995. Page 19.

I don't understand on this part, please provided ISBN for your book. Eiorgiomugini 09:10, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Not all books have ISBNs, you know. --Ghirla-трёп- 09:13, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I understand, but what does he said, what's the name for the princess ? Eiorgiomugini 09:15, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

It was a princess from the town 13 km away from Turfan. The town's name means "the river split in two". The Cyrillic spelling is Цзяохэ. What is the Chinese one? Please follow the link I provided. --Ghirla-трёп- 09:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Was she a princess from Jiaohe? Your phrasing seems to imply that Jiaohe was her name. --Ghirla-трёп- 09:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

If you really does care about the name, you should had provided details earlier from your source. Eiorgiomugini


 * Why don't you start a page about that city? --Ghirla-трёп- 09:37, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Look, Jiaohe is a title name, I believe it had little to do with the city, at least according to this journal right here. Eiorgiomugini 09:41, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Soghdians
Concerning this edit. Don't you agree that the city was settled primarily by Soghdians? --Ghirla-трёп- 09:45, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I agreed, in fact most of the city had insignificance Chinese and Turkic population. But the name was derives from Persian not Sogdian. Eiorgiomugini 09:46, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * How do you know the difference between these? Both are Iranian and very similar, in fact. --Ghirla-трёп- 09:47, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Look, at least there's a different dialects among the languages, so you're making something very controversy. Eiorgiomugini 09:48, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Reverting war
I'm trying to unravel the phrase "when the Chinese court decided to replace Sulu to the position of puppet qaghan Ashina Xian". What actually happened then? Was Sulu appointed a puppet khagan of the Turks instead of Ashina Xian? --Ghirla-трёп- 10:04, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Why? Do you really think the phrase is not good enough? Eiorgiomugini 10:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Sulu was appointed as the "Loyal and Obedient Qaghan". Eiorgiomugini 10:10, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I tried to rephrase it to make it more clear. --Ghirla-трёп- 10:27, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

What information do you miss here? --Ghirla-трёп- 10:29, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Please feel free to make discuss on the talk than making personal attack such as this one. Eiorgiomugini 10:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Concerning this edit. Why do you think that "13th century" (apparently 14th century) is better than "1300s"? --Ghirla-трёп- 10:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Why do you call this a compromise? --Ghirla-трёп- 10:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry, I had no idea what you are whining about, maybe you should changed the date yourself? Eiorgiomugini 10:35, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I tired to rephrase on Sulu to make it less vague, so please refrain yourself on reverting or making personal attacking warning on my talk. Eiorgiomugini 10:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Satisfaction
Well, I must said that this article is far from satisfied. Could anyone else please translate the cyrillic references into this English Wikipedia? Eiorgiomugini 11:00, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * what "cyrillic references"? We try to avoid non-English references for perfeclty mainstream statements that can easily be sourced to an English language publication, but if some particular point has been made by a Russian scholar, in Russian, there is absolutely nothing wrong with citing that publication. As a service to the reader, the titles cited may still be translated, and the authors names transliterated. At present, the references are partly transliterated and partly in Cyrillic. This is a straightforward formatting issue and not a cause for edit warring. dab (𒁳) 14:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm asking for a translation on the cyrillic used on the references for your information. Not avoiding non-English references for perfeclty mainstream statements. Eiorgiomugini 14:51, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * you could ask for that without all the edit-warring. really. If it's really urgent, ask for assistance on WP:RD/L. dab (𒁳) 15:18, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Issue
Eiorgiomugini 16:41, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) I had no idea why our friend Ghirlandajo here keep linking the article to Jiaohe, this link leads us nowhere in particular, it should be removed straightaway per WP:CONTEXT.
 * I will remove the wikilinks if it is annoying to you. --Ghirla-трёп- 16:56, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) It seemed to me that foreign languages are being tolerated right here, so why not the Chinese as had been removed by Ghirlandajo. I believe those removed character should be added back.
 * Foreign spellings may be helpful in the lead, as it helps our readers to identify the subject of the article. There is no guideline that allows to flood the text with hieroglyphs. --Ghirla-трёп- 16:56, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) After further read, Ashina Xian seemed to had extent some control over the city before Sulu took over, so I am thinking of added him back to the article as removed earlier by Ghirlandajo.
 * This is different from what you've been trying to say so far. Please provide the Turkic name for "Xian" so that I could double check your assertion. --Ghirla-трёп- 16:56, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) The image over the article are no in particular related to the subject itself, same goes to the very image such as the map of Tang or Gokturk-releated images, I'm thinking of removing it.
 * There is no guideline to determine which image is "particularly" related to the subject matter and which is not. I don't like articles without illustrations. The town was settled by Sogdians, so an image illustrating what they looked like is perfectly in order. --Ghirla-трёп- 16:56, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) "and probably also a 10th-century monastery with frescoes and inscriptions in Sogdian and Uyghur scripts." What does probably also meant? This parts of source made no specific comment over to the article and needed to be substantiated, does the so-called soivent archaeologist cannot differentiate from a monastery, or does the monastery never really existed?
 * If you follow the links to archaeological articles, each of them mentions the sprawling 10th-century complex of buildings. One article describes it in detail, although they are not certain about its purpose and have reservations about its identification as a Christian monastery. --Ghirla-трёп- 16:56, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) "As a testimony to Suyab's diverse and vibrant culture" This parts certainly needed to be rephrased and addressed properly, but it seemed to be rather redundant. What the heck does a testimony gonna do with a throbbing culture.
 * Please consult WP:IDONTLIKEIT and stop bickering about every line. It is pretty harmless. --Ghirla-трёп- 16:56, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) "During the reign of Tong Yabgu Qaghan and his father", I had noted Ghirlandajo had recently added about Tong's father controlling Suyab, what's the name for his father? As he was the successor of Shekui, I think I would removed the rphase added by Ghirlandajo and removed the source "Great Soviet Encyclopaedia, 3rd ed. Article "Turkic Khaganate" (since my book virtually covered all the passages over the article, and there's no need for a redundant and extra source.)
 * I'm really tired of discussing this article with you, especially as I often don't understand what you want from me. I could have written half a dozen new pages during the time I had to spend arguing with you. Please leave me alone. --Ghirla-трёп- 16:56, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

location of Suyab
I tried to find the location of Suyab on Google Earth using the description in the article [60 km north east from Bishkek, and 8 km southwest from Tokmok, in the Chui River valley, present-day Kyrgyzstan] and can not find anything that looks like it might be the ruins of the ancient city. I believe that the direction 60 km north east from Bishkek is incorrect, since that is in Kazakhstan.

The website www.fantasticasia.net [an adventure travel site] says that Suyab is 6 km south east of Tokmok. Looking in that approximate area on Google Earth I found what could be ruins at these coordinates: 42°47'0.63"N  75°19'58.03"E. I've done quite a bit more searching on line and in several atlases but haven't found any more information - actually, online I've found several other approximate locations that are different from that listed on this page.

Does anyone know if these coordinates are actually at the site of the ruins? If so, I think we should include them - and a picture of the satellite view of the site on the page. Dmbstudio 18:30, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Krasnorechenskoye
Are these the same or different places? Again, the location at the top of the article seems impossible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Benjamin Trovato (talk • contribs) 03:19, 23 November 2008 (UTC)